New Danstar Belle Saison Dry Yeast?

[doublebogey10]

Yeast won't care. It eats everything. Don't worry, though, it leaves more body than you'd think.

More body ... that's kind of what I was going for. A fuller body with a crisp, dry finish.

 

[The_Glue]

Where does the feeling of body comes from when the yeast eats all the sugars?

 

[Tinpanharry]

The body will come from the high mash temps. Higher mash temps = less fermentables and higher body. Lower mash temps = more alcohol, dryer finish, thinner body.

 

[peterj]

I believe saison yeasts, and especially this yeast it seems like, produce more glycerol than others which fills out the mouth feel and body.

 

[beergolf]

I believe saison yeasts, and especially this yeast it seems like, produce more glycerol than others which fills out the mouth feel and body.

Yes that is what give the mouthfeel and body for this yeast (also for 3711)

 

[HawleyFarms]

Just wanted to say I've been using this yeast with amazing results in saison cysers. I am definitely a big fan. Gives great results fermented at recommended temps all the way down to 60-65 too.

 

[skunkfunk]

The body will come from the high mash temps. Higher mash temps = less fermentables and higher body. Lower mash temps = more alcohol, dryer finish, thinner body.

That wouldn't seem to be the case with this one. I think it eats the "unfermentables" too, kinda like brett. Just anecdotal experience, but this yeast is ridiculously attenuative and doesn't seem to care about the mash temp. It does chug along quite a bit longer than you would think, though, slowly lowering the FG down sometimes below 1.000

 

[Osedax]

That wouldn't seem to be the case with this one. I think it eats the "unfermentables" too, kinda like brett. Just anecdotal experience, but this yeast is ridiculously attenuative and doesn't seem to care about the mash temp. It does chug along quite a bit longer than you would think, though, slowly lowering the FG down sometimes below 1.000

Attenuation is determined by how much maltotriose a yeast can consume before expending it's energy. Belle Saison can pretty much eat all of it (maybe even slightly longer chains).

 

[skunkfunk]

Attenuation is determined by how much maltotriose a yeast can consume before expending it's energy. Belle Saison can pretty much eat all of it (maybe even slightly longer chains).

Do what? Tell me more! Why would they need energy to consume sugar that's supposed to give them energy, and why can other microbes do it until it's all gone much more easily?

 

[sweetcell]

another potential problem with the "mash high for more unfermentables & body" approach is that it doesn't hold for modern, highly (overly?) modified malts. in theory, mashing high produces more body because alpha amylase, which is favored at those temps, cannot cleave long chain sugar in the same way as beta amylase (which is favored in the lower 140's). beta amylase doesn't last long in the 150's (gets denatured), however if you have enough of it then it sticks around long enough to do its job.

i've heard two interviews in the past month from pro brewers who said that with most malts (especially north american malts) they get complete conversion in under 20 minutes regardless of what temp they mash at. unless you're using something undermodified, like a floor-malted bohemian pilsner, going from 152 to 158 might not make a difference.

then you throw in BS/3711, and it's going to laugh at your puny mash temperatures anyways

 

[jdanderson1449]

I just bottled a beer that I used this in. I love it. It's an angry fermenting monster though. It created so much krausen that after it settled, I was concerned there was an infection.

My beer started at 1055 and ended around 1002.

 

[Osedax]

Do what? Tell me more! Why would they need energy to consume sugar that's supposed to give them energy, and why can other microbes do it until it's all gone much more easily?

Energy wasn't the best word but, it was the shortest. The yeast needs to be able to stay healthy in the alcohol which requires strong cell walls and energy. Also, yeast need certain stored up enzymes to cleave maltotriose into sucrose and glucose before it can be absorbed. Glucose and sucrose can be absorbed right away.

Side note: lager yeast actual prefers maltotriose as opposed to glucose and sucrose. Not sure why.

