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gjabball
Well-Known Member
I won't. Thank you everyone for your help!
New to water chemistry and need help!!!!
- Thread starter gjabball
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Be careful! If you add all the salts to the mash that were intended to produce a certain ionic content in the final wort, then its possible to depress the mash pH too far due to the excess Ca or Mg in the mash water.
Add the correct amount of calcium and/or magnesium containing minerals to the mash to produce a desirable mash pH. If the goal is to maintain the ionic content of the final wort when you sparge with straight RO water, then I recommend that the additional salts be added to either the kettle or the sparge water.
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OP
gjabball
Well-Known Member
Haha. Ok
Oh, I know that's not true.............Martin knows more about brewing water chemistry than I will ever know and I'd always take his advice over mine!
But I still stand by my advice, with the disclaimer "follow the primer", which is 5 grams of caCl2 in 5 gallons. That's safe, and you don't have to worry about knocking down your pH too much.
If you're using a ton of salts, more than would give you an optimum pH, than you're probably using too many for a first attempt. That's why I said what I did. The chances are that you'll have a slightly too-high pH, or at least on the verge of too-high and not too low at all. Using RO water is a great start, and for the first few times (or even later on), "less is more" really applies.
Im not trying to be disparaging of Martin. I was trying to say is that for most recipes its not a problem. He is apparently brewing some very dark ales.
Im sticking with the eat the plating off thing though. Im into pales, mostly. I cant imagine what sort of recipe doesnt use base malt.
Im sticking with the eat the plating off thing though. Im into pales, mostly. I cant imagine what sort of recipe doesnt use base malt.
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My apologies to Wynne for not explaining this concept better since he apparently didn't understand what I was speaking about and others may not have either.
The issue with adding all your minerals (calculated for the total batch volume) to the mash has little to do with the color of the beer or acidity of the grist. It has much more to do with the Residual Alkalinity condition you are developing with the calcium and magnesium additions. Its interesting that Wynne mentions pales, since that is probably the style that would be most affected by this issue since many brewers use a substantial gypsum addition in the brewing water to provide the beer with a high sulfate content. Since extra calcium will be added to the mash via that gypsum addition, that will have the effect of depressing the RA of the mash water. That reduced RA has the effect of depressing the mash pH. Since we are talking about using RO water as the starting point for the brewing water in this thread, the alkalinity of that water is near zero already. Adding a large dose of calcium to that low alkalinity water can really push the mash pH down. If the grist also includes a quantity of more acidic grains beyond the base malt, then it is entirely possible to push the mash pH below 5.2 (@ room temp).
I fully agree with Wynne that it is better to err on the low side of the pH range when brewing than to be on the high side. The beer will be more palatable in most cases. But every brewer should be aware that low pH also has negative effects in beer. Unfortunately, I've experienced this result first hand. Reduced hop expression, increased wort fermentability, and a notably tart flavor are examples of those negative effects. So, a brewer should pay attention and get their mash and wort pH in the right range instead of just assuming that everything will just work out. It is still best to mash in the 'right' pH range.
The issue with adding all your minerals (calculated for the total batch volume) to the mash has little to do with the color of the beer or acidity of the grist. It has much more to do with the Residual Alkalinity condition you are developing with the calcium and magnesium additions. Its interesting that Wynne mentions pales, since that is probably the style that would be most affected by this issue since many brewers use a substantial gypsum addition in the brewing water to provide the beer with a high sulfate content. Since extra calcium will be added to the mash via that gypsum addition, that will have the effect of depressing the RA of the mash water. That reduced RA has the effect of depressing the mash pH. Since we are talking about using RO water as the starting point for the brewing water in this thread, the alkalinity of that water is near zero already. Adding a large dose of calcium to that low alkalinity water can really push the mash pH down. If the grist also includes a quantity of more acidic grains beyond the base malt, then it is entirely possible to push the mash pH below 5.2 (@ room temp).
