New to Lagering - Noob Question

[exe]

I apologize in advance for the noobish question but I couldn't seem to find the answer I needed. I brewing my first lager some time this week and I want to get the starter going tonight. Do I need to keep the starter at a certain temp (being as it is lager yeast)? Or, can I let the starter go at ale temps since the small amount of resulting beer will be mostly decanted?

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[ghpeel]

Lager starters should be held at normal temps, meaning anywhere from mid-60's to 80F is fine. You are trying to grow yeast, not make tasty beer, and you are correct that you'll decant off the bulk of the "steam beer" liquid anyway.

HOWEVER, there is a significant difference in between lager and ale starters in that your lager starter needs to be 2-3 times the size (yeast count, not necessarily volume) of your ale starter. So the ol' mantra of 1qt water + 1/4lb LDME for an ale starter is woefully weak for a lager. How big is your starter?

 

[osagedr]

If I have time I ferment my lager starters at the same temperature as the main batch, then chill and decant. However, this can take a lot longer and I honestly think it is fine to ferment your starter at room temperatures.

Use the pitching rate calculator at www.mrmalty.com to determine the correct starter size. People are sometimes surprised to learn they need a gallon or more of starter. This is one of the reasons I tend to prefer dry yeast for lagers: two packages rehydrated is enough dry yeast for most lagers.

Good luck!

 

[exe]

For my ale starters, I had been using 1 qt of water to 1 full cup LDME (not sure what that weights in at). Should I be doubling that for lagers?

 

[bottlebomber]

Lager starters definitely need more time than ale starters, just like lagers themselves. I've had later yeasts lag for almost 2 days before the gravity goes down in my starter wort. Then you need 2-3x the volume, which takes time for the yeast to work through. When you add in the cold crashing at the end I ideally make a lager starter a week before brew day.

 

[exe]

Lager starters definitely need more time than ale starters, just like lagers themselves. I've had later yeasts lag for almost 2 days before the gravity goes down in my starter wort. Then you need 2-3x the volume, which takes time for the yeast to work through. When you add in the cold crashing at the end I ideally make a lager starter a week before brew day.

I used mr malty pitching calculator to get the proper starter size. You mentioned cold crashing - do I need to do this for my starter?

 

[bottlebomber]

I used mr malty pitching calculator to get the proper starter size. You mentioned cold crashing - do I need to do this for my starter?

I recommend it. With a 2-3 liter starter you really don't want that spent wort in your beer. I just crash it at least overnight and pour the majority of the wort down the sink.

 

[ghpeel]

This is one of the reasons I tend to prefer dry yeast for lagers: two packages rehydrated is enough dry yeast for most lagers.

Absolutely. 2 packets of Saflager 34/70 makes a delicious lager, and it's what I'm using on ALL my lagers now.

The only time I've used liquid yeast on a lager, it was with an actively fermenting slurry (about 1.5 cups of pure creamy yeast) from a professional brewery collected my a friend of mine working there. It was Saflager S-189, and I pitched it at 53F and it had a full 1" krausen when I checked it 8 hours later. I have no idea what the cell count of that slurry was, but I know that I am unlikely to be able to reproduce that at home, so I'm sticking with the double dose of 34/70. No need for a starter!

 

[DSmith]

First lager here too, 3L yeast starter on a stirplate for a 3.5 gallon batch (1.070 OG) started this weekend. I intend to pitch this on Friday after chilling and decanting. I chose to do the starter in my 58F basement and it's holding about 62F during active fermentation.

 

[exe]

First lager here too, 3L yeast starter on a stirplate for a 3.5 gallon batch (1.070 OG) started this weekend. I intend to pitch this on Friday after chilling and decanting. I chose to do the starter in my 58F basement and it's holding about 62F during active fermentation.

Ut-oh, this has me a bit worried about the starter I made last night. Mr Malty told me that with a stir plate, my lager starter would need to be 1.5 quarts for 5.5 gallons @ 1.05 OG ... have I way undershot ?

 

[Yooper]

Ut-oh, this has me a bit worried about the starter I made last night. Mr Malty told me that with a stir plate, my lager starter would need to be 1.5 quarts for 5.5 gallons @ 1.05 OG ... have I way undershot ?

No, if that is what the calculator said then it'll be fine. But I wonder if something in the calculator is wonky- I've never seen mrmalty give a lager starter that small in all the years I've been using it. I think it's more likely that your starter is 1.5 GALLONS.

 

[osagedr]

No, if that is what the calculator said then it'll be fine. But I wonder if something in the calculator is wonky- I've never seen mrmalty give a lager starter that small in all the years I've been using it. I think it's more likely that your starter is 1.5 GALLONS.

Or that Mr. Malty said to use more than one package of liquid yeast. There's just no way it was a 1.5 litre starter for 5.5 gallons of lager with a single package of yeast.

 

[osagedr]

Absolutely. 2 packets of Saflager 34/70 makes a delicious lager, and it's what I'm using on ALL my lagers now.

