New to Brewing, Coming up with Great Stuff

[torilen]

Hi all - Matthew here. I have been brewing for about a month and a half so far, but I've read a lot and have been learning a lot in that month and a half.

First off, let me say that I only do 1 gallon batches. I just don't have room or money for bigger batches.

So far, I have made three batches of hard cider. The first two were not so great, even with back sweetening and aging. The third...I tasted it morning and evening each day to see what it was doing, and pulled it after only about 4 days, because it started to get that bad taste again.

I am not sure what is going on with my ciders. It might be fermenting too fast...the third batch I put only half a packet of yeast (redstar premier cuvee). It fermented a little more slowly, but was still fast. I think I might also have a problem with the juice I am using. I have used three different types of 100% pressed apple cider. I think I may have to try just plain apple juice, and see how that comes out.

I have also made a batch of ginger beer - lots of ginger, 1 gallon of spring water, 4 cups of white sugar, 2 zested and juiced lemons, 1/2 packet redstar premier cuvee. It fermented nice and slow for a week, and came out AMAZING. A real hard ginger bite (which I like), and a bit of a harsh buzz, but still amazing.

Tonight I started a really small batch of coffee wine - 2 cups of decaf kona coffee, 1/2 cup white sugar, 1 tablespoon honey, a small spoon of cocoa powder, 1 small squeeze from 1/2 a lemon, 1/2 packet redstar premier cuvee. It is bubbling nicely already...so we'll see how that comes out. My plan is to start tasting it Saturday afternoon, and see what it is doing.

I have big plans - I plan to try making something with molasses and honey...a sort of mead or something (small batch to start with...just an experiment). I have a 96oz jug of 100% concord grape juice waiting to brew. I also want to try hard lemonade, but I have read it is difficult because of the acid in it.

Just some last pieces of info - I would like to try real beer, but the recipes are a bit complex for me right now, and I really don't have the money for all the grains and other such ingredients. I have been using only the premier cuvee so far...I got a pack of 10 for around $9.00. I plan to try some other types when I run out of that...should be buying some soon. I like the premier cuvee, though, because it allows for high ABV. If anyone has suggestions for other yeasts that allow for high ABV, I'll take them.

Thanks, all. I have learned a lot from your forums so far. Hope to enjoy the community.

Matthew

 

[Chef-Ryan]

Welcome , I am curious what you consider the bad taste? I may be able to help you prevent or work around this flavour

 

[torilen]

Chef Ryan - the best I can think to describe the bad taste is just a really strong, very odd alcohol taste. I have read that different yeasts can produce different alcohols, which will taste different. I have also read that fermenting too fast can produce a certain type of alcohol that is not very good for taste.

I know it will be very hard to make a homebrew cider to taste like store bought products, mostly because they use special blends of apples and juices and such. I can live with the different taste due to juice, though...that's just something one has to understand and live with - unless you can find and press your own apples.

 

[lukebuz]

You may be fermenting at too high of a temp, which causes fusel alcohols. Try keeping it cool. In the garage? An empty coat closet? Basement?

Also, it'll never taste like store bought, because they cheat. Force carbing is just not same as natural secondary ferment. You can take a sickeningly sweet cider, pump bubbles into it, and viola!
Just depends what you like!

As for wines, you can make it better than store bought. My first batches, not so much...but after i learned, I can easily beat a $15-$20 bottle of wine. A fine wine? Maybe not. But way better than Barefoot, YellowTail, etc.

 

[DoctorCAD]

You say you've been brewing for a month and a half. That isn't enough time for any cider or wine. What you are tasting is alcohol, yeast and rotten ingredients, of course it tastes bad. Give it a year and report back as to how it tastes.

 

[pumpkinman2012]

I couldn't agree more, a month and a half is too soon for wine or cider, what you are tasting is a very young cider, I age my cider 6 months minimum, you mention using a yeast because it has a higher alcohol tolerance, high ABV in ciders will actually strip or over power the delicate apple flavor and aroma, depending on the ABV, you may need to age it well over 6 months to a year.

