Newbie ? about wine making with real fruit

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Techy

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Hey all...I've just started my journey into some very very basic wine making but have used juices / concentrates and not real fruit.

I am looking at making a strawberry wine but as you prob are aware you can't really find strawberry juice to start with so you are left with extracting juice from the fruit. Everything I have read and watched on the web is mashing the berries in a pot along with sugar / water and cooking it at a low temp (I assume this is for pasteurization or whatever to kill the bacteria and wild yeast).

My question is this...wouldn't I be able to extract the juice from the berries using my juicer and then taking that juice and put it under a low temp on the stove to add sugar / water (basically enough to get rid of as much bacteria as possible)? Then transfer to primary fermentation vessel let it come down to room temp and add my yeast and go from there? I apologize for the newb question but it would seem this would be easier then straining the juice in the original method.

Thanks....
 
Hi Techy - and welcome. Not necessarily what everyone would do but here's my method. Pick or buy your berries and freeze them. Then allow the berries to thaw. The freezing crystallizes the water in the fruit and those crystals burst the fruit cells allowing far more juice to flow. No need to cook fruit and really no need to juice fruit if juicing means grinding the seeds (which tend to add unnecessary bitterness). Cooking (heating) helps set pectins and unless you really want to make jam or jelly you don't want to set the pectins. You are , after all making wine, not brewing beer.
To help further break down the pectins I would add pectic enzyme (NOT pectins: remember you are not making jam) but the enzyme that breaks those protein chains). I might add this enzyme about 12 hours before I pitch the yeast because alcohol denatures this enzyme and so neutralizes it.

While there is a good argument to allow some bacteria and some wild yeast to work on your fruit for a day or two* most folk on this forum prefer to be in complete control over their wines. One way of eliminating those "volunteer" microbes is to add K-meta to your fruit juice. K-meta or Potassium Meta-BiSulfite (can also be bought in tablet form called Camden tablets - but then you pay for the filler), when dissolved in the juice or in water will produce sulfur dioxide as a gas and SO2 is a powerful bactericide, so don't hammer home a bung and airlock to prevent the gas from escaping and do wait 24 hours after adding the K-Meta before you pitch (add) your yeast of choice. If you don't the SO2 will eliminate a significant proportion of your yeast colony.
* The argument is that indigenous yeast and even some bacteria are going to provide your wine with some interesting flavors but they are going to be completely overwhelmed when you add billions of yeast cells, and while not every yeast strain is literally a killer strain, all yeast strains create an environment that best suits them and does not best suit competitors for the sugars and nutrients. Wine ain't beer and wine is far more forgiving and open to diversity than beer.

All that said, IMO, you want to use as little (read NO) water as possible. Diluting fruit juice does not usually make for a good wine. So you may need about 10 lbs of berries to express about 1 gallon of juice. Too little acidity will allow the strawberry color to become orange or even golden. And I think you want to ferment at higher (relatively speaking) rather than lower temperatures to help "fix" the color. Good luck!
 
@bernardsmith Instead of freezing fresh fruit and then thawing...can I just buy frozen berries to begin with?

Also, I was going to use the heating process (not boil) just enough to kill bacteria so I wouldn't have to use sulfites...is this not possible to do? I know I would prob need to add pectic enzyme along with yeast nutrient. I like to try and use as little additives as possible.

Again, not trying to question your response as you know way more than I do on this subject just trying to learn if there are any "alternative" ways that I can accomplish similar results.

Thanks....
 
No problem... There is always more than one way to solve a problem and the way you prefer is the best way for you.
Using frozen fruit, whether you freeze the fruit or someone else does does not really matter. The critical element is that the fruit is frozen and then thawed. The only critical thing is the quality of the fruit. If commercially frozen fruit is made with top notch fruit then they have saved you much time and effort and space in your freezer. If they use only second rate fruit then that saving may cost you in terms of flavor.
As to pasteurizing the fruit to kill the bacteria if that is what you want to do we still live in a relatively free market society and no one will hold you back. Upstate NY where there is state (and I think federal) law in place to compel orchards and the like to pasteurize juice they sell (to kill e-coli. listeria and other pathogens) they tend to use UV pasteurization to avoid heat. But hey! This is your wine. And the berries you buy frozen are almost certainly bacteria free: the cost of a recall both in terms of $$$ and of reputation is enough , I suspect , to compel any commercial food processing plant to take all precautions necessary to ensure that their products are bacteria (and so yeast) free.
 
