New England IPA: Great out of fermenter, terrible after kegging

[Whatthehellisgoingon]

Brewers, I come to you in an hour of need. I’ll start by stressing one point: I don’t know how oxidation could be an issue. All fermenters/cold crashing/kegging was conducted with every manner of seal/pressurized transfer/ etc.

TLDR: Perfect out of the fermenter. Terrible after kegging.

Below please find the recipe:



4 packs Omega OYL-402 cosmic punch ale. Lake Michigan tap water (aware that water chemistry is important but have read water in this area is pretty good for the style)

After brewing the above, we are 3/3 for the same issue. Great aroma, seems on point with color/haze when compared to similar styles out of commercial breweries. And yet, we have a watery and slightly bitter taste in the body.

After the first fail we began tasting out of the conical fermenter post fermentation. Each time we’ve been excited since the pre-carb beer had everything you’d expect in a Hazy New England.

However, after pressurized transfer into kegs and letting sit for 2 weeks we are left with the above issue.

Has anyone had the same issue? Happy to answer any additional questions that might help. Below a link to a picture of current brew (right( and a commercial New England (left).



Thanks in advance.

 

[JohnSand]

Welcome aboard!
Sorry you're having this problem. Oxidation can cause darkening. Did your brew change color in the keg? Thin and bitter reminds me of infection, though that would also cause over carbing. Whatever the cause, I'm sure you can solve it. Most of us have had a streak of bad brews or a style that's hard to achieve.

 

[Pennine]

Are you cold crashing when you transfer and let sit for 2 weeks? Or is it at room temp?

 

[Whatthehellisgoingon]

Welcome aboard!
Sorry you're having this problem. Oxidation can cause darkening. Did your brew change color in the keg? Thin and bitter reminds me of infection, though that would also cause over carbing. Whatever the cause, I'm sure you can solve it. Most of us have had a streak of bad brews or a style that's hard to achieve.

Thank you! Long time lerker, first time poster. Color remained the same from conical to pour post-carb. I have a picture posted above of a comparison to commercial NEIPA.

Well here’s hoping the streak ends soon!

 

[Whatthehellisgoingon]

Are you cold crashing when you transfer and let sit for 2 weeks? Or is it at room temp?

Cold crash to 32 f for 48 hours. Kegged and pressurized to 10 psi for 2 weeks at 45 f

 

[AlexKay]

Working under the assumption that the beer is good after fermentation but dies in the keg (Devil’s Advocate position would be that you can’t judge the green beer accurately; I think this is unlikely.)

If you’re up to it, post your whole fermentation and kegging procedure in minute detail. There may be oxygen ingress you’re missing that someone here could spot.

Do you have PVC lines attached to your keg? That would be one trouble spot. Silicone O-rings?

Can your conical handle pressure so that you could spund?

Another idea would be to store colder to slow down oxidation.

 

[redrocker652002]

Thought from a newbie. 4 packs of yeast for 12 gallons seems high to me. I use one pack for 5 gallons, so maybe three at the most. Not sure that would have anything to do with what you are experiencing, but I am going to follow this as I do a lot of IPA's and am trying to learn the pressure transfer stuff. Rock On!!!!!!!

 

[day_trippr]

Definitely post-fermentation oxidation. It takes a special level of oxidation-avoidance rigor to keep a New England IPA "fresh" for long. We have lots of threads on HBT concerning the problem and how to avoid it...

Cheers!

 

[Pennine]

Cold crash to 32 f for 48 hours. Kegged and pressurized to 10 psi for 2 weeks at 45 f

I was thinking about hop creep, but it shouldn't be an issue at those temps.

Then it's likely yeast dropping out of suspension or oxidation. I would start enjoying it sooner.

 

[agentbud]

I know you stressed the point about keeping O2 out but just out of curiosity, what is your process for cold crashing. Any chance you are getting O2 drawn in from the negative pressure of the cold crash?