 

[Tinpanharry]

Energy wasn't the best word but, it was the shortest. The yeast needs to be able to stay healthy in the alcohol which requires strong cell walls and energy. Also, yeast need certain stored up enzymes to cleave maltotriose into sucrose and glucose before it can be absorbed. Glucose and sucrose can be absorbed right away.

Side note: lager yeast actual prefers maltotriose as opposed to glucose and sucrose. Not sure why.

This is one of those learning moments for me. I learn SO MUCH from this site. :rockin:

I used this yeast last year in a Saison from Tasty http://www.tastybrew.com/newrcp/detail/285

And forgot about it for 4 months. It was fantastic.

 

[skunkfunk]

Energy wasn't the best word but, it was the shortest. The yeast needs to be able to stay healthy in the alcohol which requires strong cell walls and energy. Also, yeast need certain stored up enzymes to cleave maltotriose into sucrose and glucose before it can be absorbed. Glucose and sucrose can be absorbed right away.

Side note: lager yeast actual prefers maltotriose as opposed to glucose and sucrose. Not sure why.

After reading your explanation and then the side note, my head exploded. Are you sure about that? These two statements simply cannot coexist!

 

[Osedax]

After reading your explanation and then the side note, my head exploded. Are you sure about that? These two statements simply cannot coexist!

About lager yeast preferring maltotriose? I reread that and, yeah, that makes no sense. I knew that fact was screwy. I mixed it up. Lager yeast does a better job of utilizing maltotriose than ale yeast. Yet, they have about the same attenuation tendencies. I knew it was something weird, just not as weird as I made it. Good catch.

 

[MarkKF]

Just wanted to say I've been using this yeast with amazing results in saison cysers. I am definitely a big fan. Gives great results fermented at recommended temps all the way down to 60-65 too.

Have you or anyone tried this one with just apple cider, no added sugar?

I would like to try a nice farmhouse cider with a little funk before moving on to a true Brett sour cider.

 

[Legume]

I have used it in a dry cider a couple of times.
Dry yeast+bottled apple juice+yeast nutrient
It turns out very nice, last time I dry hopped the cider a bit and thouroughly enjoyed it.

 

[HawleyFarms]

Have you or anyone tried this one with just apple cider, no added sugar?

I would like to try a nice farmhouse cider with a little funk before moving on to a true Brett sour cider.

I haven't yet but it's on my list. Actually hoping to grab a couple more 1 gallon carboys today so I can start clearing my to-do test batch list. After having done that hopped cyser, I can imagine a dry cider with Belle would be fantastic. I actually want to try a graff with it. The hopped cyser just keeps getting better with age. I can't wait to bottle my 3 gallon. I want to try a lower abv version of it without it going dry on me but Belle is such a beast even at lower than recommended temps that i'm not sure how to go about it. I'll post when I start the belle graff and cider though.

 

[badlee]

Just want to put it out there that this yeast is a great partner for lacto brevis in a wort with 10IBUs.
Let the lacto go for a week(if you are brave) ,pitch a big healthy starter of Belle and then dry hop like a double IPA with your favourite fruit bomb

 

[skunkfunk]

I haven't yet but it's on my list. Actually hoping to grab a couple more 1 gallon carboys today so I can start clearing my to-do test batch list. After having done that hopped cyser, I can imagine a dry cider with Belle would be fantastic. I actually want to try a graff with it. The hopped cyser just keeps getting better with age. I can't wait to bottle my 3 gallon. I want to try a lower abv version of it without it going dry on me but Belle is such a beast even at lower than recommended temps that i'm not sure how to go about it. I'll post when I start the belle graff and cider though.

I've also been considering a graff with it. My cider with it kinda sucks, it's pretty sour.

 

[badlee]

Just bottled another today.
35% each pils and vienna,20% wheat and 10% cane sugar.
OG came in 7 points low, at 1.052.
FG was
Wait for it........
1.002!

 

[SirHenry]

This is a monster that would ferment its own mother in a heartbeat. My poor little saison has been violated. 1.066 - 1.004 in 50 hours at 75f. Lummee...