@bernardsmith So if I am understanding the second part of your latest post correctly, you are basically saying most likely all commercially sold frozen fruit are somehow pasteurized or whatever so that they probably do not contain any wild yeast or bacteria? Thus allowing me to skip the entire heat method and basically the addition of camden tablets?

If I am understanding correctly...basically all that is needed to get started is thaw / mash / strain / add pectic enzyme and nutrient / yeast and sit back and wait for primary fermentation to get done. Can it be that simple?
 
To the first part, yes that's my thinking. To the second part, I don't know that you need to mash the fruit. Thawed fruit is quite 'mashed' and if you simply pour the fruit into a painter's filter bag and allow that to macerate under the juice the yeast will get to all the sugars in the fruit and after a week or so you can remove the bag without crushing any of the seeds which may contain a great deal of tannin. I would allow the fruit to sit in the primary for at least a week and allow the bag to drain (without necessarily squeezing it) into the primary and then rack everything once the gravity has dropped to about 1.005.
 
I have been making fruit wines for over thirty years now on and off.
This is my method.

For one gallon of wine use:

3 lbs. frozen then thawed Strawberries
3 lbs. sugar
2 tsp. citric acid
Yeast

Strawberries have no pectin so there is no need for pectic enzyme.

Place the thawed strawberries, citric acid and sugar in a 2 gal bucket and add 3 quarts of boiling water to the bucket. Stir until the sugar is dissolved while mashing the berries against the side of the bucket.
When the temp has dropped to room temp, add the yeast and cover with a lid and airlock, or plastic wrap.
Stir and mash daily being sure utensils are clean and sanitized.
After 7 days, strain with muslin into a demijohn or gallon jug, top up to within one inch of the top and add the airlock.
Leave for a month then rack into another jug, top up, and add the airlock.
After another month the fermentation should be finished. You can bottle the wine now.
This produces an excellent wine that is medium dry. For a sweeter wine add sugar prior to bottling as you do not want the extra alcohol because of the lack of acid and body to support this.

Hope this helps :)
 
DeeEnvy said:
Strawberries have no pectin so there is no need for pectic enzyme.
Click to expand...

Of course strawberries have pectin- you can make jam out of them- but less than something like oranges. you may not need pectic enzyme using such a small amount per gallon of wine, but it won't hurt to use some, when you use more fruit per gallon. I use 6 pounds of strawberries per gallon, and definitely need to use some pectic enzyme.

Anyway, one thing I think would be a mistake is to boil/cook the strawberries. Not just because you'd set the pectin, but think of the difference between strawberries that are cooked (like in jam or pie) vs a fresh strawberry. Or a cooked apple like in apple pie vs a fresh crisp apple. Heating fruit changes not just the pectin structure, but also changes the flavor.
 
Yooper said:
Of course strawberries have pectin- you can make jam out of them- but less than something like oranges. you may not need pectic enzyme using such a small amount per gallon of wine, but it won't hurt to use some, when you use more fruit per gallon. I use 6 pounds of strawberries per gallon, and definitely need to use some pectic enzyme.

Anyway, one thing I think would be a mistake is to boil/cook the strawberries. Not just because you'd set the pectin, but think of the difference between strawberries that are cooked (like in jam or pie) vs a fresh strawberry. Or a cooked apple like in apple pie vs a fresh crisp apple. Heating fruit changes not just the pectin structure, but also changes the flavor.
Click to expand...
Sorry. I should have said Strawberries have very little pectin. This is why you have to add it to make jam.
As I have not had one bit of haze in my strawberry wines with my particular recipe, I see no reason to use it. Of course it doesn't hurt to add it and it is up to you if you do.
Other wines it is necessary, but this one it is not.

Have you tried not using it for strawberry wine? I can see with 6 lbs you may have enough to create a slight haze. I have made 5 gal batches using 15 lbs of strawberries that created a crystal clear wine. No pectic enzymes. I also understand your qty is more concentrated which could be an issue.

I agree with the cooking and boiling. The only wine I have made that is boiled is banana. Now that is a good wine!
 
I use frozen berries when I make strawberry wine. They tend to completely disintegrate as they ferment, so you'll want something like a grain bag used for beer making to use as a screen when pressing. Also, as @bernardsmith mentioned, the seeds will add a tannic finish to the wine that can be fined away with some gelatin.

