New To Electric. Why wouldn't this work?

[AF1HomeBrew]

It seems that every time someone comes into the electric section with this simple viable plan, we all try to convince them they need control from the star ship enterprise instead... I can finally respect both arguments I guess...

Sorry didn't mean to get in your way. We should all chip in and get you a membership.

 

[augiedoggy]

Sorry didn't mean to get in your way. We should all chip in and get you a membership.

I wasnt referring specifically to you, Sorry if it came out that way , it just seems that a lot of threads start out with a simple plan and end up with so many complicated opinions and options that the OP gets confused and discouraged... I am just as guilty at contributing to this time and time again..

PS My online people skills suck. In case you havent figure that out already..

 

[augiedoggy]

I never knew of a "typical" recommended wattage for elements?



Several 3500w elements available here...I don't see any time and "extra money" involved....

https://www.plumbingsupply.com/elements.html

3800w HD
http://www.homedepot.com/p/3800-Wat...-Density-Water-Heater-Element-15293/204219992

3800w foldback
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Water-Heate...489133?hash=item210918022d:g:7z8AAOSwuYVWpWue

4000w foldback
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electrical-...hash=item3a84d2a449:m:mg_JeIp0A0hC0vXm3tsAWNw

I realize this is not the "best" way, but for someone lacking the ability to wire a more complex solution I feel it is a viable alternative. Please remember not everyone here has the same skillset, and while wiring and programming a PID or PWM for some is very simple, others have no desire to attempt doing it.

Your right I guess about the element... I dont recall ever seeing someone take that path though..and your limiting yourself on batchsizes as you brought up.
As far as controlling the power with a mechanical switch though I still respectfully disagree that its a good option.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

I'll chime in with my 2 cents (why not). I think the stildragon kit is the easiest route to go to meet what the OP wants. For safety, I'd also add a switch, just to be able to mechanically kill the power completely. Lowes Depot sells a switch that will work:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...ble-Pole-Switch-White-R62-03032-2WS/100356941

A single controller is sufficient, you can just unplug one element and plug the other in.

Its cheap, and does exactly what you want. You can use the excess money to:

1. Get GFCI protection. Spa panel is the cheapest route, AFAIK. There's a lot of threads that show how to wire it up. You can always ask if you have questions too. Do not run an electric brewery without GFCI protection.

2. Make sure the element is safely attached. See the BrewHardware site for a nice inexpensive option. I have the TC version and they are great, I'd guess you want the weldless nut/o-ring option. Its an easy way to ensure a good water tight, electrically bonded connection.

The only problem is with the stildragon option, it is sort of hard to upgrade from this route without starting over with the control panel. You haven't put much money into the control panel, though, so that's probably alright.

I'm happy to help if you have any questions about how to wire anything up.

edit: I'd stay away from random amazon/ebay stuff unless it has been vetted by users. There's too many stories of counterfit breakers, SSR's, etc out there. Some dude in texas got arrested a while back for counterfitting breakers that were shown to be dangerous. Get equipment from reputable dealers, or ask on here if you aren't sure.

 

[brownbox]

Thank you all for your input I really appreciate all the great info. Right now I am leaning towards buying 2 still Dragon controller boxes one for my hlt and one for my brew kettle. With the instructions that come with those do you guys think a novice could throw them together?

I currently have a 240 electrical line that used to go to my electric range that was cut and taped when I upgraded to a gas stove. I am hoping to have that line extended into my garage and have an outlet put in for the 240 source by an electrician. Would the electrician also be the one to put in the spa panel and is that still necessary if I were running off of the 2 still Dragon controllers?

Lastly would I be able to plug both controllers in at the same time with just one 240 outlet/run at the same time? What type of outlet would I need to do that or would I have to have two 240 supplies?

Thanks again have another

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

You might be looking for something like this: High Gravity Brewing Electric Kettle Controller. It is basically an on, off switch running to a manual power level, so you can control in intensity of your boil.

