Newb Questions

[Sissy907]

Hi everyone. I sure hope I don't annoy anyone with a question that has been asked before, but I haven't seen it yet, so:
I'm curious, I see so many recipes and videos saying to "add water" and others say to use "distilled water." Are they using these terms interchangeably, or do some swear by one or the other? I am starting to stress myself out with it!
I have 5 gallons of wild blackberry/blueberry wine I used distilled water with, and the recipe I was looking at for the 3 gallon batch of watermelon/peach just says "add water."

 

[mredge73]

Distilled water has no natural salts/minerals; yeast need certain minerals to reproduce and water this clean will tend to lower your PH.
If you are making your wine from a kit this is fine as all the minerals you need have already been added to the juice.
If you are making fruit wine from scratch you will need to treat your water first or use something that already has a good mineral profile like bottled spring water.

 

[rhoadsrage]

As you can imagine there are many books written about water chemistry, and equally as many strong opinions on the internet. The most important thing with water is not to have any chlorine or chlorinates in your water.

So I use basic filtered city tap water, but bottled water from the store is fine aswell. Distilled water means it has all the mineral removed. Yeast need some minerals to grow/florish but to much of some minerals will give off flavors. So if you have really hard water, you can dilute it with distilled water to cut down on the mineral content.

Do you use well water or city water?

 

[Sissy907]

I have city water but I can use it from the fridge which is filtered. We do have a ridiculously expensive filter system that was installed on the house several years ago, but it isn't working properly so...

What would I treat my water with if I were to use distilled water? Is it ok to use any old bottled water? Is it ok to just use tap water? Do I need to boil it first? See what I mean about driving myself crazy? LOL

It is a kit in the sense that my husband ordered all the gear needed to make wine in a "kit," but no actual fruit/puree etc. I used berries my girlfriend collected out of her yard, and a couple bags of frozen blueberries from the store. I think it is ready to be back sweetened and allowed to finish clearing before bottling. Of course, I am kinda winging it though. I'm loosely following a video from youtube, but it kinda left some things out, so I am making that up out of all the stuff I have read.

~Alli

 

[mredge73]

Why are you adding water? Sounds like you already fermented it; are you just topping off?

At this point it really doesn't matter what you use as long as it taste good and has no chlorine.
The fridge filter is a carbon filter and will remove chlorine. However, I would just use regular distilled water at this point.


FYI
Treating distilled water or RO water requires a bit of water chemistry knowledge and you will need a variety of salts and precision instrumentation.
Don't bother with this until you feel that you are ready.
This is a recent article for beer water, wine water isn't that much different:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/importance-brewing-water.html

 

[Sissy907]

Oh I am not adding water to my current batch.
I am asking about the water I use to start my next batches. This batch called for distilled water and some of the recipes for the batch of watermelon/peach I want to use just say "add water" and I wasn't sure what method was right. I do not want to mess up anything that I actually spent money for fruit, free ingredients aren't going to hurt my feelings as much, ya know?

 

[Kharnynb]

with water, there's 2 things.

using "normal" water, bottled, tap or otherwise water with minerals, you have to hope that the mineral content and balance are decent enough and chlorine isn't too bad(treat with campden tablets if needed)

Using distilled water and adding minerals, meaning you "make" your own water profile.
You can check the water forum for more info on this.

 

[mredge73]

Oh I am not adding water to my current batch.
I am asking about the water I use to start my next batches. This batch called for distilled water and some of the recipes for the batch of watermelon/peach I want to use just say "add water" and I wasn't sure what method was right. I do not want to mess up anything that I actually spent money for fruit, free ingredients aren't going to hurt my feelings as much, ya know?

Look for "Spring Water" in the water section of your store; this will have a unique mineral content based on it's original source and will be chlorine free.
It is harder than regular drinking water (has a higher mineral content) but must have a really balanced profile to be marketable to the general public.

"Drinking Water" is a good second best; this is RO water with "minerals added for flavor". You don't know what minerals were added but you don't really care at this point.

Tap water with chlorine removed will also work just fine in most cases if it taste good to you. Carbon filter or treat with campden tablets (needs to sit overnight).

Last but not least, you can dive head first into water chemistry using distilled or RO water. Will need some CACL, GYPSUM, and epson salts. Build your own unique water profile using one of the available online spreadsheets.

