Nitro Setup

[masonsjax]

I usually prime the keg with one ounce of sugar, or hook up to straight co2 at 10-12 psi for a few days. It will stabilize after sitting on beergas for a while if it's not enough when first tapped. If it's too much, you'll get a glass of foam.

 

[IvanTheTerribrew]

Awesome thread! I have all the stuff for a nitro setup and the tap mounted, just need a tank and the beer to be ready. One question I have is what is your methods for under carbing your beers? Do you test the carb level with something?

I would guess, since I haven't done it yet, is to just look at a carbonation chart and select a low volume of CO2 and match the temp to the PSI. Leave it at that psi for a few days and then try it out.


- ISM NRP

 

[TAK]

^^ This is what I did. Set the PSI per the chart for your temp, and leave it there for a week or so. I tested the carb level with a picnic tap before I moved over to the nitro mix. It will seem like it's not carbed at all. Just a few bubbles coming out of solution, but no head, or at least that's what my first batch did. But swish a sample in you're mouth. If that turns into foam, your probably ready.

 

[Brewgirl84]

Help! Ok....So I got everything set up. Beergas 75% nitrogen 25% CO2 pushing a lightly carbonated (not sure exactly how carbonated as far as numbers go though) stout. all I am getting is a glass full of foam. I've tried it at 35 PSI, 30 PSI, and 20 PSI with the same results. Whats up?

 

[IvanTheTerribrew]

Help! Ok....So I got everything set up. Beergas 75% nitrogen 25% CO2 pushing a lightly carbonated (not sure exactly how carbonated as far as numbers go though) stout. all I am getting is a glass full of foam. I've tried it at 35 PSI, 30 PSI, and 20 PSI with the same results. Whats up?

My guess would be the beer was overcarbonated prior to using beer gas. You should try to have it carbed to 2.0 volumes or less. I'm just trying to get mine to pour well now, and haven't figured it out myself but I think mine is under carbonated. Did you try pushing it with less than 20 psi?




- ISM NRP

 

[Brewgirl84]

no. i'll try that next. please let me know what worked when you get yours figured out. any idea what i do if its overcarbed?

 

[masonsjax]

It's probably overcarbed. If so, you should leave it off the gas and pull the release valve a few times per day until it pours properly. Sometimes people think it's a glass of foam when it's pouring just fine because the tiny cascading bubbles are light colored and fill the glass until settling down. Does it settle after a few mins into a thin creamy head on top of a full pint? Or does the foam stick around for a while and eventually collapse into a partially filled glass?

 

[prandlesc]

For what it's worth, with o-ring sealed connections or angled/flare connections, it is completely unnecessary to tape the threads. The threads do not seal anything, it's the compression of the o-ring or the compression of the flare that seals. The threads merely provide the clamping force.

+1 on this.

A little soapy water will show that this is the case. One place to look at carefully help prevent leaks is the hose to barb connections. I switched to oetiker clamps from screw-type hose clamps for this high pressure set-up and they work great. I also upgraded my gas line to a heavier duty, more commercial version.

 

[Brewgirl84]

It's foam not a cascade. Actually. .....it looks/tastes/behaves about the same as it did when i was using CO2 with the stout faucet (restrictor plate in place). I'll try pulling the release valve a few times a day like you suggested. When/ if i do get it sufficiently de-carbed, what PSI should I set the beergas at?

 

[masonsjax]

It just needs to be enough pressure to break up the co2, and keep a little carb in solution. Mine seems to work well at anything over 20 psi, but my serving line is only about 3' long. I leave it set around 30psi to keep the carb level up a little more and it works well for me.

 

[andrhamm]

Find an online calculator to find the ideal hose length for your serving temp & pressure. Too short of a line can cause foam.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[masonsjax]

A short line won't cause foam on a nitro rig. Because of the diffusion plate in the stout faucet, the lines don't need to be balanced the same way a CO2 setup needs to be. You can basically go as short as is convenient for you.

 

[IvanTheTerribrew]

Update: success!


- ISM NRP

 

[IvanTheTerribrew]

no. i'll try that next. please let me know what worked when you get yours figured out. any idea what i do if its overcarbed?

Yeah like posted above just leave it disconnected and out of the fridge and keep purging the valve. As it warms up the CO2 will come out of solution easily and as you purge it it keeps filling up the headspace. I would do this until it's pretty empty of CO2. Then chill again, to a known temp and connect it to a set psi. Look up a carbonation chart and aim for like 1.8 volumes of CO2. Then set and forget it for 1 week.

After that week is done disconnect the CO2, connect the beer gas, and set your psi to 20 and go from there either up or down.