 

[Whatthehellisgoingon]

Working under the assumption that the beer is good after fermentation but dies in the keg (Devil’s Advocate position would be that you can’t judge the green beer accurately; I think this is unlikely.)

If you’re up to it, post your whole fermentation and kegging procedure in minute detail. There may be oxygen ingress you’re missing that someone here could spot.

Do you have PVC lines attached to your keg? That would be one trouble spot. Silicone O-rings?

Can your conical handle pressure so that you could spund?

Another idea would be to store colder to slow down oxidation.

Thank you for offering to take a look! Below please find our brewing process. Ingredients are listed above.

Equipment:

Electric Brew System. Pump Transfer

SS Brew Tech 20 Gallon Mash ton

14 gallon SS brew tech mash ton converted to electric boil kettle

10 gallon sparge tank

14 gallon SS Brew tech conical FTS fermenter

Link to brew set up:

Mash ton filled with 12 gallons Chicago Tap water and heated to 152

• 2-Row / Golden Promise milled. Remaining grains not milled.
• Mashed in at 152 f. Brought back up to 152 f and recirculated for 90 mins
• Pre boil gravity: 1.060
• Transferred to boil kettle brought to boil (60 min) / Sparge rinse during transfer
• 1 Whirlfloc tablet / 1 tablespoon yeast nutrient 15 min boil
• End of boil.
• Begin whirlpool @ 175 f (25 min)
• OG 1.065. Transfer to conical fermenter
• Pitch 4 packs Omega Comic Punch @ 68 f
• Let Rise to 72 f. held at 72 f
• Dry hop 1 on day 2
  1. Dry hop conducted with purge chamber at top of fermenter. No oxygen exposure
• Dry hop 2 on Day 5
• Final Gravity 1.010.
• Cold crash on Day 12 to 32 f (48 hrs)
• Transfer to keg from conical. CO2 purge. No oxygen exposure
• Kegs pressurized to 10 psi for 14 days.
• Drink

 

[Whatthehellisgoingon]

I was thinking about hop creep, but it shouldn't be an issue at those temps.

Then it's likely yeast dropping out of suspension or oxidation. I would start enjoying it sooner.

Thanks for the notes! How would I keep yeast from dropping out of suspension?

 

[Whatthehellisgoingon]

I know you stressed the point about keeping O2 out but just out of curiosity, what is your process for cold crashing. Any chance you are getting O2 drawn in from the negative pressure of the cold crash?

SS brew tech conical fermenter with internal coils built in. AC unit used to pump gel through coils to crash.

I actually thought about O2 draw but the fermenter is well sealed and we had our blow off well dropped into the star San bucket. I have a picture in a previous reply in this thread of the set up. Below is blow off system during cold crash. Think we’re still pulling in O2 ? Taste test after crash was everything we’d hoped it be.

 

[day_trippr]

Transfer to keg from conical. CO2 purge. No oxygen exposure

Describe your "CO2 purge" process...

[edit] Also, how do you ensure your fermentor doesn't suck up whatever's in your blow-off vessel when you cold-crashed the fermentor? If it doesn't suck up, wouldn't that imply your fermentor is not actually sealing when under an internal vacuum?

Cheers!

 

[agentbud]

SS brew tech conical fermenter with internal coils built in. AC unit used to pump gel through coils to crash.

I actually thought about O2 draw but the fermenter is well sealed and we had our blow off well dropped into the star San bucket. I have a picture in a previous reply in this thread of the set up. Below is blow off system during cold crash. Think we’re still pulling in O2 ? Taste test after crash was everything we’d hoped it be.

Unless you have a source of CO2 to counter the negative pressure, its going to pull from your blowoff tube, whether that be O2 or liquid from the blow-off bucket.
Also, I noticed in your recipe you had 1.082 OG and 1.022 FG but your results posted above show 1.065 OG and 1.010 FG. Quite a difference. Curious why you did not mill the non-2-row grains. I get the flaked not milled but why not the others?
Also, during transfer to keg, you said CO2 purged. I assume that means the keg. What are you doing from the fermenter side to keep O2 from entering? ie CO2 pushed, closed loop, etc. Even if the keg is purged, if you are allowing O2 in as the fermenter drains, that is a source of O2.