Good luck.

 

[Sissy907]

Thanks guys! Think I will be starting this watermelon/peach batch today! <3

 

[Sissy907]

So another probably silly question...
I use a 19 gallon rubbermaid bin to sanitize all my gear (with starsan). If I use it and then put the lid on it, how long is the sanitizer good for?

~Alli

 

[buMbLeB]

So another probably silly question...
I use a 19 gallon rubbermaid bin to sanitize all my gear (with starsan). If I use it and then put the lid on it, how long is the sanitizer good for?

~Alli

From my own experience, indefinitely, which really means "until it starts to appear cloudy, or has any particulate buildup". In practice this means a handful of uses on previously cleaned implements - probably more than five but less than ten. I don't think it "goes bad" in the sense of losing potency over time, it just gets contaminated like anything else.

HOWEVER, I will observe that starsan is highly reactive, and I have a blotch on my kitchen counter to prove it. I keep my solution in a sealed glass jar that in turn is in a bucket. I'm not sure I'd trust rubbermaid - or any plastic - not to react with it over prolonged contact.

 

[Maylar]

I keep a gallon in a sealed PET jar and it lasts a loong time. Basically, until it doesn't smell like acid any more. But it will attack softer plastics like PVC so be wary of what you store it in.

 

[Kharnynb]

In theory, until it gets too dilluted, but personally I wouldn't use it much longer than maybe 2 months, depending how "dirty" it gets.

 

[Mucbean]

What about using purified water? Is it any different than distilled?

 

[Sissy907]

Thanks BuMbleB!
So I guess I will use it for each batch I start and the first few days until it goes into the carboy and then dump it and start with fresh solution each time.
So far we are doing ok with the rubbermaid (it's an "extra duty" container) but I will keep an eye on it, I keep it on the floor and we plan to replace the kitchen entirely in the future so if it were to leave a mark of some kind, I won't mind too much. It's much too heavy for me to lift around as I have a nasty back injury from a car accident a few years back, so the floor makes it easier to push around.

 

[bernardsmith]

Two thoughts, Sissy907. I think Star-san works at a pH of 3.0 or lower so the soon as that pH rises above 3.5 it has lost its ability to effectively sanitize. If you use tap water the minerals in the water may increase the pH over time whereas if you use distilled water an appropriately diluted solution's shelf-life in an inert and impervious container is very long.
The second thought is that you can effectively sanitize using Star-san without in fact submerging carboys and equipment in the solution. A cost effective method is to buy a spray bottle and make up a solution (I think the dilution *is about 6 ml to a gallon of water or 1.5 ml per quart). All you need to do is spray the solution on and in siphons and tubing and airlocks and bungs and swish a few fluid oz of the solution inside a carboy. The idea is that you wet the surfaces and allow the surfaces to remain wet for a 30 seconds. In other words, there is really no need for a home brewer to make and store gallons of sanitizer.

* Going by memory but I think my container suggests that 1 fl oz makes 5 gallons of solution and 1 fl oz is about 30 mil.

 

[Sissy907]

Thanks Bernardsmith! I saw the spray bottle method somewhere right before I started the watermelon/peach batch so I did that and it was SO much easier!! I only mixed up a couple gallons of sanitizer and tossed in everything I could and what I couldn't fit in the little bucket I sprayed down, as well as my surfaces etc.
So the watermelon/peach batch is in the 5 gal primary since I had way too much melon for a 3 gal batch (newb problems LOL). Although I forgot the damn limes while I was out so I will have to pick them up when I go out to pick up my grand baby from pre-K summer camp. I am REALLY looking forward to trying this wine! I am only going to add 2 gal of water to the fruit and see if I can't get a tastier wine from using more fruit and less water. Also used a few extra peaches than it called for too.
Think I am gonna try to make a Skeeter Pee with this batch and then I think I am gonna try some kind of cherry-something wine (ideas?).

 

[bernardsmith]

Just a cautionary note about cherry wines. They often end up tasting a lot like cough medicine and while I am not entirely certain what the reason is I think that part of the problem is that there is too little acidity, too much alcohol and too much sweetness. The other cause may be that there are concentrations of phenols in the wine - perhaps from the tannins or the red color of the fruit - that produce a medicine-like flavor

 

[Lefou]

I keep a gallon in a sealed PET jar and it lasts a loong time. Basically, until it doesn't smell like acid any more. But it will attack softer plastics like PVC so be wary of what you store it in.