I set and forgot mine at 10 psi but only for like 3 days and it was too little carbonated. When I hooked up the beer gas it didn't work well.

I left it connected to beer gas for a few more days at 40 psi. My reasoning for this is I have 75/25 beer gas. So 25% of 40 is 10. Thus it's roughly the same pressure of CO2. After those days now I got the pour I listed above. I have it connected to a 4' line.


- ISM NRP

 

[JuanMoore]

Yeah like posted above just leave it disconnected and out of the fridge and keep purging the valve. As it warms up the CO2 will come out of solution easily and as you purge it it keeps filling up the headspace. I would do this until it's pretty empty of CO2. Then chill again, to a known temp and connect it to a set psi. Look up a carbonation chart and aim for like 1.8 volumes of CO2. Then set and forget it for 1 week.

After that week is done disconnect the CO2, connect the beer gas, and set your psi to 20 and go from there either up or down.

I set and forgot mine at 10 psi but only for like 3 days and it was too little carbonated. When I hooked up the beer gas it didn't work well.

I left it connected to beer gas for a few more days at 40 psi. My reasoning for this is I have 75/25 beer gas. So 25% of 40 is 10. Thus it's roughly the same pressure of CO2. After those days now I got the pour I listed above. I have it connected to a 4' line.


- ISM NRP

Glad to hear you got it working. FWIW the math for determining equivalent pressure is a little more complicated than that. Here's a really handy calculator for determining carbonation and equilibrium pressures when using blended gas-

http://mcdantim.mobi/easypsig.html

 

[mcwilcr]

Glad to hear you got it working. FWIW the math for determining equivalent pressure is a little more complicated than that. Here's a really handy calculator for determining carbonation and equilibrium pressures when using blended gas-

http://mcdantim.mobi/easypsig.html

I'm in the process if implementing my nitro setup right now as well. One thing I keep wondering about is if I use the easy volume calculator that I've seen you post in a few places, thanks for that by the way it is quite helpful, with the 35/65 blend that I have wouldn't it be just as easy to carb up to my desired volume with that? I assume the ideal pressure that the calculator generates is for equilibrium at your carbonation level right?

I will probably carb with straight co2 anyway because I have more and it's cheaper but I'm wondering why everyone says it is easier or better to do it that way?

 

[JuanMoore]

I'm in the process if implementing my nitro setup right now as well. One thing I keep wondering about is if I use the easy volume calculator that I've seen you post in a few places, thanks for that by the way it is quite helpful, with the 35/65 blend that I have wouldn't it be just as easy to carb up to my desired volume with that? I assume the ideal pressure that the calculator generates is for equilibrium at your carbonation level right?

I will probably carb with straight co2 anyway because I have more and it's cheaper but I'm wondering why everyone says it is easier or better to do it that way?

Yes, it shows the equilibrium pressure. You can carb with beer gas, but unless you're using a carb stone it takes a lot longer to reach equilibrium than with CO2, and as you mentioned it's also more expensive.

 

[mcwilcr]

Yes, it shows the equilibrium pressure. You can carb with beer gas, but unless you're using a carb stone it takes a lot longer to reach equilibrium than with CO2, and as you mentioned it's also more expensive.

Ok, that makes sense. So everything seems to indicate that at my 40 deg. Serving temperature I should force carb at about 1.4 psi co2. That's pretty low but would give me the 1.5 volumes I will be shooting for. Is that roughly what everyone else is doing or are people using a higher co2 pressure for a shorter period of time?

 

[IvanTheTerribrew]

Glad to hear you got it working. FWIW the math for determining equivalent pressure is a little more complicated than that. Here's a really handy calculator for determining carbonation and equilibrium pressures when using blended gas-

http://mcdantim.mobi/easypsig.html

Cool thanks. So if I'm getting this right: that calc states at 42*, 1.5 vol CO2, 25% CO2 blend, 7% alcohol, 0 altitude, I should have it around 54 psi, is that what I should have the nitro regulator set to? That seems really high.

Or is there something to that calculator I'm not understanding?


- ISM NRP

 

[JuanMoore]

Ok, that makes sense. So everything seems to indicate that at my 40 deg. Serving temperature I should force carb at about 1.4 psi co2. That's pretty low but would give me the 1.5 volumes I will be shooting for. Is that roughly what everyone else is doing or are people using a higher co2 pressure for a shorter period of time?

Not sure either way is more popular, plenty of people using each method. If you're really gentle racking, and ferment relatively cool, there will be nearly 1.0 vol in residual carbonation, so it doesn't take much to add another .5.

