New To Electric. Why wouldn't this work?

[mcgimpkins]

Depending on how its wired though It will cause the gfci to pop ... Ive learned this from experience...

I haven't had that fun-filled experience, but it is good to know it looks like they talked about it here: GFCI for a mixed 120 / 240 box

In addition this website: http://www.spadepot.com/spacyclopedia/wiring-hot-tub-spa.htm has a diagram for wiring up a 3 wire (no neutral) and 4 wire spa panels.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

Just a quick question... I have seen this 30 amp switch suggested many times and have almost bought it, but is the 30 amp rating at 240 volts or at 120 volts... ???

They are sort of independent of each other. It has to be able to break/block X amount of volts safely, and it has to be able to conduct Y amount of amps safely.

I.e., it works for 240V/30a. I'd be it works for high current as well, but don't test it.

 

[augiedoggy]

It shouldn't do with a proper 240V GFCI, as long as the 120V return is down the 240V neutral. It's only if you try and do that on the end of a 2 hot and 1 ground 240V wire, with the ground acting as the neutral that it will cause problems.

Any professional electrician that wires up a 240V circuit like that will likely be reporting for reeducation in order to regain his licence. I imagine that looks a bit like the end of A Clockwork Orange, but with pages of the NEC replacing the film...

Probably not worth concerning the OP with, IMO. He does have to trust that he's got a vaguely competent electrician.

Im not sure why I had the issue then.. I do use a separate ground wire than my neutral and the two are only connected at the main box downstairs so...

 

[dandanbeer]

I want to make a super simple electric system and then slowly upgrade. I'm not electrically inclined and was wondering why I couldn't buy the following two components to create a rudimentary electric system with some controllability (not just off or on).

I want to take two elements like this http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/heating-element-kits (one for my liquor tank and one for my brew kettle) and splice in a controller like this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018LUX1SS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 between the element and the plug. Would this not give me a controllability of the element e.g. run at 10% 50% or 100% just by turning the knob?

I'm sure this is super flawed and if it wasn't I would have seen a post about it by now but I just wanted to see whats wrong with this idea before I proceeded to more complex solutions.

Thanks

Just follow the diagram at this link
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=382286

scroll down to 30A 5500W single element PID. the wiring isn't too hard.

 

[BowAholic]

They are sort of independent of each other. It has to be able to break/block X amount of volts safely, and it has to be able to conduct Y amount of amps safely.

I.e., it works for 240V/30a. I'd be it works for high current as well, but don't test it.

thanks...i'll pick one up then. I just wasn't sure since I see things like this listed on switches "Power: 15A 250VAC / 20A 125VAC"

 

[doug293cz]

Just a quick question... I have seen this 30 amp switch suggested many times and have almost bought it, but is the 30 amp rating at 240 volts or at 120 volts... ???

Below are the specs on the Leviton 3032 series of switches from the Leviton website.



Not sure why there are two different current maximums listed, however a 5500W element draws at most 5500/240 = 23A.

Brew on

 

[wilserbrewer]

Thanks Doug,
I bet a 5500w element would pair nicely with my 24 gallon kettle for 15 gallon batches
Cheers

 

[frodus17]

Below are the specs on the Leviton 3032 series of switches from the Leviton website.

View attachment 338183

Not sure why there are two different current maximums listed, however a 5500W element draws at most 5500/240 = 23A.

Brew on

I scratched my head too, and I work for Leviton.... Consulting the datasheet, 24A max is for a 2HP max load. i.e. if you have a 2HP load, it shouldn't draw more than 24A. It's got to do with the inductance of motors and inrush and all that. Relays are rated the same way. Different current maximums based on what your load is.

I think the 30A rating means you can get away with 30A loads of resistive circuits like heating elements.

 

[BowAholic]

thanks to all...

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

Right, many inductive loads (like motors) will have a large inrush current due to the starter capacitor. Resistive loads are better behaved.

 

[Beernip]

Thank you all for your input I really appreciate all the great info. Right now I am leaning towards buying 2 still Dragon controller boxes one for my hlt and one for my brew kettle. With the instructions that come with those do you guys think a novice could throw them together?