Also worth mentioning is that I do not add water or citric acid to the strawberries. The pH of my batch that just finished fermenting was a decent 3.65. The TA typically runs 10-11g/L which is fine for where I backsweeten to. I'll make final measurements and adjustment if needed, but I'd advise to be careful about adding the acid unless it is needed.

As a side note, I bought containers of strawberry puree this year rather than whole or sliced strawberries as I've done in the past. The puree buckets were cheaper and thawed quickly, plus they removed the seeds also! Win-win-win.
 
jgmillr1 said:
The pH of my batch that just finished fermenting was a decent 3.65.
Click to expand...

jgmillr1. I am guessing you don't have any problems with loss of color with that level of acidity. Many makers of strawberry wine complain that their must suggests a beautiful bright red color but they find this color drops off and they have a muddy orange wine. My strawberry wines stay deep strawberry colored even a year after bottling.
But your TA sounds a little high to me. That would make your wine quite tart. Do you balance this tartness by significant back sweetening?
 
Thanks everyone for your assistance....I am trying to nail down my method and so far I am still wondering about 1. Adding water or no water and 2. If I do add water is it hot water, boiling water, etc

Another question I have is this (trying to make do with utensils I already have) is it possible to strain the liquid from the mash / berries by using a fine mesh strainer into another vessel / pot instead of having to use cheesecloth, etc?

The yeast I was considering for my first time batch would be Red Star Montrachet...good idea?
 
bernardsmith:
Yes, I typically see some bleaching of the wine but I've attributed this to being a little heavy handed with sulfites. It would be a good experiment to split off some must from a batch and try out a few processes to enhance the color. I've got a spectrophotometer that can compare the absorption spectrum between the batches. Next year.

I'm searching for a bottle or photo of last year's batch for comparison. I'll post a photo of this year's once it is bottled at the end of May. Certainly a deeper color is desirable and more appealing. I'll double check the TA, but I do back-sweeten to 5-6% which is more than enough to balance the tartness. I prefer dry wines, but you gotta make what people like.

Techy said:
Another question I have is this (trying to make do with utensils I already have) is it possible to strain the liquid from the mash / berries by using a fine mesh strainer into another vessel / pot instead of having to use cheesecloth, etc?
Click to expand...

Get a grain bag used for beer making. It is perfect for this.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Techy said:
Thanks everyone for your assistance....I am trying to nail down my method and so far I am still wondering about 1. Adding water or no water and 2. If I do add water is it hot water, boiling water, etc

Another question I have is this (trying to make do with utensils I already have) is it possible to strain the liquid from the mash / berries by using a fine mesh strainer into another vessel / pot instead of having to use cheesecloth, etc?

The yeast I was considering for my first time batch would be Red Star Montrachet...good idea?
Click to expand...

I add water (and sugar), since strawberries have been a bit too acidic for me; but I do use 6 pounds per gallon so that's probably why. I add the sugar to get the ABV I want.

Straining with a mesh strainer won't work well- it'll clog in less than a minute. Then you have to get a sanitized spoon and scrape it out, over and over. It'll work, but be time consuming. I get a fine/medium mesh brewing bag and put my strawberries in there loosely, and then just remove that when I move the wine to secondary. Or, you could strain it through a grainbag or a fine cheesecloth (sanitized of course).
 
Yooper said:
I add water (and sugar), since strawberries have been a bit too acidic for me; but I do use 6 pounds per gallon so that's probably why. I add the sugar to get the ABV I want.

Straining with a mesh strainer won't work well- it'll clog in less than a minute. Then you have to get a sanitized spoon and scrape it out, over and over. It'll work, but be time consuming. I get a fine/medium mesh brewing bag and put my strawberries in there loosely, and then just remove that when I move the wine to secondary. Or, you could strain it through a grainbag or a fine cheesecloth (sanitized of course).
Click to expand...

@Yooper

Thanks for the info on the water. Is there any chance you would assist me with scaling down your recipe to say a gallon size? I'd like to start a small batch to ensure I am on the right track if possible.

For mesh brewing bag would something like this work or is it too big: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00U4Z8E04/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
 
Last edited by a moderator:
But as Jack Keller says (of his own recipes?) strawberry wine CAN be quite thin. That's why you really do need to increase the amount of fruit. Three pounds of fruit per gallon is like flavored water in my book. If you wouldn't choose to drink the must because of its flavor it won't taste any better when all the sugar has been fermented out, unless that is the only reason you want the wine is for the buzz. No one who makes wine from grapes adds water, do they? Grape juice itself is not considered "too concentrated" to drink without drowning it in water? It's possible that upstate NY hand picked strawberries are less acidic than the ones available to Yooper but Keller's recipes in general are way too thin for my palate.
 