Cool thanks. So if I'm getting this right: that calc states at 42*, 1.5 vol CO2, 25% CO2 blend, 7% alcohol, 0 altitude, I should have it around 54 psi, is that what I should have the nitro regulator set to? That seems really high.

Or is there something to that calculator I'm not understanding?


- ISM NRP

You're understanding the calculator correctly, but 54 psi is too high for most systems.

Most nitro faucets work best within a certain pressure range, typically 25-35 psi. The gas blend you're using is known as G-mix, and is designed for serving Guinness under commercial settings. That's 1.2 vol, and ~ 34-36F, which works out to roughly 30 psi, or the center of the optimal range for nitro faucets. For serving at higher carb levels or higher temperatures than that, you'd ideally use a gas blend higher in CO2 (or a gas blender) so that the equilibrium pressure falls within that 25-35 psi range.

Unlike when serving on pure CO2, having the serving pressure equal to the equilibrium pressure is much less critical when using a gas blend, and you're unlikely to even notice the small changes in carbonation from having the serving pressure lower. This means that unless you're super picky about tiny variations in carbonation, you can keep the pressure at whatever works best for your faucet, even if you're using a low CO2 blend and the equilibrium pressure is significantly higher.

 

[Brewgirl84]

Yeah like posted above just leave it disconnected and out of the fridge and keep purging the valve. As it warms up the CO2 will come out of solution easily and as you purge it it keeps filling up the headspace. I would do this until it's pretty empty of CO2. Then chill again, to a known temp and connect it to a set psi. Look up a carbonation chart and aim for like 1.8 volumes of CO2. Then set and forget it for 1 week.

After that week is done disconnect the CO2, connect the beer gas, and set your psi to 20 and go from there either up or down.

I set and forgot mine at 10 psi but only for like 3 days and it was too little carbonated. When I hooked up the beer gas it didn't work well.

I left it connected to beer gas for a few more days at 40 psi. My reasoning for this is I have 75/25 beer gas. So 25% of 40 is 10. Thus it's roughly the same pressure of CO2. After those days now I got the pour I listed above. I have it connected to a 4' line.


- ISM NRP

I am in the process of trying this but, before I read you reply, I had been purging it several times day for a few days until there was consistently no air coming out when I purged (keg still in the kegerator at this point). I then hooked up the beer gas at 30 PSI and tried another pour. The first pour was ok and there was some cascading. The creamy nitro texture was not quite up to my standards though and the next pour came out with absolutely no head or cascading. So....not sure what that was about. Any ideas?

Now the keg has been out of the kegerator for about 24 hours and I have purged like you suggested but there doesn't seem to be any air coming out anymore. Is it ready to be chilled again?

Also....on more question. When you said you have it connected to a 4' line, you are talking about the beer line from the keg to the tap correct? Posts above had mentioned using a 12' line. Do you think it makes a difference?

 

[masonsjax]

The serving line length, from keg out post to the stout faucet, is much less important on a nitro setup. You don't need 12' lines and can basically go as short as you like.

Your beer sounds like it's sufficiently decarbed. You can probably hook it back up and it will start carbing up. You should see the cascade reappear in a few days.

 

[Brewgirl84]

The serving line length, from keg out post to the stout faucet, is much less important a nitro setup. You don't need 12' lines and can basically go as short as you like.

Your beer sounds like it's sufficiently decarbed. You can probsitting therehook it back up and it will start carbing up. You should see the cascade reappear in a few days.

Thanks so much for your help. I'm hooking it up to the CO2 for about a week. Then I'll switch it to beergas. When I find a good serving PSI with the beergas, do I leave it at that same PSI all day (when not serving?) Or do I need to turn it down when its just sitting there?

 

[masonsjax]

I wouldn't hook it back up to co2, it's very easy to overcarb again, especially in a week and considering you have some residual co2 still in solution. I'd just hook it to beergas at serving pressure (25-35 psi) and leave it be. No you don't turn the pressure down while not serving, the higher pressure wull maintain the low carb level you want, turning it down would let it go too flat.

 

[prandlesc]

Awesome thread! I have all the stuff for a nitro setup and the tap mounted, just need a tank and the beer to be ready. One question I have is what is your methods for under carbing your beers? Do you test the carb level with something?

"Undercarbing" is really just properly carbonating a stout, in this case. It's a combination of the pressure of your CO2 going into the keg and the temperature the beer is sitting at at during carbonation. Here's the table I use to determine how much pressure to use when carbonating and serving.

