Newb looking at water profiles. Warning on online calculator

[Mumathomebrew]

https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

Hi, I'm looking at water profiles. I found this site online and fed in the water profiles from my local councils website. It came up a red warning sign for the Calcium saying:

Harmful. Do not brew at these levels.

However, I've just brewed my first three beers (1 gallon each) using it, although I did happen to filter the tap water beforehand through an ordinary water drinking filter first.

I then looked up the Ward labs water testing site to see what they might test for, and copied those mean average figures from the councils site.

Sodium - 20mg/l
Calcium - 284ppm
Magnesium - 2.9mg/l
Potassium - couldn't find
Carbonate - Total organic carbon as C was 0.929mg/l
Bicarbonate - couldn't find
Chloride - 28.6mg/l
Iron - 5.6μg/l (corrected)
Sulfate - 37mg/l
Nitrate - 29.4mg/l
Electrical conductivity - 565μS/cm
PH - couldn't found but average 6.5 - 9.5 given
Hardness (total) as CaCO3 - 284mg/l
Alkalinity as CaCO3 - 221mg/l
Residual chlorine - 0.48mg/l
Fluoride as F - 0.11mg/l

Might these first three beers be already ruined or did I accidentally save them by the filtering?
(Besides the fact the demis have not been in the darkness because I hadn't realised to do so).

 

[mabrungard]

Sure the calcium is high, but I haven’t heard of wort not becoming beer when the level is that high. High Ca isn’t a good thing, but it shouldn’t be a disaster.

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Hopefully the beginners luck/ignorant use of a water filter will have removed some of it. It's an old unchanged cartridge but the water went through.

Quite what it says for the family all drinking this water on a regular basis, I do not know (yet).

 

[bracconiere]

isn't high calcium good for stouts and porters?

 

[Mumathomebrew]

It ought to be good for bones and teeth! Here's to making porters and stouts then.

I found this article as a result of what you say. It has a link for John Palmers Nomograph. Thank you

Most interesting if I've done this right. It certainly indicates the dark end of brewing.

I can't find carbonate as CO3 on this local gov chart so presumably none of the beer calculators will be accurate for additions.

 

[bracconiere]

It ought to be good for bones and teeth! Here's to making porters and stouts then.

I found this article as a result of what you say. It has a link for John Palmers Nomograph. Thank you

Most interesting if I've done this right. It certainly indicates the dark end of brewing.

View attachment 645369

I can't find carbonate as CO3 on this local gov chart so presumably none of the beer calculators will be accurate for additions.

i LOVE a good stout or porter! if your lines there are any indicator, i love brown ales too!

edit: not mention dark lagers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

isn't high calcium good for stouts and porters?

No.
High alkalinity (HCO3-) is needed to achieve proper mash pH for dark beers.

 

[bracconiere]

No.
High alkalinity (HCO3-) is needed to achieve proper mash pH for dark beers.

? so it's good for dark beers? calcium is the base metal usually associated with carbonic acid, i think...not good at school words or anything....

 

[RPh_Guy]

? so it's good for dark beers? calcium is the base metal usually associated with carbonic acid, i think...not good at school words or anything....

Nope.
C is for carbon. CARBONic acid

Ca is calcium.

 

[bracconiere]

Nope.
C is for carbon. CARBONic acid

Ca is calcium.

lol, i know that, but cabonic acid in the rain, hits the dirt, and finds the base metal Ca, hooks up and has some hard water called calcium carbonate....i forget exactly how to spell but CaCO2 or something like that....

(i'm not trying to fight, just drinking looking for the truth...i love learning) and less offten it can hook up with other base metals like sodium or pottasium....

edit: i think the little - sign means it's just an ion, looking for something to hook up with, carbonic acid H2CO3, has an extra H+ and wants a base to hook up with to form a stable salt...so it finds calcium in the dirt....

 

[RPh_Guy]

The anion in any acid can potentially form a salt with any available metal (cation). This bit of chemistry has little impact on a desired water profile for beer.
Most brewers want calcium in the 50-100ppm range, regardless of the color of the beer.

@mabrungard explains the detrimental effects of exessive calcium on his site:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

Hi, I'm looking at water profiles.

In this water I'd also be concerned with the iron level. 5.6ppm is rather high and may cause a metallic/blood taste.

Alkalinity is also a lot higher that what I personally would want for pale beers.