 

[Pennine]

Thanks for the notes! How would I keep yeast from dropping out of suspension?

No clue! The only way I know how is to enjoy sooner.

I have similar issues to you, some hops are worse than others. My recent idea to help is to minimize trub transfer and let the cooled wort sit for an hour before transfer to fermenter.

Not much more you can do to prevent O2 during the keg transfer other than maybe adding metabisulfites.

Edit I should say I have the color issue not the flavor issue. For that my only other thought is maybe a diastaticus infection? Have you brewed a saison or Belgian recently?

 

[RCope]

@Whatthehellisgoingon you got me at "blowoff tube during cold crash"...

 

[Whatthehellisgoingon]

Describe your "CO2 purge" process...

[edit] Also, how do you ensure your fermentor doesn't suck up whatever's in your blow-off vessel when you cold-crashed the fermentor? If it doesn't suck up, wouldn't that imply your fermentor is not actually sealing when under an internal vacuum?

Cheers!

Admittedly things didn’t go as planned the most recent time around. Couldn’t get the pressurized transfer to work (not sure why yet, has worked fine before). Solution was to transfer from the conical and, while the keg was filling, pushing CO2 from the top into the keg while filling (understandably not ideal). Co2 was continuous while filling. Keg was pressurized with CO2 during the transfer.

That being said, the same batch brewed the same way with a successful pressurized transfer yielded the same taste issues (actually, someone what worse with the successful pressurized transfer)

 

[Whatthehellisgoingon]

Unless you have a source of CO2 to counter the negative pressure, its going to pull from your blowoff tube, whether that be O2 or liquid from the blow-off bucket.
Also, I noticed in your recipe you had 1.082 OG and 1.022 FG but your results posted above show 1.065 OG and 1.010 FG. Quite a difference. Curious why you did not mill the non-2-row grains. I get the flaked not milled but why not the others?
Also, during transfer to keg, you said CO2 purged. I assume that means the keg. What are you doing from the fermenter side to keep O2 from entering? ie CO2 pushed, closed loop, etc. Even if the keg is purged, if you are allowing O2 in as the fermenter drains, that is a source of O2.

Gotcha. Would pressurizing the conical during cold crash with CO2 work? Set the regulator to 1 psi and let it ride?

To clarify I milled everything that wasn’t already flaked.

With regards to the OG difference from recipie, agreed, not ideal. Best we can tell we are having efficiency issues since moving from propane 5 gallon to 10 gal electric. One going work on that front. Not sure that’s driving the taste issue though given the results we get out of the fermenter.. good call out though

 

[agentbud]

Gotcha. Would pressurizing the conical during cold crash with CO2 work? Set the regulator to 1 psi and let it ride?

yes. cap off or plug the blow-off hose and add a little co2 pressure to fermenter during cold crash. just be sure your fermenter is rated for pressure (i assume that fancy one in the picture is.)

what I do is use a cask breather (normally used for cask ales). CO2 is connected to the IN side and the OUT side feeds into the top of the fermenter through the blowoff tube. When it's time to cold crash or transfer, I connect the blowoff to the OUT side. The cask breather only allows enough CO2 through to maintain even pressure so it uses CO2 to counter the negative pressure during cold crash and allows the beer to drain during transfer with no O2.

 

[day_trippr]

Yes, remove the blow-off tube and apply minimal CO2 pressure through the cold crash. I use a cheap BBQ grill regulator in series with a "normal" CO2 regulator to provide a reliable 0.4 psi.

Also, your extra racking doesn't help, and your "CO2 purge" is hella suspect. It is no surprise to me wrt the outcome...

Cheers!

