New to Wheat beer brewing color Question

[TheGoodDudeGiveth]

4 lbs DME Wheat
3 lbs DME Pilsen
2.25 lbs Corn Sugar
1 lbs American Smoked Cherry Malt (steeped)

1 oz Sorachi Ace
1 oz Liberty

1 oz bitter orange
1 oz Corrianger

Saf WB-06 at 65-70 degrees

60 min boil.

Shooting for 8.2% ABV

Ok fairly new to Wheat extract brewing so just wanted an opinion. Everything fermented great in primary. About 1 month in the primary. About to bottle.

BLUF: The Beer looks considerable more brown than after it was first brewed and fermented. Will this correct during bottling or have I messed something up?

 

[RM-MN]

4 lbs DME Wheat
3 lbs DME Pilsen
2.25 lbs Corn Sugar
1 lbs American Smoked Cherry Malt (steeped)

1 oz Sorachi Ace
1 oz Liberty

1 oz bitter orange
1 oz Corrianger

Saf WB-06 at 65-70 degrees

60 min boil.

Shooting for 8.2% ABV

Ok fairly new to Wheat extract brewing so just wanted an opinion. Everything fermented great in primary. About 1 month in the primary. About to bottle.

BLUF: The Beer looks considerable more brown than after it was first brewed and fermented. Will this correct during bottling or have I messed something up?

There are two items going on here, not at all related. First is making the wort. Extract will be darker than the all grain version of the same recipe. The process to make the extract will make the extract darken some. Then when you boil it, the Maillard reaction will darken it more. You can avoid part of that by adding the bulk of the extract at the end of the boil.

The second item is normal and will cure itself. During fermentation there is a lot of yeast mixed up in your beer and it will reflect light, making any beer appear lighter in color. After fermentation is done the yeast settle out and are no longer able to reflect light so you beer appears darker because now the light has to go through the volume of beer. When you pour your beer it will be into a much smaller container and the beer will absorb much less light and your beer will be much lighter looking.

 

[dmtaylor]

There are two items going on here, not at all related. First is making the wort. Extract will be darker than the all grain version of the same recipe. The process to make the extract will make the extract darken some. Then when you boil it, the Maillard reaction will darken it more. You can avoid part of that by adding the bulk of the extract at the end of the boil.

The second item is normal and will cure itself. During fermentation there is a lot of yeast mixed up in your beer and it will reflect light, making any beer appear lighter in color. After fermentation is done the yeast settle out and are no longer able to reflect light so you beer appears darker because now the light has to go through the volume of beer. When you pour your beer it will be into a much smaller container and the beer will absorb much less light and your beer will be much lighter looking.

+1, RM-MN is exactly right.

 

[tri_clamp_ninja]

Also, if you are looking at the color in a large volume (like a carboy for example) it will be considerably darker then a smaller volume in a pint glass. If you boiled all of the extract that contributes to darkening. Next time steep the smoked malt then add maybe 1lb of the Pilsen dme pre boil then add all of the remaining dme at flame out.

I want to clarify: you are looking for an 8+ % abv wheat beer but roughly 35% of your fermentables are Pilsen dme and another 15% (roughly) are corn sugar. Most wheat extracts are 50+ % white wheat (briess is around 65%) with the rest being base malt. By adding that Pilsen dme you are drastically reducing your total percentage of wheat in your "wheat ale" leading to a more plain malt profile. That corn sugar is just going to dry out your beer and give it an ethanol flavor. Between the high percentage of Pilsen dme and corn sugar mixed with that smoked malt... Your wheat is going to be totally lost. To give an example with rounded off figures: say 50% of your total fermentables in this recipe are wheat dme being somewhere around 50% actual wheat in said dme (again, rounded figures) your are looking at only about 25% of the malt side of this recipe actually being wheat.

This will be a thin, dry, boozy, spicy, smokey beer. That yeast strain being pushed upwards of 70f (and running a few degrees hotter the first day or two) will really emphasize the spice profile. And maybe it's just me, because I am not a fan of smokey beers, but that is alot of smoked malt. Especially for a wheat ale.

 

[TheGoodDudeGiveth]

There are two items going on here, not at all related. First is making the wort. Extract will be darker than the all grain version of the same recipe. The process to make the extract will make the extract darken some. Then when you boil it, the Maillard reaction will darken it more. You can avoid part of that by adding the bulk of the extract at the end of the boil.

The second item is normal and will cure itself. During fermentation there is a lot of yeast mixed up in your beer and it will reflect light, making any beer appear lighter in color. After fermentation is done the yeast settle out and are no longer able to reflect light so you beer appears darker because now the light has to go through the volume of beer. When you pour your beer it will be into a much smaller container and the beer will absorb much less light and your beer will be much lighter looking.

Makes a lot of sense. Just moved it from the primary and it already looked better in the transfer siphon. Looked so much like a brown ale in the fermentor I thought I had really screwed it up. Thank you for the help!