I currently have a 240 electrical line that used to go to my electric range that was cut and taped when I upgraded to a gas stove. I am hoping to have that line extended into my garage and have an outlet put in for the 240 source by an electrician. Would the electrician also be the one to put in the spa panel and is that still necessary if I were running off of the 2 still Dragon controllers?

Lastly would I be able to plug both controllers in at the same time with just one 240 outlet/run at the same time? What type of outlet would I need to do that or would I have to have two 240 supplies?

Thanks again have another

The still dragon controllers are great but just remember that they don't come with plugs on either end. If you're connecting two L6-30 connectors that's another $50 per controller. Still much cheaper then commercial though.

Most likely you'd need two circuits but how many amps is your 240v circuit?

 

[Beernip]

I scratched my head too, and I work for Leviton.... Consulting the datasheet, 24A max is for a 2HP max load. i.e. if you have a 2HP load, it shouldn't draw more than 24A. It's got to do with the inductance of motors and inrush and all that. Relays are rated the same way. Different current maximums based on what your load is.

I think the 30A rating means you can get away with 30A loads of resistive circuits like heating elements.

My boss is an electrician and said you are only supposed to run a sustained load of 80% of the max load on a circuit. So 80% of a 30amp circuit is 24amps. A sustained load of 28amps on 30amp circuit would likely trip the breaker often. The motor startup load will spike well beyond the 24amps running load so don't want to blow the circuit.

 

[PeteNMA]

Continuous load refers to over three hours which does not apply to brewing setups typically.

And the concern is not for tripping the breaker, it is for the cable heating up. If you oversized the cabling you can run at 100% load ad infinitum and the breaker will not trip. It takes a combination of an over current condition and time to trip a breaker.

 

[dyqik]

Continuous load refers to over three hours which does not apply to brewing setups typically.

And the concern is not for tripping the breaker, it is for the cable heating up. If you oversized the cabling you can run at 100% load ad infinitum and the breaker will not trip. It takes a combination of an over current condition and time to trip a breaker.

This really needs to be put in a clearly visible sticky thread, along with the questions about unloaded SSRs "not switching", and SSVRs always showing 240V at their output.

It seems that every thread where someone mentions running a 25A element on a 30A circuit, someone has to wrongly bring up the continuous load rating factor.

 

[Shmeffrey]

In my experience, slowly upgrading over time has ended up costing more money than jumping into the electric all grain system that I have now. As I upgraded, equipment I already had became obsolete. I'm sure I could have done it differently so that I wouldn't have wound up with obsolete equipment but I would have been better off going straight to all-grain from the beginning.

 

[augiedoggy]

The still dragon controllers are great but just remember that they don't come with plugs on either end. If you're connecting two L6-30 connectors that's another $50 per controller. Still much cheaper then commercial though.

Most likely you'd need two circuits but how many amps is your 240v circuit?

No need for that. As linked earlier Its $22 to purchase the standard 30Adryer cord with plug to match the plugs most commonly found in a home. http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-4-Prong-30-Amp-Dryer Cord-WX9X20GDS/202214666... Whats the actual benefit of more expensive connectors here? is a twist locking outlet really necessary? Its not in my brew panel application. It takes a lot of effort to unplug the dryer style plug. still they can be bought for under $20 too... http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...I93-aVhxDF0SlOiplIF4SRDXBOtqU2PjvwaAqyV8P8HAQ and for the receptical http://www.atielectrical.com/2620-l...hthwxM861lzFXMYQnewlZHwOzycHF35d2saAh6M8P8HAQ
The other cord to the element depends on whether you choose the 4500w which is under 20A or the 5500w which draws 22 amps and requires a 25a or higher rated outlet... again there are options for as little as $6 for this. Ive used 25a rated aviation connectors most recently which securely screw on at the panel and are even watertight.