@bernardsmith

I understand what your saying in regards to the wine being too thin. I'd rather increase how much fruit I use vs add another juice like grape. I see a lot of recipes for gallon batches doing 4lbs to 2lbs of sugar with a gallon of water. I guess that gives me a good starting point unless you have other thoughts?
 
Can't speak about all wine makers on this forum but most wine makers I know and wine makers on other forums aim for a starting gravity of about 1.090 and so a wine with an ABV of about 12%. Rather than create a recipe that ignores the sugar content of the fruit you might want to determine how much sugar to add based on the gravity of the juice you produce in the context of the amount of water you need to add. That's why the concept of "recipes" in wine making doesn't make a great deal of sense. Process is everything. That and the quality of ingredients. But hey! whatever floats your boat, as they say.
 
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Techy said:
@bernardsmith

I understand what your saying in regards to the wine being too thin. I'd rather increase how much fruit I use vs add another juice like grape. I see a lot of recipes for gallon batches doing 4lbs to 2lbs of sugar with a gallon of water. I guess that gives me a good starting point unless you have other thoughts?
Click to expand...

That's probably a really good place to start. Strawberries don't have a ton of natural sugar in them, so 2 to 2.5 pounds per gallon of sugar seems about right. I'd dissolve the sugar in some very warm water and add that to the fermenter over the strawberries in a bag. Then stir stir stir until you've got a nice mixture, and take an SG reading. As bernard said, 1.090 is a good place to end up. For lighter fruit wines, I go with 1.085-1.090, usually 1.085, so that's really close. Somewhere in there is perfect. If you're under 1.085, you'll want to add a bit more sugar but if you're at 1.085 or above, that is great.
 
Can someone recommend a decent hydrometer to start off with so I can start doing gravity readings?
 
Techy said:
Can someone recommend a decent hydrometer to start off with so I can start doing gravity readings?
Click to expand...

I think they are all about the same, really. They aren't really very technical. They have "special" ones for finishing gravity, but you don't want that. You just want a regular one that goes from .990-1.100 or so.
 
Techy said:
@bernardsmith

I understand what your saying in regards to the wine being too thin. I'd rather increase how much fruit I use vs add another juice like grape. I see a lot of recipes for gallon batches doing 4lbs to 2lbs of sugar with a gallon of water. I guess that gives me a good starting point unless you have other thoughts?
Click to expand...

I just started a 1 gal of strawberry last night, I used 4lb of frozen then thawed crushed berries and still had to add water. Strawberry doesn't offer up much juice, you'll need to get some volume from somewhere, either the tap or grape juice. Used nearly 3lb of sugar, the berries were a bit tart.
 
A_McG said:
I just started a 1 gal of strawberry last night, I used 4lb of frozen then thawed crushed berries and still had to add water. Strawberry doesn't offer up much juice, you'll need to get some volume from somewhere, either the tap or grape juice. Used nearly 3lb of sugar, the berries were a bit tart.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the insight...really appreciate it. I just picked up a bag of frozen berries at the store today. What did the your "recipe" consist of method wise? Basically how did you make your batch of strawberry wine if you don't mind me asking?
 
I reheated the berries with a bit of water on the stove. Don't boil it, just keep it warm. Boiling does odd things to fruit when making wine. I crushed up the berries and added my sugar, when I had a nice sweet jam flavor I poured into my bucket. Filled up with water to 1.25 gal, likely leaving a lot of pulp behind and want a full gal of finished wine.

Getting a gravity reading was tough with all the pulp but I'm around 1.100 I also added yeast energizer, wine tannin, and citric acid blend. (Used the recommended amount on the label, tested acid with kit) and then stirred in crushed campen tablet to kill anything in it as I didn't get to boil temp.

Pitched a full packet of red star premier blanc the next day, had good success with it in blueberry wine. It's bubbling away and smelling great.

Here's a pic of when I stirred it this morning
 

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I made my first wine just over a week ago (Apple) and am now fermenting my second wich is
Pineapple-Mango so I must agree it is very hard to keep the hands out of the cookie jar!!!
:)
 
Yes I printed out several of Jacks recipes! My pineapple wine was Jacks recipe, Just added
32oz of Organic Mango juice as I was a bit short of Pineapple. Seems to taste ok so far.
 

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