 

[TheGoodDudeGiveth]

Also, if you are looking at the color in a large volume (like a carboy for example) it will be considerably darker then a smaller volume in a pint glass. If you boiled all of the extract that contributes to darkening. Next time steep the smoked malt then add maybe 1lb of the Pilsen dme pre boil then add all of the remaining dme at flame out.

I want to clarify: you are looking for an 8+ % abv wheat beer but roughly 35% of your fermentables are Pilsen dme and another 15% (roughly) are corn sugar. Most wheat extracts are 50+ % white wheat (briess is around 65%) with the rest being base malt. By adding that Pilsen dme you are drastically reducing your total percentage of wheat in your "wheat ale" leading to a more plain malt profile. That corn sugar is just going to dry out your beer and give it an ethanol flavor. Between the high percentage of Pilsen dme and corn sugar mixed with that smoked malt... Your wheat is going to be totally lost. To give an example with rounded off figures: say 50% of your total fermentables in this recipe are wheat dme being somewhere around 50% actual wheat in said dme (again, rounded figures) your are looking at only about 25% of the malt side of this recipe actually being wheat.

This will be a thin, dry, boozy, spicy, smokey beer. That yeast strain being pushed upwards of 70f (and running a few degrees hotter the first day or two) will really emphasize the spice profile. And maybe it's just me, because I am not a fan of smokey beers, but that is alot of smoked malt. Especially for a wheat ale.

So for next time I need to bump up that wheat portion significantly. What about if I just cut the Pilsen out entirely and went straight Wheat?

 

[tri_clamp_ninja]

So for next time I need to bump up that wheat portion significantly. What about if I just cut the Pilsen out entirely and went straight Wheat?

To really be a wheat ale I would suggest doing just that. If you use Briess bavarian wheat DME (for example) it's already 65% white wheat malt and the rest is 2 row (maybe 1% carapils) so if you use 100% briess bavarian wheat dme then your "Grain bill" is 65% wheat which would constitute a proper wheat ale. I don't remember exactly off hand but I believe, per bjcp, it would have to be at least 40% percent wheat to be labeled as a wheat.

 

[TheGoodDudeGiveth]

To really be a wheat ale I would suggest doing just that. If you use Briess bavarian wheat DME (for example) it's already 65% white wheat malt and the rest is 2 row (maybe 1% carapils) so if you use 100% briess bavarian wheat dme then your "Grain bill" is 65% wheat which would constitute a proper wheat ale. I don't remember exactly off hand but I believe, per bjcp, it would have to be at least 40% percent wheat to be labeled as a wheat.

Great advice, thank you. I’ll do that this next week when I brew that second batch

 

[tri_clamp_ninja]

If this helps, one of my favorite recipes i've ever brewed (and the one that even non-beer drinkers always love) is something like this:

-100% Briess bavarian wheat DME
-Add 10% of the dme pre boil
-Cascade @ 60mins
-floc + nutrient @ 10 mins
-Cascade @ flame out, then->
-Remaining 90% of dme at flame out
-pitch us-04 english ale yeast
-10 days @ 66f, 3 days @ 31f
-package and carb per your usual SOP (keg/bottle, force/natural carb)

Shoot for OG of 1.040 and FG of 1.010 (around 4% final abv) and keep your IBU between 20-24. If you want to get crazy add about 1oz of lemongrass (Bagged! you'll thank me later) with your flame out cascade addition. Us-05 american ale or notty also work well for a yeast on this beer however they both empasize the hop side, instead of the malt side like 04 english, so you may want to keep your IBU around 20 for balance.

I've worked for several breweries, a homebrew store, a craft beer distributor, and have been homebrewing for a few years and this recipe always gets a great response. If I add the lemon grass at flame out then add a touch lemon juice during packaging i'll have a beer that my wife drinks faster then I can keep up with haha.

 

[TheGoodDudeGiveth]

If this helps, one of my favorite recipes i've ever brewed (and the one that even non-beer drinkers always love) is something like this:

-100% Briess bavarian wheat DME
-Add 10% of the dme pre boil
-Cascade @ 60mins
-floc + nutrient @ 10 mins
-Cascade @ flame out, then->
-Remaining 90% of dme at flame out
-pitch us-04 english ale yeast
-10 days @ 66f, 3 days @ 31f
-package and carb per your usual SOP (keg/bottle, force/natural carb)

Shoot for OG of 1.040 and FG of 1.010 (around 4% final abv) and keep your IBU between 20-24. If you want to get crazy add about 1oz of lemongrass (Bagged! you'll thank me later) with your flame out cascade addition. Us-05 american ale or notty also work well for a yeast on this beer however they both empasize the hop side, instead of the malt side like 04 english, so you may want to keep your IBU around 20 for balance.

I've worked for several breweries, a homebrew store, a craft beer distributor, and have been homebrewing for a few years and this recipe always gets a great response. If I add the lemon grass at flame out then add a touch lemon juice during packaging i'll have a beer that my wife drinks faster then I can keep up with haha.

