New product from SABCO - automatic RIMS

[Elfmaze]

Very cool piece. Unfortunatly going with traditional Sabco tradition about double what i would want to pay for it

http://www.brew-magic.com/rims_wizard.html

 

[Brewmoor]

You could build one yourself for under $500.

Element $20
pump $130
SSR $20
GFCI Cord $25
PID $30
Misc Parts $100

The programmable controller they are using is spendy. That thing alone is about $500. Major overkill for this type of thing IMHO.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Wow.... $1,700.00 really???

I agree a full PLC with memory is gross overkill for this. It is spendy even for PLC control. But I suppose, based on some discussions here, it is super difficult to make something like this that is to code and safe enough to sell to the idiot public. Still, who in there right mind is going to buy that?

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Why do they have the temp sensor on the mash outlet rather than the HEX outlet? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[martinworswick]

Why do they have the temp sensor on the mash outlet rather than the HEX outlet? Doesn't make sense to me.

i had this argument with a friend who is building a rims. he's adamant that the probe goes before the element but my argument was if you can't control the temp leaving the element then your setting yourself up for a massive overshoot. he's convinced that he's right and points out that sabco do it, i can only see tears personally!

 

[samc]

The same guys who buy brand new 5 gallon corny kegs will buy this. If you have the cash and don't have the time, knowledge or inclination to build one then it's not a big deal. I enjoyed building my system, some people wouldn't.

 

[remilard]

Why do they have the temp sensor on the mash outlet rather than the HEX outlet? Doesn't make sense to me.

It works extremely well on the brew magic

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I am sure the PLC is controlling ramp rates to control overshoot. A regular PID may be able to do this but I haven't tested it. Still, after the element makes more sense.

 

[remilard]

I am sure the PLC is controlling ramp rates to control overshoot. A regular PID may be able to do this but I haven't tested it. Still, after the element makes more sense.

I think it is implementation specific.

 

[wildwest450]

I like it! If I wasn't poor i'd buy 2 of em'.

 

[Elfmaze]

you almost want to know both the mash outlet temp AND the element outlet. The mash out is what you are controlling. but you can't let the element out spike.

I've been a fan of SABCO's thinking but there prices are killer....

 

[Sawdustguy]

In another thread I argued that it would cost about $500 in parts to make a Chill Wizard and that while Sabco is making a buck on them, they aren't making the killing everybody thinks they are. On this product, however, having build my own RIMS brewery, there is definetely major cost savings to be had in doing it yourself. Lets have a look.

Basically it is the exact same setup I diagrammed in my https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/rims-dummies-114997/ with the exception of the fancy PLCC. I recommended using a $45 PID instead of a $850 process computer with touch screen. If you view the thread, you could build one for about $325 without a mounting frame. If you are so inclined, standard quick disconnects could be used instead of sanitary connectors for additional cost savings. For those who may consider a build like this the DIY skills needed are low with only a good set of pliers, some wrenches, a pair of diagonal cutters, a flat blade screw driver and a utility knife being the only tools needed. Most of the project would involve fitting some prethreaded plumbing fittings together and some minimal wiring. It is within the reach of almost all home brewers.

 

[remilard]

In another thread I argued that it would cost about $500 in parts to make a Chill Wizard and that while Sabco is making a buck on them, they aren't making the killing everybody thinks they are. On this product, however, having build my own RIMS brewery, there is definetely major cost savings to be had in doing it yourself. Lets have a look.

Basically it is the exact same setup I diagrammed in my https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/rims-dummies-114997/ with the exception of the fancy PLCC. I recommended using a $45 PID instead of a $850 process computer with touch screen. If you view the thread, you could build one for about $325 without a mounting frame. If you are so inclined, standard quick disconnects could be used instead of sanitary connectors for additional cost savings. For those who may consider a build like this the DIY skills needed are low with only a good set of pliers, some wrenches, a pair of diagonal cutters, a flat blade screw driver and a utility knife being the only tools needed. Most of the project would involve fitting some prethreaded plumbing fittings together and some minimal wiring. It is within the reach of almost all home brewers.

This comes back to the whole is it overpriced or is it nicer than what I want question, but there is absolutely no way that you do it for anywhere close to $325 with a heating element with the same construction (stainless) and fitting (sanitary). I can tell you from experience that a stainless heating element with a tri-clamp fitting is very nice, but it is a very expensive part (or at least I can't imagine how the typical DIYer is going to get one other than buying it from Sabco). Even if you can weld the element into the ferrule yourself, I will make the assumption that stainless elements are not easy or cheap to get since nobody is using them (other than Sabco).