The only time I've used liquid yeast on a lager, it was with an actively fermenting slurry (about 1.5 cups of pure creamy yeast) from a professional brewery collected my a friend of mine working there. It was Saflager S-189, and I pitched it at 53F and it had a full 1" krausen when I checked it 8 hours later. I have no idea what the cell count of that slurry was, but I know that I am unlikely to be able to reproduce that at home, so I'm sticking with the double dose of 34/70. No need for a starter!

How did your beer with S-189 turn out? I've recently made three batches using it but don't have any of them finished yet.

If I had to pick one dry lager yeast to use, it would be W-34/70. But we don't have to pick one dry lager yeast to use! I've been very impressed with S-23 both times I've used it (both were Bohemian lagers) and of course there is S-189, although it is harder to find.

I think I'll broaden my horizons a bit this year and get some more experience with Wyeast's liquid offerings. I've used 2308 and 2633 but should branch out and try some new strains.

 

[exe]

Or that Mr. Malty said to use more than one package of liquid yeast. There's just no way it was a 1.5 litre starter for 5.5 gallons of lager with a single package of yeast.

Clearly I am showing my inability to use the tool correctly. Yes, it shows 2 packages of liquid starter. Should I get another vial at LHBS and add to the starter this evening?

 

[Yooper]

Clearly I am showing my inability to use the tool correctly. Yes, it shows 2 packages of liquid starter. Should I get another vial at LHBS and add to the starter this evening?

Or else step up the starter with another 2 quarts of starter this evening.

 

[DSmith]

Here's a great tool for single and multi-step starters.

http://www.yeastcalc.com/

Looks like finishing out the 1.5L starter, decanting & adding 1.5L of new wort (stirred) gets you a comfortable amount of yeast. Many might have suggested a stepped starter for this anyway. A 1L followed by a 2L would have also been a nice starter plan.

 

[exe]

Wow - I have a lot to learn about lager yeast. I had thought it was the same as ales, just different temperatures.

 

[wildwest450]

I ALWAYS try to allow a week for a lager starter, a lot of strains will not drop out overnight, they're designed for cold temps after all(plus it's normally a huge starter). 2-3 nights is optimal imo. If you're serious about making a good lager it's more time consuming and a bit more complicated than ales, but totally worth it.

 

[osagedr]

Wow - I have a lot to learn about lager yeast. I had thought it was the same as ales, just different temperatures.

The big difference is the amount of yeast you need to pitch. I sort of use 1.5 million cells per ml per degree Plato as a rule of thumb, but I tend to ferment at the low end of the temperature range.

As others have suggested, step your starter up, let it ferment out, then chill your starter. Once all the yeast has settled out, pour off the oxidized beer and pitch the remaining slurry into your chilled wort. Try to have the slurry temperature close to the wort temperature when you pitch.

 

[ghpeel]

How did your beer with S-189 turn out? I've recently made three batches using it but don't have any of them finished yet.

The 2 beers I did turned out good. The first was an American Pilsner with a recipe from this board. Here's a link. This beer came out very, very clean and crisp. Very drinkable. Not a ton of flavor, but that was kind of the point.

The 2nd one was an American-style Amber Lager, recipe found here. It was a Pilsner with a little Melanoiden and Honey Malt, and a touch of Carafa. Another homebrewer I know raved about this beer and is trying to get into lagers because of it (I think he's going to do a Kolsch version soon).

I describe S-189 as the "US-05 of Lager Yeasts". Its not going to accent the malt like a good German lager strain, nor will it make the best Bohemian Pils like that strain would. But S-189 will make a damn fine, crisp, clean lager. I'd use it to make American Lagers, or Lagers flavored with other strong malt/hops. Just like how we reach for US-05 when we are making ales where the yeast character needs to be non-existent.

 

[ghpeel]

I've been very impressed with S-23 both times I've used it (both were Bohemian lagers)

I haven't used it yet, but honestly I heard a ton of folks saying it was too "fruity". Perhaps they were using swamp cooler techniques or something?

 

[osagedr]

The 2 beers I did turned out good. The first was an American Pilsner with a recipe from this board. Here's a link. This beer came out very, very clean and crisp. Very drinkable. Not a ton of flavor, but that was kind of the point.

The 2nd one was an American-style Amber Lager, recipe found here. It was a Pilsner with a little Melanoiden and Honey Malt, and a touch of Carafa. Another homebrewer I know raved about this beer and is trying to get into lagers because of it (I think he's going to do a Kolsch version soon).

I describe S-189 as the "US-05 of Lager Yeasts". Its not going to accent the malt like a good German lager strain, nor will it make the best Bohemian Pils like that strain would. But S-189 will make a damn fine, crisp, clean lager. I'd use it to make American Lagers, or Lagers flavored with other strong malt/hops. Just like how we reach for US-05 when we are making ales where the yeast character needs to be non-existent.

That is very interesting--everything I've read about S-189 implies it should be used for very malty beers. I've got it in a Dort and two American Lagers so I'll be very interested to see how crisp they are. I had a tiny taste of one of the American Lagers the other day as I stirred in gelatin and it was very crisp.

I haven't used it yet, but honestly I heard a ton of folks saying it was too "fruity". Perhaps they were using swamp cooler techniques or something?

I've read that many times as well. Maybe it just works well with Saaz because I get no fruitiness at either warm or cool ferm temps. Or maybe others' palates are just more sophisticated than mine.