I have 18 gallons (three 6 gallon batches) of fresh pressed apple cider aging since November, I've literally touched it twice, once to rack it into the fermenters, and once to rack off the lees/sediment once fermentation was finished. I won't touch it again for a few more months when I back sweeten, filter it and bottle it.

Do you have a hydrometer?
A hydrometer is absolutely necessary.
What were your starting and final gravity readings?

You mentioned that you were going to start a coffee wine on Thursday the 18th and tasting it on Saturday?

My plan is to start tasting it Saturday afternoon, and see what it is doing.

I can appreciate your enthusiasm and eagerness to
What do you expect to taste after 2 days? The yeast will have just started to ferment really well, the must will still taste sweet since the yeast has only had a day or so (factoring in the lag phase) to start converting the sugar to alcohol.
The coffee might be more acidic than you expect.

The Red Star Premier Cuvee yeast, is a real workhorse yeast, that is known to ferment very fast, I usually use 1 gram of yeast per gallon of must, I wouldn't use more than 2 grams on a 1 gallon batch, are you hydrating the yeast or just sprinkling the yeast on the must?

In all honesty, I'd concentrate on learning the basics, ask as many questions as you can before experimenting a lot, this will save you a lot of time, money, and headaches.

 

[marckw]

Hi Matthew. Welcome to the forums!

 

[torilen]

I do not have a hydrometer - hopefully in another month or two I'll be able to get one. Also don't have much room or equipment for long term aging - again...maybe in another month or two. I should be getting a 64oz growler...maybe two or three...in a week or two, so I should be able to start actually putting stuff up for a bit. I need to get my hands on the camden tablets and potassium sorbate to stop the fermentation...that way I don't have to worry about bottles blowing up on me.

I do have a question about this...The only place I'd really have to store anything for aging is in the garage. Would this be okay, with the temperature changing between seasons and such? Is there a way to guard against temperature change...does it matter for aging?

As for the coffee wine (and other brews so far) I usually just sprinkle the yeast on. That has worked nicely so far.

I did taste the coffee wine this morning and this evening - I can actually taste a difference. It is coming along nicely. Without the hydrometer, I can't tell how much alcohol there is...it is such small batch any how (2 cups of coffee), it would be hard to test anyhow. I know it can't be much.
The taste has already mellowed just a touch...the lemon taste is mostly gone. The acid in the coffee is more pronounced, certainly.

I plan to make a larger batch, since this one has come out well. I've kept track of my ingredients and amounts and such...should be easy to make a larger batch almost exactly.

I don't know how much yeast I am using, exactly. I have gone from using a full packet to using only half a packet. Should I start weighing it? My wife has a pretty nice scale for baking...I could use that if needed. And is there a good way to save the left over yeast? I've read you can keep it in the fridge for a bit. Is this true?

 

[pumpkinman2012]

A hydrometer is one of the most important wine making tools that you can buy, without it, you are doing a lot of guess work.
I can really empathize with you regarding the limited space to store and age.

Potassium Metabisulfite (Meta) and Potassium Sorbate will not stop an active fermentation, sorbate will prevent any new fermentations, for instance, if you plan on back sweetening after the wine has fermented to dry.

Together they work as follows:
Potassium metabisulfite - prevents spoilage and further fermentation by removing oxygen, by removing the oxygen it chokes off micro-organisms and will prevent them from reproducing.
Potassium Sorbate - keeps wines from starting to ferment again after the fermentation has been completed, it does this by rendering micro-organisms unable to reproduce.

Temperature fluctuations can affect your wine, the optimal storage temp range is between 45° F and 65°, however, 55° is usually the temp. to shoot for.
Temperatures higher than 70° will age a wine too fast, if it gets much hotter, the wine can get “cooked,” resulting in flat aromas and flavors. If the wine is stored at temps below 45°, the lack of moisture could eventually dry out corks, which might allow air to seep into the bottles and damage the wine.

Make sure that your wine is covered to protect it from the sunlight, the sun’s UV rays can degrade and prematurely age wine, I put an old shirt on all of my carboys and keep my demijohns covered, although I don't believe that household lights effect the wine, I keep them covered.