 

[Brewmoor]

http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/51-598-water-heater-elements/stainless-steel-water-heater-element-684528.aspx

Here is one for $23. I paid $26 for my 5500w.

Sanitary fittings can be found for reasonable prices too. I think it is very easy to build a similair unit for $325. No problem.

What you have to realize is that sabco has to get their products listed and tested. That is not cheap. Plus the crazy controller is way overkill especially at $500+.

So I understand why they have to sell it at that price to make a profit. I just don't know too many "homebrewers" that would pay it, when most are crafty enough to make their own.

I suspect they are selling these to microbreweries and brewpubs that are using it as a pilot system. Their time and instant ability to use the product is worth the price.

 

[IrregularPulse]

This comes back to the whole is it overpriced or is it nicer than what I want question, but there is absolutely no way that you do it for anywhere close to $325 with a heating element with the same construction (stainless) and fitting (sanitary). I can tell you from experience that a stainless heating element with a tri-clamp fitting is very nice, but it is a very expensive part (or at least I can't imagine how the typical DIYer is going to get one other than buying it from Sabco). Even if you can weld the element into the ferrule yourself, I will make the assumption that stainless elements are not easy or cheap to get since nobody is using them (other than Sabco).

He was saying you can achieve the same outcome for $325

I will make the assumption that stainless elements are not easy or cheap to get since nobody is using them (other than Sabco).

I would take this as what's the point? What is the need for a SS element? The cost doesn't make sense which is probably why only Sabco is using it. Not because they're the only ones that can get it. If they can obtain them, anyone else can too. I doubt they have a proprietary heating element manufacturing company.

 

[remilard]

He was saying you can achieve the same outcome for $325

I would take this as what's the point? What is the need for a SS element? The cost doesn't make sense which is probably why only Sabco is using it. Not because they're the only ones that can get it. If they can obtain them, anyone else can too. I doubt they have a proprietary heating element manufacturing company.

Stainless is easier to clean, more durable, corrosion resistant, etc. Certainly you don't truly fail to see the advantages of stainless in a brewery?

The advantage to the tri-clamp connection is just as large, I'll let you guess what the benefit there is.

The point is that you can only build this significantly cheaper if you use cheaper parts. I'm not going to give you a cookie for figuring out that you can build something cheaper than Sabco with cheaper parts.

 

[IrregularPulse]

Point is it's overkill and can be done for less money. That was the point he was trying to make.

 

[Brewmoor]

The point is that you can only build this significantly cheaper if you use cheaper parts. I'm not going to give you a cookie for figuring out that you can build something cheaper than Sabco with cheaper parts.

Certainly you don't truly fail to see that a company with more overhead has to charge more. Making it for cheaper does not mean you are using cheaper parts.

The only thing the is a cheaper part, is the controller. That has nothing to do with price. It is more to the point that they are just using something more fancy to do the same thing. A pilot brewery does not need $500 temp controller that I am sure is used on a larger scale for food manufacturing. It is just not needed.

Sure it is cool, but a brewtroller could do the same thing for much less money. It is not "cheaper". To me it is smart.

 

[remilard]

Point is it's overkill and can be done for less money. That was the point he was trying to make.

Overkill is defined as spending more than I was willing to spend, right?

Maybe the guy brewing Mr. Beer thinks a cooler mash tun is overkill. Maybe Sabco thinks Claudius B's system is overkill.

You can always do things cheaper, but its dishonest to accuse Sabco for overcharging for an item because you can build it for less money by using less stainless, subbing a PID for a PLC, not using sanitary connections, etc.

If you want to accuse them of overbuilding it, thats fine.

 

[remilard]

Certainly you don't truly fail to see that a company with more overhead has to charge more. Making it for cheaper does not mean you are using cheaper parts.

Show me how to build this device for under $1000 without using cheaper parts than Sabco used.

I figure 700 on a 1700 item is a reasonable figure for labor + margin, I doubt any other equipment vendor is going any thinner than that.

 

[IrregularPulse]

Overkill is defined as spending more than I was willing to spend, right?

Maybe the guy brewing Mr. Beer thinks a cooler mash tun is overkill. Maybe Sabco thinks Claudius B's system is overkill.

You can always do things cheaper, but its dishonest to accuse Sabco for overcharging for an item because you can build it for less money by using less stainless, subbing a PID for a PLC, not using sanitary connections, etc.

If you want to accuse them of overbuilding it, thats fine.

Overkill is not spending more than you were willing. Overkill is doing more than needed.
I never accused them of over charging. Over building yes. I'm sure there price is fair for what they're selling, Just that it could be built and sold a lot cheaper. Mainly the controller portion as brewmoor is saying.