In addition like doug293cz said, you are going to want a GFCI either in a spa panel or inline GFCI

I've been loving my High Gravity system for nearly 2 years now, and couldn't be happier with it.

 

[augiedoggy]

Thank you all for your input I really appreciate all the great info. Right now I am leaning towards buying 2 still Dragon controller boxes one for my hlt and one for my brew kettle. With the instructions that come with those do you guys think a novice could throw them together?

I currently have a 240 electrical line that used to go to my electric range that was cut and taped when I upgraded to a gas stove. I am hoping to have that line extended into my garage and have an outlet put in for the 240 source by an electrician. Would the electrician also be the one to put in the spa panel and is that still necessary if I were running off of the 2 still Dragon controllers?

Lastly would I be able to plug both controllers in at the same time with just one 240 outlet/run at the same time? What type of outlet would I need to do that or would I have to have two 240 supplies?

Thanks again have another

Yes the stilldragon boxes are very simple to wire up. Lot of wiring options for power..
You can have an electrician either replace the 50a breaker for your stove line with a 30a one and run a new 10awg line from the box to your garage with a spa panel for gfci (50a is fine since your just using it for gfci protection and as an extra kill switch.) or run the more expensive 6awg line and keep it 50a... depends on itf you think you need to heat both kettles at the same time. Also you can just replace the breaker in your panel with a GFCI breaker and skip the spa panel but ironically this costs more to do.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Please go on....I'm curious why? Watts are watts no? I have been e-brewing a long time, way before this forum sub section was created and have never used a controller.

I realize that one would not be able to vary batch size etc.

Typical controller.... lol
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...ble-Pole-Switch-White-R62-03032-2WS/100356941

I dont see how you could control 5500W 240V element with on off, to keep mine from boiling like a cauldron my PID has to turn it on and off way too often (every second or so) to be something you could realistically do for an entire hour.

 

[dyqik]

no... I would just build 2 stilldragon kits and have the etra redundancy of having an extra controller or better yet... unplug one kettle and plug the other one in.

The contactor isn't to switch elements. It's to switch off the current before you unplug the circuit (e.g. to switch kettles), and to provide an easily accessible power switch in case of SSVR failure or other emergency. The 30A 2-pole switch linked above is another option, for about the same price - there are advantages and disadvantages to both options.

Plugging and unplugging loads with high current flowing is an easy thing to avoid for $15, so I definitely prefer to include a switch of some kind, for the reasons doug outlined upthread.

 

[augiedoggy]

The contactor isn't to switch elements. It's to switch off the current before you unplug the circuit (e.g. to switch kettles), and to provide an easily accessible power switch in case of SSVR failure or other emergency.

Plugging and unplugging loads with high current flowing is an easy thing to avoid for $15, so I definitely prefer to include one, for the reasons doug outlined upthread.

ahh understood... I keep my spa panel mounted near my control panel for this main power kill switch so that would be a good option here too.
Iive actually been using my spa panel breaker as the main power switch by turning it on and off after each brew session and so far I've had no problems with this over the years... well over 60 brew sessions and likely 30 CIP sessions... and my GFCI still works fine as I've recently discovered with a recent element issue.

Some people say using breakers as switches will shorten their life but when I was a maintenance man we used the same 15a breakers as switches for the parking lot LPS lighting turned on and off every day for the 20 years I worked there with no issues....

 

[wilserbrewer]

Thank you all for your input I really appreciate all the great info. Right now I am leaning towards buying 2 still Dragon controller boxes one for my hlt and one for my brew kettle. With the instructions that come with those do you guys think a novice could throw them together?

I fail to see why one would want or need the still dragon on an HLT?
When at temp, just shut it off?

 

[iijakii]

I dont see how you could control 5500W 240V element with on off, to keep mine from boiling like a cauldron my PID has to turn it on and off way too often (every second or so) to be something you could realistically do for an entire hour.

He's saying you can size your elements for the batch size if you want - don't have to go only 5500W. There's 2000,2500,3000,3500,4500 etc and plenty in between options available.