You can get a dorm fridge fairly cheap on Craigslist to keep the wine cool in the summer, and you can make a small "hot box" using a sheet or two of the styrofoam type insulation from any of the home improvement stores and a small heat lamp or a seedling heat mat.

Hydrating yeast - Even though you are successfully fermenting by sprinkling the yeast on top of the must, you should try hydrating it at least once.
I usually use 1 gram per gallon of must if the brix is is 24 or lower, if it is 25 or higher, I use 1.25 - 1.50 grams per gallon.
The yeast packet should have an expiration date on it, I've kept partial packets in the fridge and used the remainder as needed.

Try to avoid opening the wine so many times, you run the risk of oxidizing the wine and/or cider, I understand how exciting it is to be creating your wine, I still get excited about it, but the most important part of making wine is patience, it's a hard step to learn, but it is necessary.

Make sure that you are keeping detailed notes, it will help you to recreate the wine and scale up when the time comes.

I hope that this helps.

 

[fuelish]

Only way I've used a partial pack of yeast (which is rare) is to keep it tightly wrapped in plastic wrap in the freezer, and boil it to use as a bit of natural nutrient when the time comes, but like I said, it's rare. My LHBS sells most of their wine yeasts for $0.99 for a 5 gram pack, so I'll either use one (the usual) or 2 if I'm going whole hog on something heavy...I'm amazed that good dried wine yeast is so inexpensive, they want a fair amount more for their dried beer yeasts....go figure

 

[torilen]

Thanks all for the useful and detailed advice. I am taking notes and keeping track of everything I am being told...as soon as I have money for various things (hydrometer, more bottles for aging, etc), I will begin making use of all of the advice.

For now...I'm trudging on with what I have learned and can make use of in the present. I am taking good notes on everything, so I can change what needs to be changed in the future and scale up when possible.

I currently have on three things:
1 - Batch two of ginger beer. I cut back a touch on the ginger and it is going to be great. It was tasting wonderful before fermentation. It has been on since Sunday afternoon. I tasted tonight and it is going wonderfully.

2 - Batch two of coffee wine. I got rid of the lemon for nutrient and used something I had read about - using bread yeast as the nutrient. From what i had read, one could boil the bread yeast to kill it and that provides nutrient. I just proofed it like I was going to make bread and scooped in a bit of the foam for the nutrient. I don't know if this would be any different from proofing the Premier Cuvee - if not, let me know and I will just proof that next time. Is that the same thing as hydrating the yeast?
... ... ... I tasted this tonight, as well, and it is going wonderfully. Not sure how long it will take to ferment completely - it is bubbling really slowly. But it should be great once it is ready. I only made 3 cups of this for now...If it turns out well, I will be making a full gallon batch next time.

3 - Batch one of molasses something - not sure if it would be called beer or wine or whatever. It is 2 cups of water, 3 oz. blackstrap molasses, 1 oz. honey, 1/2 cup white sugar. This was WONDERFUL before I started fermentation. I tasted it tonight and it is going to be great when it is done. I have big plans for this already. Stay tuned on this.

Yes - I know, you all say a couple of nights is too soon to taste things. I understand why...I am just curious on how things progress as they ferment and age and such. The coffee wine and molasses drink are still in the experiment phases, so I am just seeing what is happening. When I make real batches of them, at least in the future I'll know they will work and I won't have to mess with them until they are done.

 

[pumpkinman2012]

I look forward to hearing about the finished products.

 

[torilen]

The ginger beer turned out AMAZING! And strong, too. I don't have a hydrometer, so I don't know the exact ABV. However, I drank about 24-28 oz before taking a nap this morning while checking email. Then I went up to take a shower. By the time I had gotten out of the shower, it had hit me quite hard. Granted, mostly empty stomach...but still seems pretty strong.

The coffee wine is okay. Needs a bit of work on the recipe, I think, and could certainly use some aging. When I get more bottles and work out how to bottle with them blowing up - I'll do that.