 

[BrewBeemer]

SABCO's in the market to make money and I bet many people that are not DIY types will gladly pay for one. The only thing that looks like it will get a RIM job is your wallet.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

The Vision controllers are overkill no doubt about it. Even for the full on BrewMagic system the 350 is more than it needs to operate considering the fact that the heating element is not intended to step temps.

I shudder to think of a day when/if my Vision controller decides to go belly up considering the same functionality could be done with less bling and a user supplied laptop/netbook and Sabco derived software application. If I had my preference I would have chosen a much more readily available controller simply for replacement considerations. As it is now, the current BM utilizes only a fraction of the I/O capabilities of the current controller which constitutes at least 1/5th of the cost of the system.

I suspect the decision by Sabco to utilize the Vision series controller for this application had more to do with familiarity than anything given that the 130 used to be part of the Brew-Magic system. Hell, they prolly had an overstock of controllers and "designed" this as a way to move them.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Well put Gila. That is my point. I think the controller is awesome and all, but it is a crazy thing to put on such a simple system.

I don't understand who this is marketed to. Someone who has a ton of cash, but doesn't want a fixture??? If you have $1,700 bananas to through at a heat exchanger with no brewery, why would you not buy the full Brew-Magic? Seems weird to me, but whatev.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Show me how to build this device for under $1000 without using cheaper parts than Sabco used.

I figure 700 on a 1700 item is a reasonable figure for labor + margin, I doubt any other equipment vendor is going any thinner than that.

You obviuosly didn't read my https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/rims-dummies-114997/ thread. The whole think is made from 304 Stainless steel except I recommend the standard Brass disconnects from Mcmaster-Carr to save money. If you really want Tri-Clover's you would need 2 sets from Swagman for $28/ set making the total come to $378.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Well put Gila. That is my point. I think the controller is awesome and all, but it is a crazy thing to put on such a simple system.

I don't understand who this is marketed to. Someone who has a ton of cash, but doesn't want a fixture??? If you have $1,700 bananas to through at a heat exchanger with no brewery, why would you not buy the full Brew-Magic? Seems weird to me, but whatev.

I have been wondering this too which is why I suggested it may be the brainchild of overstocked controllers. Considering that it still does not step temps it's only a portion of what is needed to achieve a mash rest.

I don;t doubt that Sabco is, in fact, justified in the cost to consumer for this modularated rigbased on the parts and pieces included but, even on a commercial application what's the point of it?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Right, I don't think they are price gouging or anything, I just don't get it. I could make a toilet out of solid gold that drew pictures and made balloon animals, but why would anyone do that?

Who really cares about constant mash temp enough to spend $1,700.00 but not enough to buy a full system that will do the same?

 

[remilard]

You guys realize you are talking about a hobby right?

I know guys who spend more on golf than I could possibly spend on home brewing in a Brewster's Millions type scenario.

It's a toy. We all buy toys. Some people buy McMansions. I think that is overkill for my needs, so I didn't buy one. Some people buy luxury cars, I think that is overkill for my needs so I didn't buy one. Some people spend 25K a year on a country club membership, I think you see where I am going here.

I will agree that I don't really see the market for this product as if the rest of your system is similarly overbuilt you might as well have just bought the Brew-Magic.

The only thing I can conceive of is that if you wanted Brew-Magic type RIMS but required a portable system, this would fit the bill. If you split time between two homes you could probably take this with you on the plane and keep kettles and burners in each location. Obviously a tiny market, possibly consisting of zero people.

 

[remilard]

You obviuosly didn't read my https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/rims-dummies-114997/ thread. The whole think is made from 304 Stainless steel except I recommend the standard Brass disconnects from Mcmaster-Carr to save money. If you really want Tri-Clover's you would need 2 sets from Swagman for $28/ set making the total come to $378.

Let me know when Swagman starts selling a water heater element with a tri-clamp fitting.

Add the cost of the element and the PLC to your cost, and you are at about $1000, which is what I think it takes to build that thing with the same parts (or functionally and qualitatively identical parts).

 

[Brewmoor]

Let me know when Swagman starts selling a water heater element with a tri-clamp fitting.

Add the cost of the element and the PLC to your cost, and you are at about $1000, which is what I think it takes to build that thing with the same parts (or functionally and qualitatively identical parts).

I don;t think anyone anywhere makes an element with a tri clamp fitting. However I am sure swagman could make you a fitting that an element screws into.

I doubt the element sabco is using was made specifically for them with a tri clover end. Unless you know something we don't

You do have the swager of an employee or other loyal person close to the company.