I'd recommend using RO-purified water instead of your tap water. Add some minerals as desired. Calcium chloride, calcium sulfate, lactic acid, and sodium bicarbonate are the basic ingredients for building a water profile.

Cheers

 

[bracconiere]

The anion in any acid can potentially form a salt with any available metal (cation).

damn, i hope this goof-off post doesn't get me flamed....lol



i'm going to have to look up anions and cations, i know the words but, not the definition....i just know H+ and OH-....

and i still think a dark beer, is like carpenters trim...

edit: and that's @RPh_Guy not me in the pic...lol and in case anyone wonders what i'm reading hammered, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion

 

[bracconiere]

i'm both sorry and happy this is in brew science...didn't realize it at first. but before my brain started hurting, i realized + and -, is subatomic not just Hydrogen donors and Hydrogen acceptors (OH-) it has something to do with protons and electrons.....learn something new every day, always wondered what made base metals basic even though they had no OH- part......

 

[Mumathomebrew]

C is for carbon. CARBONic acid

Thank you. The missing one for the brew charts. Didn't know enough science for the ....ic.

We'll look up my sisters and dads areas for water. Maybe theirs will be better. Not buying in water as it almost defeats the object of making beer at home. Might as well buy beer.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thank you.

You are welcome!

 

[Miraculix]

Thank you. The missing one for the brew charts. Didn't know enough science for the ....ic.

We'll look up my sisters and dads areas for water. Maybe theirs will be better. Not buying in water as it almost defeats the object of making beer at home. Might as well buy beer.

You buy every other ingredient, don't you? Why not water? It is also just an ingredient.

 

[cire]

Forgive me if I'm totally wrong here, but I suspect some of the figures given are incorrect.

The iron level shown is exceptionally high and would suggest that water will not make good beer, but I think it is likely the units might be ug/l (micrograms per liter) and not mg/l as shown.

The same figure is given for hardness as CaCO3 as for calcium as Ca. This cannot be. Hardness will be at least 2.5 times that of calcium when expressed in the units given. So, if we use the figures for hardness and magnesium it can be calculated that calcium content would be of the order of 109ppm.

Using 109ppm for calcium improves but does not balance the anions and cations, but it does fit a lot better with the figure given for conductivity and suggests that your calcium is not as high as you believe and there should be little concern for the beers you have produced unless the iron contents is as high as you have given above.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

@cire has nailed it. Your calcium must be on the order of 109 ppm (mg/L). And the units are far and away most likely not ppm/mg/L for your Iron.

I could be wrong, but I believe that John Palmer likely no longer places any credence in his old Nomograph approach. Does anyone know if he still believes in his old Nomograph?

 

[camonick]

We'll look up my sisters and dads areas for water. Maybe theirs will be better. Not buying in water as it almost defeats the object of making beer at home. Might as well buy beer.

I buy RO water from one of those little self-fill water stations in a neighboring town.(I'm very rural and my well water is OK, but not great for most styles). I don't know what it's like in other towns, but I can fill a gallon jug for $0.25. I use a downloaded water spreadsheet and dilute my well water with the RO and use brewing salts and lactic acid to get the levels suggested for the style of beer I'm brewing... most batches only cost $1.00-1.50 for the water doing 5 gallon batches. I think very few people are fortunate enough to have really good water for brewing.

 

[bracconiere]

Thank you. The missing one for the brew charts. Didn't know enough science for the ....ic.

We'll look up my sisters and dads areas for water. Maybe theirs will be better. Not buying in water as it almost defeats the object of making beer at home. Might as well buy beer.

this is what i use for my hard water, someone else would have to say if it's a placebo...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ecoone-Eco...035528?hash=item1a6031f188:g:itMAAOSw3utY6mzN

 

[Mumathomebrew]

You buy every other ingredient, don't you?

Hopefully not if the true forager I aspire to be. Scrounging the barley from a local farmer in exchange for doing his sons wedding beer (if mine works), found the hops locally and ok, bought the yeast, but will be recycling that for each beer hopefully. Plus no doubt will do a wild nettle top and stinky mushroom sort of ale using caught airborne yeast eventually.

I readily admit to asking for a thermometer, some fuggles, some goldings, some torrified wheat, flaked rice and a bottle capper with caps for my birthday prezzy. Brewy happiness!

Post #5 has the actual chart link at the bottom if I've got the figures wrong. I'll check them again. It's highly possible I have.