I fully agree with Wynne that it is better to err on the low side of the pH range when brewing than to be on the high side. The beer will be more palatable in most cases. But every brewer should be aware that low pH also has negative effects in beer. Unfortunately, I've experienced this result first hand. Reduced hop expression, increased wort fermentability, and a notably tart flavor are examples of those negative effects. So, a brewer should pay attention and get their mash and wort pH in the right range instead of just assuming that everything will just work out. It is still best to mash in the 'right' pH range.
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gjabball
Well-Known Member
So i am brewing a pumpkin ale:
9 lbs of Belgium Pale
1/2 lb Aromatic
1/2 lb Crystal 40
1/2 lb Crystal 120
1/4 lb Special Roast
I added everything into the EZ spreadsheet and am going to use RO water. I was going to add 5 grams of Calcium Chloride and 2% acid malt. After I put it into the spreadsheet I see that I have no sulfate, sodium, magnesium. So should I add gypsum?
I know everyone on this thread said less is more. Most of my reading states that I need some sulfate in my water. What do you guys think?
Lastly, if I am going to be using Distilled or RO water for all my brewing, would you buy an RO filter or just buy distilled at a grocery store?
I have learned so much from this thread. Thanks for all your guy's help.
9 lbs of Belgium Pale
1/2 lb Aromatic
1/2 lb Crystal 40
1/2 lb Crystal 120
1/4 lb Special Roast
I added everything into the EZ spreadsheet and am going to use RO water. I was going to add 5 grams of Calcium Chloride and 2% acid malt. After I put it into the spreadsheet I see that I have no sulfate, sodium, magnesium. So should I add gypsum?
I know everyone on this thread said less is more. Most of my reading states that I need some sulfate in my water. What do you guys think?
Lastly, if I am going to be using Distilled or RO water for all my brewing, would you buy an RO filter or just buy distilled at a grocery store?
I have learned so much from this thread. Thanks for all your guy's help.
I can't imagine reduced hop expression as ever being anything but a negative consequence but I do think that tartness and increased fermentability could be positives in some cases i.e. where one wants a dry beer, quenching beer. So does this not really say that for some beers a lower than what we think of as normal limit to the mash pH range applies? I've always paused when I type 5.4 - 5.6. Isn't it really like any other parameter? IOW isn't there an 'ideal' pH for each style?
It should be obvious from this statement that I have never experienced the effects of low mash pH that I am aware of. IOW I haven't undershot intended pH....yet.
Martin thanks for that additional explanation. It hadnt occurred to me that someone would add a ton of gypsum. Personally I dont care for it. I did a batch with two tsp of calcium chloride and found that to be a little too much.
To the OPs question, I would start without the calcium sulfate. You can add it back later. Try a speck or two in a beer and see if you like it. I think I got that idea from AJ.
Good luck and have fun!
To the OPs question, I would start without the calcium sulfate. You can add it back later. Try a speck or two in a beer and see if you like it. I think I got that idea from AJ.
Good luck and have fun!
Whether you want sulfate or not is entirely up to you. I always recommend starting out low on sulfate and working up because a lot of brewers find that they like beer better with no or low sulfate. I'd start with just the chloride. Then when the beer is ready to drink taste some and then add a little gypsum in the glass. If you find the gypsum improves your enjoyment of the beer then brew it with some gypsum next time. Do the same thing with that beer until you find the gypsum amount that gives you the most enjoyable beer.
That depends on how much brewing you are going to do, how far it is to the grocery store and how much they charge. Obviously if you intend to do this a lot the RO unit will be more convenient.
Yes, tartness and increased fermentability can be positives, excepting when you don't want that in a particular beer. Before I had a tool to effectively evaluate and plan my alkalinity adjustments, I did undershoot pH in a few beers. They were refreshing and drinkable, but they didn't have the character that I wanted in the beer. Another characteristic of low mash pH is reduction in body.
I do think there is sort of an ideal range of pH for each style. I try to mostly center on 5.4 for my beers. But I think there are styles that definitely benefit from a deviation of a tenth or two high or low from that center. Weizen and Wit come to mind for beers that benefit on the low side. Maybe stout and porter on the high side. This is quite subjective, so I don't know that I would try to assign an ideal range for styles.