 

[augiedoggy]

My boss is an electrician and said you are only supposed to run a sustained load of 80% of the max load on a circuit. So 80% of a 30amp circuit is 24amps. A sustained load of 28amps on 30amp circuit would likely trip the breaker often. The motor startup load will spike well beyond the 24amps running load so don't want to blow the circuit.

as mentioned this is only if you were boiling at full power for over 3 hrs which would never come close to happening. Its amazing how many electricians misinterpret this rule. A motor startup load is very short... I dont see any issues here...I put a sustained load which I believed to be about 28a according to my built in meter on my system before (30 mins or so) with no breaker issues on my 30a breaker. 5500w elements realistically draw around 21-22 amps at 100% usually as they usually put out less than their max power rating. I believe a chugger or march pump draws like 1.2 amps. The truth is many run thier control panel, element and a pump at the same time off 30a circuits with no problems.

 

[dyqik]

In my experience, slowly upgrading over time has ended up costing more money than jumping into the electric all grain system that I have now. As I upgraded, equipment I already had became obsolete. I'm sure I could have done it differently so that I wouldn't have wound up with obsolete equipment but I would have been better off going straight to all-grain from the beginning.

One thing to avoid this is to have a good idea of what you are heading towards, even if you can't there just yet, and to buy components that will be reused in the future, and to go cheap on things that can't be reused. For something like a control panel, SSVRs, contactors, PID units, etc. are all reusable in a new panel, so you aren't losing the component costs when you reconfigure the control panel. You should probably go with a fairly cheap enclosure though. Expensive items like GFCI breakers, power connectors and cables are all unlikely to need replacement as well. And then there's the secondhand market if you really can't reuse something.

I do think it's best to get a single electric boil kettle going first, with a simple SSVR control (or maybe manual mode PID and SSR control), for heating strike water, sparge water and then boiling, and using coolers or even just a bottling bucket for transferring hot water around. It's possible to extract brew or all-grain 3 vessel brew with just one heated kettle. If you do mess up something on the boil kettle and buy a component that doesn't work out quite right, it's likely you can transfer weldless fittings, elements, etc. over to a HLT when/if you come to build one. If you decide to go bigger, then there's a pretty good chance the boil kettle will work OK as the HLT on the next size system up (e.g. a 8-9 gal kettle is OK for boiling 5 gal batches, and OK as a HLT for a 3 vessel 10 gal system).

 

[augiedoggy]

I had a small budget when I pieced my system together.... I used the cheap $38 12x12x8 home depot plastic electrical box for my enclosure. When I decided to change and add stuff I only needed to replace the front panel... But instead of buying another whole enclosure I went cheap and used a piece of hardboard I had laying around and painted it... The result which was a sub $300 kal type panel with power and speed control for 3 DC pumps and a rims. a lot of my journey is documented in my thread below in my signature.
I also upgraded all my kettles and such over time , not because I had to but more because the cosmetics bug got me and I got tired of looking at the mismatched cooler, keggle, kettle setup...(I also wanted a bigger MT and BK when I realized its just as much work to make 11 gallons as it is 6) I used weldless fittings so I saved a lot of money not only once but twice since all I had to do was use an $18 drill bit set from harbor freight to drill holes and move things over from one set to the next and move them around as I saw fit... Function still comes over form in my eyes so I need versatility as I improve things.

The only waste I really have had was an old front panel cover , my old cooler and keggle, kettle and 12v dc pumps I replaced with better 24V versions... I also have many small cheap cartridge heaters from a couple different rims setups I experimented with while trying to improve step mashing times... Much of my old stuff can be sold and reused especially if I ever turn a friend onto brewing.. I was able to give my old immersion chiller away to someone who needed it and I kept my corona mill in case I need a backup when mine eventually fails.

The "upgrades" in manual to pid electric arent for everyone...Ive seen people abandon it all for a simple BIAB setup with minimal control. It all makes the same quality beer just maybe not as consistently.

 

[AF1HomeBrew]

I also upgraded all my kettles and such over time , not because I had to but more because the cosmetics bug got me and I got tired of looking at the mismatched cooler, keggle, kettle setup...(I also wanted a bigger MT and BK when I realized its just as much work to make 11 gallons as it is 6)

The bug gets us all... I recently parted with my Blichmann kettles and purchased the new Spike Brewing kettles with custom TC ports... my setup looks like a mini-brewery with the TC and SS tubing from Still Dragon... and the brains of the BCS controller... The only thing missing is Laverne and Shirley..