Newbie problem: Natural yeast, 5 lbs of sugar, raw local cider

[yeastpoopshardcider]

I put 5 gallons of unpasteurized local cider into primary fermentation on or around March 5th. I decided to allow the natural yeast to run wild so I did not add any yeast to the cider, but I did add 5 lbs of sugar (sugar slowly heated with 1 gallon of the cider and then returned to the pail). I then left the cider alone, keeping it in an area between 60 and 75 degrees for about 2 weeks and then moved into an area that was closer to 60 degrees. As the ferocious burping slowed down, at about 3 weeks, I began to worry about leaving the cider in primary too long. So, without testing it with a hydrometer, I moved the cider into my secondary glass carboy. However, this process caused the cider to become jostled (rookie mistake) and so I was left with quite a bit of sediment at the bottom of the carboy. I consulted with my local beer and wine store and they suggested moving the cider again (this time with an auto-siphon) leaving the sediment behind. I did this and put in 5 camden tablets (upon their suggestion) to lower the potential dangers of moving the cider around too much. Now for my question.

At this point, I took a sample of the cider and put it in my hydrometer. It is around the 60 mark, which means 1.06? Now, from what I understood at the store, 5 lbs of sugar would have increased my original gravity to maybe 1.09 or 1.1 and 1.06 would have been my OG without adding sugar. Does that sound correct? What should I do now? Is a month too long for the natural yeast to continue working on the sugar? Should I move the carboy to a warmer spot than my basement? I mean, it already tastes great, but its very sweet with a kick. Do I have to add yeast (I really don't want to)? Can I bottle it now and keep it refrigerated so the bottles don't blow up?

So many questions, but I'm very new at this. Am I overthinking it?

 

[Daze]

racking was not a mistake and the sediment dropping out is a normal result from racking. Yes .06 is still a lot of sugar and it may take quite a wile to get it eaten down. As long as it is still active, I would just let it continue fermenting.

 

[outstretched]

I would guess it is only about 1/2 way done fermenting depending on the strain of yeast your apples provided. It's hard to say what the attenuation of the yeast will be, but I would guess at least 10% which would be a gravity of about 1.030 (roughly because of no official OG).

1. Sounds about right for the approximate gravity of apple juice and sugar mixed.
2. Add a yeast packet. Your brew shop had you kill all the yeast that was in there when you added the Camden Tablets.
3. I would be surprised if your yeast continued to ferment since they are probably dead or very limited and not reproducing.
4. Your temperature is fine. Don't move it unless you have to.
5. Add yeast if you want it to have a higher kick. (See previous answers)
6. If you do bottle fill a 20 oz bottle and check it to make sure it doesn't continue to ferment over time. If it does you might want to pasteurize your bottles.

 

[Daze]

2. Add a yeast packet. Your brew shop had you kill all the yeast that was in there when you added the Camden Tablets.
3. I would be surprised if your yeast continued to ferment since they are probably dead or very limited and not reproducing.

I would not add a yeast packet unless the fermenting stops and the SG is still well above .03. Yes campden and wild yeast don't go well together, but he had 5 gallons of active ferment when he threw in the campden. Thats like throwing a grenade in to a crowded room, it is not going to take out everyone.

In fact I think the idea that "campden kills wild yeast" is a myth. I think campden inhibits wild yeast and allows the desired strain of yeast that you add to take hold. If there is one thing I have learned in all my brewing is that short of pasteurizing, yeast are almost impossible to kill, wild or not.

 

[yeastpoopshardcider]

Okay, it is now 23 days later and the activity has gone almost to zero ... Does that mean the camden did kill my wild yeast? Do I have to add artificial yeast or do I have other options? I really don't want to pasteurize the cider and I don't want to fundamentally change the way my cider would have turned out without adding cider ...

 

[Daze]

after 23 days it might be done what is the SG??

 

[scott1147]

I would take an SG reading. With 5 lbs. of sugar you should be pretty alcoholic (10% ish) and it takes a long time to get there. I put 5 lbs. of brown sugar in my cider and let condition in the secondary for two to three months to let it get all the way down to 1.005 ish. And that is with English cider yeast. I would let it go for a while longer. Patience is a virtue rewarded with cider. You also don't want to create bottle bombs by pulling it too early and having it ferment more in the bottles.

Just because the stopper isn't bubbling doesn't mean that it is done fully fermenting. Good luck! Let us know how it turns out. Either way you will have a delicious batch!

 

[scott1147]

By the way - if you do take some SG readings for consecutive days and they turn out to be exactly the same and higher than you like you will need to repitch some yeast. It will take more time, but your cider should not be compromised as long as you are being sanitary.

Cheers!

 

[yeastpoopshardcider]

What is the best way to take samples out for readings without contaminating the cider?

 

[hillybilly]

What is the best way to take samples out for readings without contaminating the cider?

I use a wine thief and it works great. You could sanitize a piece of hose and siphon some out or sanitize and use your auto siphon to get some out. hilly

 

[divi2323]

Your campden likely killed your wild yeast. Some strains of wild yeast are very fragile and are easily killed. Daze is right in that campden inhibits growth of unwanted yeast but campden is used to kill off bacteria as well as rogue yeast strains. The strains that are used for brewing are quite immune to it and thus makes it perfect for alcohol production.