 

[AlexKay]

Let's work through

1. how you purge your kegs of air,
2. how you avoid oxygen exposure during transfer, and
3. how you keep oxygen out of the filled kegs

I suppose there could be another problem, but when it's loss of fresh hop flavor, it's usually oxygen. If your beer gets a big dose of O2 in the transfer process, it will taste fine at first and then lose flavor as oxidation reactions occur, probably over about a two-week timescale (though this will depend on storage temperature.)

#1 -- folks around these parts swear by purging the keg with the hundreds of liters of fermentation CO2. Alternately, you can fill the keg with sanitizer or (better still) deaerated water, go to some extreme lengths to eliminate air pockets so it's really full, and then push that out with CO2. What's your process?

#2 -- Best practice would be to fill the keg through the liquid post, then use a gas-to-gas jumper back to your conical so that you don't pull a vacuum or (even worse) outside air as the conical empties. If you can pressurize the conical with CO2 during transfer, this should also work.

#3 -- Do you have PVC tubing hooked up to your kegs? Do your kegs have red o-rings (i.e., silicone)? PVC is permeable enough to allow your beer to oxidize, and silicone is so permeable even a single o-ring could cause a problem.

 

[DonT]

Yes, remove the blow-off tube and apply minimal CO2 pressure through the cold crash. I use a cheap BBQ grill regulator in series with a "normal" CO2 regulator to provide a reliable 0.4 psi.

I'd be really interested to see a picture of this set up...

 

[day_trippr]

My pleasure, but it's as simple as described: I have a dual primary regulator that services two 17cf top-freezer fridges that are my primary fermentation chambers, each fridge having 1:4 gas beams. When it is time to cold-crash fermentors I insert "BBQ" propane regulators that are permanently set for 11" WC (or roughly .4 psi) to put slight positive pressure on the otherwise sealed fermentors. I have two BBQ regulators, one is a dual-stage Marshall which was bought for a different purpose and is way overkill for this task, and an uber cheap Camco (cost all of $8 at the local Home Depot) which is perfect.

Camco reg...

Marshall reg in use. The PTC fittings make it easy to put these regs in and out of service...

Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

folks around these parts swear by purging the keg with the hundreds of liters of fermentation CO2.

Nah, I have not seen anyone on HBT swearing by CO2 purges - once they understand how many cycles it takes to get the O2 content down where one wants to be. You could say that folks around these parts have been educated about that (thanks, @doug293cz )
What is popular is either the "Star San Purge" (fill keg to totally full with no-rinse sanitizer then push it all back out with CO2) or to a much lesser extent using fermentation gas to do the work. I usually do the latter but use the former when necessary...

Cheers!

 

[AlexKay]

Nah, I have not seen anyone on HBT swearing by CO2 purges - once they understand how many cycles it takes to get the O2 content down where one wants to be. You could say that folks around these parts have been educated about that (thanks, @doug293cz )
What is popular is either the "Star San Purge" (fill keg to totally full with no-rinse sanitizer then push it all back out with CO2) or to a much lesser extent using fermentation gas to do the work. I usually do the latter but use the former when necessary...

Cheers!

Um … is what I said? “Hundreds of liters of fermentation gas” and all.

 

[Spivey24]

Did you make sure to purge your transfer lines with CO2 before transferring? It could be a combination of things with some oxygen from the kegs, some from the lines and valves, and some from cold crash.

Also did you taste the beer after just a few days, and after a week to see if it got worse?

 

[HazyBeer]

Does it taste oxidized? Because based on your grains the color may be fine? Most NEIPAs use pils as the base malt which is lighter than golden promise. Also they use white wheat and or oats at 30% or more. Finally what did you mean about the unmilled grains? Where they put in the mash?

• 
  
• 2-Row / Golden Promise milled. Remaining grains not milled.

 

[day_trippr]

Um … is what I said? “Hundreds of liters of fermentation gas” and all.