View attachment Force Carbonation Table - pdf.pdf

 

[Brewgirl84]

I put it on the beergas at 35 psi and finally got the pour I've been looking for two days in a row! We'll see what the future holds. I'll likely have more questions but thank you all for your advice so far!

 

[mcwilcr]

Ok, so this is my first attempt. I had the beer on co2 for about a week at 2-3 psi which should get me just over 1.5 volumes which is what I wanted and I can feel light carbonation on the tongue. I hooked up the 35/65 beer gas and set the pressure at 36 psi which is what the calculator told me for my serving temperature. This is what I got out of the stout faucet. Is there a reason I would need to be on the beer gas for a longer period of time? I turned up the pressure to 40 and no difference. Suggestions?

This is the faucet I have from kegconnection.

 

[masonsjax]

Probably a little undercarbed still. Did it cascade at all? Maybe your co2 regulator isn't accurate enough at less than 5 psi, or maybe it just needed more time. If you leave it on beergas it will finish carbing up, or you could try it for another day on co2 at like 10psi. Better undercarbed than overcarbed.

 

[mcwilcr]

Probably a little undercarbed still. Did it cascade at all? Maybe your co2 regulator isn't accurate enough at less than 5 psi, or maybe it just needed more time. If you leave it on beergas it will finish carbing up, or you could try it for another day on co2 at like 10psi. Better undercarbed than overcarbed.

Very little to almost none. Good thought on the regulator. I'll hook it back up to co2 and see what happens In a couple days.

 

[mcwilcr]

After another day on CO2 it's much better. Not quite where it should be yet but it seems like I was still under carbonated. I think I'm on the right track now.

 

[phreaky]

I like to carbonate my stouts at room temp. I find its easier to carb to 10-15 psi at 65 degrees than it is to carbonate to 1-3 psi at 40.

 

[TAK]

I like to carbonate my stouts at room temp. I find its easier to carb to 10-15 psi at 65 degrees than it is to carbonate to 1-3 psi at 40.

How long does this usually take at room temp? Still a week, or does it take longer?

 

[phreaky]

10 psi at room temp for 10-14 days gets it to perfect carb level. If I can't/don't want to wait, 15 psi for about 3-5 days gets it close enough to drink, but there's a chance of over carbing that way.

 

[mcwilcr]

Yeah, I can definitely see how that would be easier except that I keep my tanks in the keezer with the serving kegs so unless I got a separate tank just for that I an SOL as far as that option goes.

I got pretty close with the previous method and I expect by next weekend when I get into it again it should be just right by leaving it on mix gas at 35psi during the week.

Just need to figure out a method that works best for my setup.

 

[TAK]

I have an ordinary bitter that I just moved to nitro. It's my second keg I've done nitro with. It was carbed to maybe 1.6 volumes, same as the stout I did before this. The stout, after cascading, settled into a 1/2 inch or better head. This ordinary bitter is only settling int a 1/4 inch or less.

Should I try to up the volumes of CO2 and switch back to nitro? Will that increase the head at all, or is it just what it is?

 

[day_trippr]

In my ignorance of such matters, I'd think body would play a role in how beer takes to nitro. I've had a big old stout on nitro for the last couple of weeks (effin' wonderful, but that's not news ) and I can't imagine my American Wheat responding in the same manner...

Cheers!

 

[TAK]

I'm sure that body plays into it. FG, though not the only contributing factor to body perception, is the notable difference between these two kegs. The stout was something like 1.020, and the bitter is 1.008 (I wish it was higher, but that's another topic).

But that's what I'm wondering, if I increase the carbonation to make up for it, will it result in a larger head. Or, will it not all break out of solution. In a thin beer, I want to be sure I avoid the carbonic bite.

 

[masonsjax]

IME a slightly higher carbonation will give you a little more head on nitro. It can go from just enough to too much pretty easily so I'd leave it on nitro and just nudge the regulator up 5 psi and see how it is after a few days. No matter what you do with CO2, eventually the beer will regulate to the serving pressure. Like any tap, the ideal pressure can be different for each beer. Play with it and see what works for your setup.

 

[mcwilcr]

Taking her out for a spin.

 

[Brewgirl84]

Argg....No head or Cascade!

Just tried to pour my Stout with the beer gas and Nitro regulator after its been sitting at 40 degrees on 3-4 PSI CO2 for about a week. I put it on the Nitro, turned it up to 35 PSI as per recommendations on this thread and immediately tried to pour. The beer is fairly flat. It is a tiny bit carbed but no head and no cascade. Is this even possible at 35 PSI or does it mean that the Beer gas is somehow not making it into the keg? Or do you all think I just need to leave it on the CO2 longer?