The molasses drink - I'll be trying that tonight, but initial tastes told me it is going to be pretty good. The recipe needs some work - I actually found one on here that I will be using for gingerbread beer. I'll let you know how that comes out.

 

[buMbLeB]

So I've been lurking on this site for a few weeks on and off, but was only moved to join up today by your posts - you and I are living some weird boozy parallel existence! Seriously - I started brewing just over a month ago (so maybe a week behind you); I've made two batches of hard apple cider (here in Canada it's just "cider") and have my third underway (they both turned out fantastic though, taking between 4 days to just over a week!!); I've also made two mini batches of ginger beer that was kick-you-in-the-throat gingermageddon, and now have twin gingers on the go with less ginger (one lemon, one bitter orange which is coming up AMAZING); and I'm also running a test batch of hard tea. Finally I have a very small tester of ~16% ginger beer somewhere in week three taking forever to eat the sugar, and I ran a very tasty first shot at kitchen counter root beer from scratch (my kitchen has weird ingredients in it) that tasted great but stopped fermenting early due to being sugar syrup, which I mixed down with soda water as a bona fide "soft" drink.

I've thought about doing coffee wine, and also trying a molasses/ brown sugar "rum wine", but further research led me to believe that neither was likely to come out well. I'll be especially interested to see how your projects progress. Like you, I am a heathen and am not yet prepared to wait a year to see how things turn out. Yes, that is definitely in the cards, but later. In fact, while I didn't expect it, my ciders have all turned out very well - by which I mean better and stronger than what I can buy in the liquor store - and I can have them in my tummy starting about a week or so after pitching.

I'm sure they'd improve with racking and aging etc, but so far pretty good + bloody quick is an unbeatable combination, and I'm intent on standardizing my process so I can have a more or less continual pipeline of cheap overstrength cider. I found ubercheap preservative-free apple juice at Walmart, and with some plain sugar and champagne yeast it comes out just over 10% with a semi-sweet finish, then cold crash to the fridge without any sulphites etc and two days later it's clear and slightly bubbly! I saw you've had some troubles with your own ciders, so if you'd like my recipe or notes etc I'm very happy to share them.

Anyway, I think I'll enjoy following your experiments - we seem to share a certain brewing philosophy. And of course, to anyone else reading my screed, I look forward to making new friends and have already learned a great deal from you guys, even if I am using my powers for evil. Thanks!

PS oh yeah, I almost forgot, I picked up one concord plus one white Welchs grape juice to see if I can make a low-alcohol wine for my lovely lightweight girlfriend, so add one more to the syncronicity pile.

PPS You asked for high-ABV tolerant yeast recommendations: the only one I've used so far, with great success, is Lalvin EC-1118 champagne yeast. I'm pretty sure this workhorse is one of the most common varieties in use, so it's not just me that likes it.

 

[torilen]

buMbLeB - the rum wine (great name for that, by the way - thanks for that) came out okay, if you REALLY like molasses. I'm going to attempt it again this coming weekend, though I'm going to cut the molasses a lot, up the honey by a tablespoon, and add in some hops, as the original recipe called for. I'll let you know how that comes out.

The coffee wine was actually pretty descent. I do think it needs some time to age...once I have the space to age things, I'll do that. It's not as much like Kahlua as I would have liked. I'm going to work on the recipe...maybe a little more sugar and cocoa powder...perhaps just make a straight cocoa paste as if I were making chocolate milk. This might make it a little more chocolate and thicker. I have to be careful with it, though. I put the last bits of it in a cup for my wife, and it had too much of the cocoa powder remnants. She wasn't real fond of that.

 

[buMbLeB]

Glad you liked the name, I'm pretty sure I'm not the first to think of it. I do like molasses, but I'll wait for you to do some more tweaking and report back. I may have to go ahead and try some version of the coffee wine, I'm impressed you got it to be passable, even if your wife had to take a bullet. I'm sure you'll make it up to her.

 

[torilen]

buMbLeB - here is the thread for my rum wine/gingerbread beer
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7437727#post7437727

As for the coffee wine...I'm still mulling things over for that. I'll let you know if I come up with anything new for that.