That sounds like a winner. Never thought about putting lemon grass in there but sounds tasty. I think the higher IBU in this one would be nice. This last brew I did was way too light on the ibu.

 

[TheGoodDudeGiveth]

Also, if you are looking at the color in a large volume (like a carboy for example) it will be considerably darker then a smaller volume in a pint glass. If you boiled all of the extract that contributes to darkening. Next time steep the smoked malt then add maybe 1lb of the Pilsen dme pre boil then add all of the remaining dme at flame out.

I want to clarify: you are looking for an 8+ % abv wheat beer but roughly 35% of your fermentables are Pilsen dme and another 15% (roughly) are corn sugar. Most wheat extracts are 50+ % white wheat (briess is around 65%) with the rest being base malt. By adding that Pilsen dme you are drastically reducing your total percentage of wheat in your "wheat ale" leading to a more plain malt profile. That corn sugar is just going to dry out your beer and give it an ethanol flavor. Between the high percentage of Pilsen dme and corn sugar mixed with that smoked malt... Your wheat is going to be totally lost. To give an example with rounded off figures: say 50% of your total fermentables in this recipe are wheat dme being somewhere around 50% actual wheat in said dme (again, rounded figures) your are looking at only about 25% of the malt side of this recipe actually being wheat.

This will be a thin, dry, boozy, spicy, smokey beer. That yeast strain being pushed upwards of 70f (and running a few degrees hotter the first day or two) will really emphasize the spice profile. And maybe it's just me, because I am not a fan of smokey beers, but that is alot of smoked malt. Especially for a wheat ale.

Wow...tried this beer today after bottling, terrible. Just like you said it would be. Way too dry and way too much alcohol. Couldn’t even taste the wheat.

 

[tri_clamp_ninja]

Wow...tried this beer today after bottling, terrible. Just like you said it would be. Way too dry and way too much alcohol. Couldn’t even taste the wheat.

Mind if I post a tweaked version of that recipe for you? Can keep it similar to what it sounds like you are going for but more palatable.

 

[tri_clamp_ninja]

4 lbs DME Wheat
3 lbs DME Pilsen
2.25 lbs Corn Sugar
1 lbs American Smoked Cherry Malt (steeped)

1 oz Sorachi Ace
1 oz Liberty

1 oz bitter orange
1 oz Corrianger

Saf WB-06 at 65-70 degrees

60 min boil.

Shooting for 8.2% ABV
QUOTE]

Try this:

9-10lb wheat dme, if you want a slightly dry beer but not "boozy" tasting you can sub maybe 1lb for corn sugar but I usually advise against it.
1/4 lb smoked cherry malt, a little goes a long way with smoked malts especially in a light malt base such as wheat.
1/2oz each of the bitter orange and the coriander, cutting these down will compliment the smoked malt instead of clash.
1oz of liberty, keep that the same.
3/4 oz of sorachi ace, that hop can be a one trick pony so cutting it down a bit will help with balance.
You can keep the same yeast if you want but I highly suggest trying something a bit more neutral like us-05 or us-04. US-04 is actually one of my favorite yeasts and I even use it in my commercial brewery. Fermentation temp is fine.
One month is unnecessary, two weeks in your fv is fine.

I am by no means saying this is "better" then your prior recipe or that you will "love" my version, I simply took your recipe and made minor changes to correct some of the things you didn't like about it which were also things I noticed from seeing the recipe before you even tasted it.

If you want to try something else, take the basic wheat beer recipe I posted earlier in this thread and double the dme to get your abv to 9%+ and add a few more heavy hop additions. Boom, instant imperial white IPA.

 

[tri_clamp_ninja]

Not sure why but my message got added to the quote. Incase you didn't see it:

Try this:

9-10lb wheat dme, if you want a slightly dry beer but not "boozy" tasting you can sub maybe 1lb for corn sugar but I usually advise against it.
1/4 lb smoked cherry malt, a little goes a long way with smoked malts especially in a light malt base such as wheat.
1/2oz each of the bitter orange and the coriander, cutting these down will compliment the smoked malt instead of clash.
1oz of liberty, keep that the same.
3/4 oz of sorachi ace, that hop can be a one trick pony so cutting it down a bit will help with balance.
You can keep the same yeast if you want but I highly suggest trying something a bit more neutral like us-05 or us-04. US-04 is actually one of my favorite yeasts and I even use it in my commercial brewery. Fermentation temp is fine.
One month is unnecessary, two weeks in your fv is fine.

I am by no means saying this is "better" then your prior recipe or that you will "love" my version, I simply took your recipe and made minor changes to correct some of the things you didn't like about it which were also things I noticed from seeing the recipe before you even tasted it.

If you want to try something else, take the basic wheat beer recipe I posted earlier in this thread and double the dme to get your abv to 9%+ and add a few more heavy hop additions. Boom, instant imperial white IPA.

 

[TheGoodDudeGiveth]

Hey thank you, I’ll definitely give that a try here.