I'd like to add that StarSan is 50% phosphoric acid, and 15% detergent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dodecylbenzenesulfonate
It will degrade over time when exposed to air, so it's best in a capped container It's also handy as a minor solvent. I use StarSan to clean dissolved hop oils from my boil kettle when making ale. It's effective as a cleaner of lime carbonates or for cleaning stainless steel.

 

[Lefou]

What about using purified water? Is it any different than distilled?

Depends on your definition of purified.
Pure, distilled water doesn't have any dissolved mineral salts, acids, or other chemical compounds in it. It won't give off any odors or flavors and it's the Holy Grail of water for brewers who want a baseline to work with.
Many people buy reverse osmosis water purifiers for home use. RO water is "soft" which means it doesn't have any minerals, so it's very easy to add mineral salts or acids to get the water profile you want.
I'd also like to add not all bottled waters are equal. Some commercial spring waters are below pH 7, "soft", and well-suited for creating a desired water taste with simple salt additions.

If you'd like to learn about basic water chemistry, there are multiple threads and people on the beer forums who'd be a wealth of information.

 

[Sissy907]

Depends on your definition of purified.
Pure, distilled water doesn't have any dissolved mineral salts, acids, or other chemical compounds in it. It won't give off any odors or flavors and it's the Holy Grail of water for brewers who want a baseline to work with.
Many people buy reverse osmosis water purifiers for home use. RO water is "soft" which means it doesn't have any minerals, so it's very easy to add mineral salts or acids to get the water profile you want.
I'd also like to add not all bottled waters are equal. Some commercial spring waters are below pH 7, "soft", and well-suited for creating a desired water taste with simple salt additions.

If you'd like to learn about basic water chemistry, there are multiple threads and people on the beer forums who'd be a wealth of information.

If it is like balancing pool chemicals, no problem, anything more than that, ehhhhh. I am a watch and learn and take lots of notes kinda girl! I am great at following a recipe, but not so good at having someone tell me what to do and then trying to learn from that. Total visual learner in most respects. :/ Ahhh the fun of being a Ginger sometimes.... lol

 

[Lefou]

If you have a basic knowledge of how to pH balance a pool and add salts, you can learn the basics of water.
We have a 42,000 gallon in-ground at home and figure if I can understand how to do forty-two thousand, I can do five, then again ... I'm not drinking the pool water.
One of the best reads here on HBT is Martin Brungard from my home state of Indiana. He's one of the best water authorities around. Chemists, nuclear engineers, doctors ... all to be found here with one thing in common - the pursuit of a good brew.

 

[Mallerstang]

Just a cautionary note about cherry wines. They often end up tasting a lot like cough medicine and while I am not entirely certain what the reason is I think that part of the problem is that there is too little acidity, too much alcohol and too much sweetness. The other cause may be that there are concentrations of phenols in the wine - perhaps from the tannins or the red color of the fruit - that produce a medicine-like flavor

I recommend Jack Keller's Cherry Wine (Dry) (1), and if you've not found that site yet then I recommend it too.

It was the best wine I made last year, so good that I've just started a 6 gallon batch! And I like my fruit wines dry, not too acidic, and definitely not medicinal.

Interestingly the recipe calls for what seems like an alarming amount of acid blend, but the wine ends up lovely and mellow, and as a bonus it cleared completely faster than any of the others.

The cherries are from the Okanagan, and once a year all the grocery stores here have tons of them for about a week.

 

[Sissy907]

I recommend Jack Keller's Cherry Wine (Dry) (1), and if you've not found that site yet then I recommend it too.

It was the best wine I made last year, so good that I've just started a 6 gallon batch! And I like my fruit wines dry, not too acidic, and definitely not medicinal.

Interestingly the recipe calls for what seems like an alarming amount of acid blend, but the wine ends up lovely and mellow, and as a bonus it cleared completely faster than any of the others.

The cherries are from the Okanagan, and once a year all the grocery stores here have tons of them for about a week.

That sounds delicious! Do you think it will work on the sweeter side? I prefer sweet wines (if I could drink eiswein everyday I'd be in HEAVEN!).