Lol! Sorry, I blanked there and totally missed it. My bad

 

[Bassman2003]

Here are some cold side thoughts:

1) Spunding. Transfer the beer towards the very end of fermentation into your keg. Cap the keg and let the CO2 build naturally. This is the absolute best for eliminating O2 as transferring fermenting beer has active yeast which scavenge any O2 that gets in. More time consuming and tricky to "catch the spund".

2) Can your fermenter hold pressure? This is the 2nd best way. close off your fermenter at some stage in the ferment and let the beer carbonate. Then transfer the carbonated beer to your keg. This method goes well with hooking up the keg to the fermenter get purged during fermentation. Easy once you get it set up. Solves the cold crash scenario as well.

3) Use EVA Barrier tubing for all transfer and keg lines. It is cheap and it has the best O2 ingress characteristics.

4) Avoid tank gas anywhere you can. It has Oxygen in it to varying amounts.

5) (more extreme) Watch and limit the time you connect and disconnect Quick Disconnects. There is an air pocket you push into the keg every time you connect. I purchased a little air gun blower from Harbor Freight which I can connect to my CO2 tank. I blow CO2 up into the QD as I mount it on the keg. Sounds over the top but that connection will be on the keg for a month or two and the thing was only $3 at Harbor Freight!

 

[AlexKay]

Here are some cold side thoughts:

1) Spunding. Transfer the beer towards the very end of fermentation into your keg. Cap the keg and let the CO2 build naturally. This is the absolute best for eliminating O2 as transferring fermenting beer has active yeast which scavenge any O2 that gets in. More time consuming and tricky to "catch the spund".

Any reason this would work better than doing a closed transfer into a keg that contains priming sugar, and letting it carbonate via "keg conditioning"?

 

[Bassman2003]

Well, you would not get the benefit of having the active yeast during and directly after your transfer. Also, getting the sugar in the keg might be a small challenge without adding O2. I have used priming sugar by injecting it into the fermenter, waiting 30 minutes for activity then transferring. Just using the already active yeast is the easiest and best. But in the end, having active yeast involved at all is the most important part.

 

[Bobby_M]

Thought from a newbie. 4 packs of yeast for 12 gallons seems high to me. I use one pack for 5 gallons, so maybe three at the most. Not sure that would have anything to do with what you are experiencing, but I am going to follow this as I do a lot of IPA's and am trying to learn the pressure transfer stuff. Rock On!!!!!!!

Without knowing the age of the packs you can't really even guess how much yeast was needed. However, with a 1.082 OG, I'd say 4 fresh packs is about right.

 

[Bobby_M]

You're definitely picking up oxygen. Hazy NEIPAs find the chink in everyone's no-oxygen armor.

1. You pulled in air during the cold crash, no doubt about that. Keep CO2 applied at 1psi during crashing.

2. Fill the keg to the tippy top with water. Add 1oz of starsan. Apply lid and roll the keg around to mix. Push all that sanitizer into your second keg via CO2 pressure by making a liquid to liquid jumper hose. Lock the keg's vent open so it will fill. Once the second keg is full, push THAT out with CO2 pressure also.
Now vent the CO2 out of the keg through the hose you're going to attach to the fermenter, then attach it. Note that the keg that is being filled should have a gas QD attached with a hose going down into a bucket of starsan. Stop the flow when beer overflows the gas hose. Move the black QD to your second keg AFTER you've vented the pressure. Fill that one the same as the first.

It uses a lot of gas, but welcome to golden hoppy hazies.

 

[wdavis2003]

This is a tough style to hit. I'm a big fan of using ascorbic acid in the mash on NEIPA's. Just be sure to adjust any other acid's you typically use in your water. Speaking of water.. you have all that great equipment but are trusting tap water with your NEIPA's? When it comes to NEIPA's, if it can go wrong, it will go wrong

 

[redrocker652002]

Without knowing the age of the packs you can't really even guess how much yeast was needed. However, with a 1.082 OG, I'd say 4 fresh packs is about right.

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