But... Wild strains don't have the rapid growth properties of cultured strains and that's why they take forever to kick of naturally. Ergo, adding campden has likely stopped your wild fermentation .

There is nothing wrong with pitching a pack of cider, wine, or champagne yeast to get the results you're looking for. You aren't making anything unnatural, you're merely increasing your chances of success by introducing a known tested yeast strain.

The last thing is the alcohol tolerance of whatever strain you are using could also have been reached. As alcohol by volume increases, campden effectiveness also increases. If your wild yeast poops out at 6-7% (likely), then your finished product may be done.

 

[yeastpoopshardcider]

I waited a month after putting in camden tablets and racking and now the hydrometer is reading closer to 50 or 1.05 (down from about 1.06). It tastes great, but I have a feeling the sugar is still uneaten by the yeast. I have no problem drinking it like this, but would I have a problem if I bottled it that way? In other words bottled it when the process is not quite done but the yeast has slowed down tremendously?

 

[divi2323]

If its dropped only 10 pts in a month, something is wrong. Either fermenting temp is too high/low, your yeast is dead etc. Pitch some yeast and it should finish in a week or two tops.

 

[Fizzycist]

That looks like a hand lettered hydrometer. Did you calibrate that yourself?

 

[yeastpoopshardcider]

I did not calibrate it myself, I bought it used at my local shop. It is just an older model. I don't particularly want to add yeast because I don't know which ones would be least likely to affect the cider. I wanted to do this as naturally as possible. It tastes great already, what stops me from just leaving it as it is?

 

[fbangie]

Not a thing....if you like it then it's a success, bottle it. Not sure if I have this right, sounds like it's in the 6% ABV range and pretty sweet.

 

[divi2323]

I think whatever wild yeast that took your batch to town was a low tolerance yeast. You run three risk of bottle bombs by bottling it now. If a bigger strain takes over while in the bottle, you have a ticking time bomb of a mess waiting for you.

If you want to keep it sweet and not carbonated. Add sorbate and bottle. If you want it sweet and carbonated you're going to want to do some research on restarting fermentation and stopping it where you want it.

 

[outstretched]

You could always make another starter from wild yeast and give it another go?

 

[roadymi]

If you are satisfied with the way your cider is now and you want to bottle.............I would suggest filling a plastic soda bottle to use as a monitoring device. If the soda bottle builds pressure and becomes hard you know you will need to pasteurize or at the least refrigerate the remainder of your bottles because fermentation has continued or restarted.

 

[yeastpoopshardcider]

Not a thing....if you like it then it's a success, bottle it. Not sure if I have this right, sounds like it's in the 6% ABV range and pretty sweet.

I didn't take OG ... just a mid-process gravity ... but I would say that sounds right. It is still sweet.

 

[yeastpoopshardcider]

I think whatever wild yeast that took your batch to town was a low tolerance yeast. You run three risk of bottle bombs by bottling it now. If a bigger strain takes over while in the bottle, you have a ticking time bomb of a mess waiting for you.

If you want to keep it sweet and not carbonated. Add sorbate and bottle. If you want it sweet and carbonated you're going to want to do some research on restarting fermentation and stopping it where you want it.

What is the effect of sorbate?

 

[divi2323]

Sorbate will halt further fermentation of the yeast.

 

[yeastpoopshardcider]

So, it sounds as though my yeast was killed off by the camden tablets, and the general consensus is that it does not taste good enough yet. So ... I have to do something.

a) I have about 2 cups of cider that never came in contact with the camden tablets, it is reading 1.04 (down from the 1.06 that it tested about a month into fermentation). That is in contrast to the bulk of my cider that is testing at 1.05. Could I add the two cups to the 4 gallons or so? Would that cause the fermentation process to start up again?

b) The reason I wanted to go with wild yeast was because I like to do things as they would have been down 300 years ago. But since I clearly messed it up by using the camden tablets (which I didn't want to use either), I now must do something: either a) if possible or b) ... which is what exactly? I don't want to add a yeast that will significantly change the makeup of my cider. I've had hard ciders that I really haven't liked ... and I believe those used champagne yeast. The only brand that I can point to having disliked immensely is Original Sin. I hate that stuff. I don't know if that helps at all.

 

[divi2323]

Have someone send you a yeast culture from a natural ferment they did AMD ended up saving and washing the yeast culture. That's about the only thing you can do short of waiting for your concoction to turn to vinegar.

There are millions of different strains of yeast that can take over a brew. Just because you add yeast that's cultured doesn't mean that it isn't done naturally. You're merely removing variables. Guaranteed 300 years ago they had so much vinegar it would make you puke. Did you stomp the apples with a horse trough press? Did you simply rinse a wooden barrel and add your must? Did you just leave said barrel out in the open for flies to rummage through and not use an airlock?

Most of the way cider is made today is to ensure success. I'm not a fan of letting 5 gallons of work turn to vinegar, so I'm of the mindset to let the science of today to the work. The montrachet or Nottingham or red star yeast you might not want to use will produce the results you want. In my opinion I think the way you finish your cider has more of an effect on it than the yeast profile you put in to it.

 

[divi2323]

sorry, duplicate post