 

[augiedoggy]

He's saying you can size your elements for the batch size if you want - don't have to go only 5500W. There's 2000,2500,3000,3500,4500 etc and plenty in between options available.

One thing thats not been mentioned is it will likely take an hour or 2 longer to brew this way.

Its kind of like cooking on a fire meaning you really have to watch things close.

 

[augiedoggy]

I fail to see why one would want or need the still dragon on an HLT?
When at temp, just shut it off?

If your watching it like a hawk and know just when to do so then yeah... Otherwise with no control it could easily go well over your desired temp and you cant hold it at the same temp without heat control. I dont know how you do it but I get my sparge water to temp and hold it there until Im ready to use it..
It would work either way but having control does make it easier. Do you cook on a stove with a really small heat source and no heat control? Would you rather do that? I realize thats all youve done with electric brewing (at least I believe so from your past comments) but is it possible you just dont realize what your missing?

 

[wilserbrewer]

One thing thats not been mentioned is it will likely take an hour or 2 longer to brew this way.

I disagree completely....15 minutes maybe. With this reasoning I could brew beer in 20 minutes if I upgraded to a 5500w element lol

 

[wilserbrewer]

If your watching it like a hawk and know just when to do so then yeah... Otherwise with no control it could easily go well over your desired temp and you cant hold it at the same temp without heat control. I dont know how you do it but I get my sparge water to temp and hold it there until Im ready to use it..
It would work either way but having control does make it easier. Do you cook on a stove with a really small heat source and no heat control? Would you rather do that? I realize thats all youve done with electric brewing (at least I believe so from your past comments) but is it possible you mjust dont realize what your missing?

Since when are accurate HLT temps all that important? Yes, I realize exactly what I'm missing, and really could care less if I'm batch sparging with 165 or 175 degree water....hell maybe I'll just start cold sparging as that would be simpler without an HLT....I try not to obsess.

Have you ever tried it, or are you making ass umptions?

 

[augiedoggy]

I disagree completely....15 minutes maybe. With this reasoning I could brew beer in 20 minutes if I upgraded to a 5500w element lol

How so? So is 3000w with 6 gallons is only 15 minutes faster than say 5500w?
In reality it takes over 30 minutes longer for the 3000w to take 6 gallons from 65 degrees to boiling alone. if your ground water is cold you wait longer. and you boil longer to get the desired boiloff rate. This can add up to an hour easily.. More with 1500 or 2000w.
heres a calculator..
http://brewmastercontrols.com/index.php/electric-heat

 

[wilserbrewer]

How so?

I'm comparing 3800-4000w vs 4500, not a big deal IMO.

 

[augiedoggy]

Have you ever tried it, or are you making ass umptions?

No need to resort to name calling here... Really? No, I havent but I have to think the science and math doesnt lie here. Sparge temps may not be critical but strike water temps do matter.

Taking this all as some sort of attack against you for some reason? I dont get it.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm comparing 3800-4000w vs 4500, not a big deal IMO.

But you use 2 1500w elements. and I was responding to you "Then I could" comment So yeah you could easily save an hour yourself.

 

[brownbox]

Although I do want a pretty bare bones set up I do want some rudimentary control over the power level of the element so although it might be possible to size the element to my system I dont think it is the best option for me.

As suggested before I may just use one still Dragon kit and plug/unplug between the two of them. That seems to be the simplest option. I just need to figure out what I need to ask my electrician to set up. With just a 240 source would they also be able to put in a regular outlet so I could plug in a chugger pump and other accessories or would they have to run a 120 line?

 

[wilserbrewer]

No need to resort to name calling here... Really?

My apologies, lame attempt to be humerous.

But you use 2 1500w elements.

No, 2 @ 2000w, 4000w total

 

[dyqik]

Although I do want a pretty bare bones set up I do want since rudimentary control over the power level of the element so although it might be possible to size the element to my system I dint think it is the best option for me.