 

[Miraculix]

Hopefully not if the true forager I aspire to be. Scrounging the barley from a local farmer in exchange for doing his sons wedding beer (if mine works), found the hops locally and ok, bought the yeast, but will be recycling that for each beer hopefully. Plus no doubt will do a wild nettle top and stinky mushroom sort of ale using caught airborne yeast eventually.

I readily admit to asking for a thermometer, some fuggles, some goldings, some torrified wheat, flaked rice and a bottle capper with caps for my birthday prezzy. Brewy happiness!

Sounds awesome! But really needs a lot of dedication and try/error, especially regarding wild yeast and wild hops.

 

[Mumathomebrew]

We'll start with getting one ordinary beer right first. However I do have endless patience for that sort of tinkering.

 

[Miraculix]

We'll start with getting one ordinary beer right first. However I do have endless patience for that sort of tinkering.

Than we are much alike and good plan you got there.

 

[bracconiere]

Scrounging the barley from a local farmer

This is malted barley right? Or do you plan on malting yourself also?

 

[Mumathomebrew]

In this water I'd also be concerned with the iron level. 5.6ppm is rather high and may cause a metallic/blood taste.

I'm a twit. Iron is the μg/l measurement.

 

[Mumathomebrew]

This is malted barley right? Or do you plan on malting yourself also?

He did say it was brewing barley. I haven't seen it yet.

Going back to the water qualities. Got the bit between the teeth and compared all the family and friends water suppliers levels within scroungeable distance and ours isn't the highest.

 

[Miraculix]

He did say it was brewing barley. I haven't seen it yet.

I think this only tells you that the variety is a typical variety used to make malt, for example two row or Marris Otter. It still needs to be malted, but there is a great tutorial here in this forum, I'm sure you're going to have some fun with it.

 

[bracconiere]

He did say it was brewing barley. I haven't seen it yet.

Just thought i'd ask. not to get off topic, just remember when i was 18, and first started homebrewing. imagine my disappointment when i tried to brew a 100% Rye batch with rye berries....

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Scrounged water supplies looking unlikely to be any better than ours...
Sisters water chart says 275, ours 284, dads 320, best friend & mum 346 and best friends 378. Where we go on hols in Wales is just 19.

Think we'll be catching rainwater at this rate. We luckily get enough of it in the UK, so might as well put it to work.

edit. Found an ug/l to ppm conversion chart here

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Scrounged water supplies looking unlikely to be any better than ours...
Sisters water chart says 275, ours 284, dads 320, best friend & mum 346 and best friends 378. Where we go on hols in Wales is just 19.

Are you referring to Ca++ (calcium ions) or to Total Hardness as CaCO3 (calcium carbonate)?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Don't need a chart, just divide micrograms by 1000 to get milligrams. Ppm is mg/L.

 

[Mumathomebrew]

I'm trying sooo hard to get this. I made a chart of each of our water profiles by copying a Ward lab results list and trying to get the same information off each set of water area lists..
I think I've done it right but not positive.

I'll run it through a beer water site and see whose water needs the least additions. I presume that will tell me what beer to make with whose water. I think I need to go back to school and do some more chemistry lessons.

 

[Miraculix]

You probably wanna brew really dark beers with water like that.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Calcium - 284ppm

From what I can tell, you must be getting this value from the following...which other have pointed out is not the correct value.

• Hardness (Total) as CaCO3 284

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Yes. I hope post #33 is more accurate but not sure. It's a minefield to learn.

I'm going to make a suitable stout next and see what happens.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Just a clarification on your labels so you don't mess yourself up.

The linked report has 37 for "Sulphate as SO4"
In your table you labeled this as "Sulphate as SO4-S"

Wards lab reports "Sulphate as SO4-S", which you then have to multiply by 3 to get the real Sulphate/SO4 value.

Good luck with your Stout!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Not buying in water as it almost defeats the object of making beer at home.

FYI you could also distill water yourself or put in a RO purification system if you don't want to buy purified water or sacrifice control (quality) of the beer.

Of course it's your brewery and you decide what's worthwhile.

Cheers

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Got as far as filtering it as a beginner... but do have a small old fashioned distiller, so that is a possibility. A side by side on a simple recipe with some ideal water V our tap water will soon test if we can taste the difference. I'm not entirely sure my/our untrained beer testing palate is sophisticated enough just yet.