As suggested before I may just use one still Dragon kit and plug/unplug between the two of them. That seems to be the simplest option. I just need to figure out what I need to ask my electrician to set up. With just a 240 source would they also be able to put in a regular outlet so I could plug in a chugger pump and other accessories or would they have to run a 120 line?

That's definitely a good way to start. Then you can easily build a standalone HLT controller (PID or manual) later if you want to, without wasting investment. I kind of like the idea of separate controls for each component anyway, at least until I've understood how I brew in the space.

I think to tap off a 120V line they would probably have to install a subpanel so that the 120V line is on a 15A/20A breaker, so that's probably a fairly big investment. That may depend on the local code though. It'll probably be cheaper for to run a separate circuit to the garage for the 120V outlet, depending on your house construction, etc.

A 120V line is definitely good to have, even if it's just to run a laptop to take notes/watch TV/listen to music on while brewing! But you'll probably end up using a 120V outlet for pumps, ventilation fans, etc. anyway.

 

[augiedoggy]

My apologies, lame attempt to be humerous.



No, 2 @ 2000w, 4000w total

Fair enough.. With 4000w the time difference is very small... But the boil is pretty crazy with 6 gallons (at least you can turn off one of your elements which I'm guessing you are doing from time to time while leaving the other on. Someones with 1 240v element doesnt have the same options. plus your 4000w worth of elements is likely closer to 3500w in real output.
I recently did the math myself when debating on going to 5500w because my 4500w element is really only putting out 4026w... if I assume the 5500w element puts out say 5200w optimistically its not a huge deal in time but element power varies from element to element and that has some effect as well as many other criteria on different peoples experience.

I feel like we had this discussion before?

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Since when are accurate HLT temps all that important? Yes, I realize exactly what I'm missing, and really could care less if I'm batch sparging with 165 or 175 degree water....hell maybe I'll just start cold sparging as that would be simpler without an HLT....I try not to obsess.

Have you ever tried it, or are you making ass umptions?

Well an accurate HLT is the entire premise behind a functioning HERMS system...so there's that.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Well an accurate HLT is the entire premise behind a functioning HERMS system...so there's that.

The entire premise of this thread is the OP is looking to replace a basic manual propane rig and switch to an inexpensive very simple e-brewing system, NOT build a HERMS system...so there's that...cheers!

 

[mcgimpkins]

With just a 240 source would they also be able to put in a regular outlet so I could plug in a chugger pump and other accessories or would they have to run a 120 line?

Yeah, you and/or an electrician can wire a 120 pump connection into a 240 source. In addition, from personal experience, having an on off switch on your pump electricity a lot more convenient than plugging and unplugging the thing.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yeah, you and/or an electrician can wire a 120 pump connection into a 240 source. In addition, from personal experience, having an on off switch on your pump electricity a lot more convenient than plugging and unplugging the thing.

Depending on how its wired though It will cause the gfci to pop ... Ive learned this from experience...

 

[dyqik]

Depending on how its wired though It will cause the gfci to pop ... Ive learned this from experience...

It shouldn't do with a proper 240V GFCI, as long as the 120V return is down the 240V neutral. It's only if you try and do that on the end of a 2 hot and 1 ground 240V wire, with the ground acting as the neutral that it will cause problems.

Any professional electrician that wires up a 240V circuit like that will likely be reporting for reeducation in order to regain his licence. I imagine that looks a bit like the end of A Clockwork Orange, but with pages of the NEC replacing the film...

Probably not worth concerning the OP with, IMO. He does have to trust that he's got a vaguely competent electrician.

 

[BowAholic]

Please go on....I'm curious why? Watts are watts no? I have been e-brewing a long time, way before this forum sub section was created and have never used a controller.

I realize that one would not be able to vary batch size etc.

Typical controller.... lol
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...ble-Pole-Switch-White-R62-03032-2WS/100356941

Just a quick question... I have seen this 30 amp switch suggested many times and have almost bought it, but is the 30 amp rating at 240 volts or at 120 volts... ???