 

[ten80]

I've brewed a couple saisons with this yeast and while they fermented quickly and attenuated fully, they lacked the spice of the notoriously finicky Wyeast 3724. Even bringing my fermentation temps up to 80F did not bring out very much saison character. I'm reluctant to go to 90F as I did with the 3724 (necessary for full attenuation).

Anyone have hints as to how to get more characteristic saison yeast peppery flavor and light esters? I may try a smaller pitch next time to stress the yeast a bit.

 

[jcolson916]

I just brewed a rye saison with this recipe last saturday. I haven't done any readings but the krausen has already sunk and there are some great bubble gum/banana aromas filling the room. I started fermentation at about 67 degrees and have risen it slowly to the current 80. I'm going to let it sit for another few days then pump it to the secondary. I was thinking about splitting it in half and infusing fruit in half of it. I live in West Africa and so I was thinking hibiscus...altho it is mango season right now!

 

[skunkfunk]

I've brewed a couple saisons with this yeast and while they fermented quickly and attenuated fully, they lacked the spice of the notoriously finicky Wyeast 3724. Even bringing my fermentation temps up to 80F did not bring out very much saison character. I'm reluctant to go to 90F as I did with the 3724 (necessary for full attenuation).

Anyone have hints as to how to get more characteristic saison yeast peppery flavor and light esters? I may try a smaller pitch next time to stress the yeast a bit.

It is not the same as 3724. If you're looking for it to be in your face like that, it's not going to happen. I took it up to 90F and it was still mild compared to the DuPont strain.

Belle is a strong attenuator that leaves behind more body than you'd think, and I think it's best just taken for what it is.

My advice for getting the DuPont flavor without the pain in the ass is to try WLP566. I used that and didn't ever get above 76F. Nice flavor, good esters, finished quickly without stalling and no need to get crazy with the temps. I believe that is just a different sample of the DuPont strain.

 

[rhys333]

Anyone have hints as to how to get more characteristic saison yeast peppery flavor and light esters? I may try a smaller pitch next time to stress the yeast a bit.

You could always try adding pepper to you beer. I hear it's quite popular.

 

[ten80]

It is not the same as 3724. If you're looking for it to be in your face like that, it's not going to happen. I took it up to 90F and it was still mild compared to the DuPont strain.

Belle is a strong attenuator that leaves behind more body than you'd think, and I think it's best just taken for what it is. I was hoping to get MORE flavor from Belle saison because it is such a great yeast.

My advice for getting the DuPont flavor without the pain in the ass is to try WLP566. I used that and didn't ever get above 76F. Nice flavor, good esters, finished quickly without stalling and no need to get crazy with the temps. I believe that is just a different sample of the DuPont strain.

Thanks for the ideas, I may try 566 instead of trying to get Belle Saison to express different flavors.

Rhys33, I can't tell if you are being sarcastic, but regardless, I find that flavors from yeast are more refined and do not drop out of solution as fast as do those from spices.

 

[rhys333]

ten80 - The pepper thing is definitely something to consider if you want to use Belle or 3711 but also want that extra spice kick. There's a popular recipe on HBT that includes pepper:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/cottage-house-saison-254684/

 

[sweetcell]

Anyone have hints as to how to get more characteristic saison yeast peppery flavor and light esters? I may try a smaller pitch next time to stress the yeast a bit.

BS is amazing for attenuation and leaves behind great mouthfeel, but its flavor isn't that interesting. you're just not going to get the best saison flavor out of it.

i always use it (or 3711) in conjunction with Dupont - let it stall out at high temps, let the beer cool, then add an active starter of 3711/BS.

 

[ten80]

ten80 - The pepper thing is definitely something to consider if you want to use Belle or 3711 but also want that extra spice kick. There's a popular recipe on HBT that includes pepper:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/cottage-house-saison-254684/

rhys333, thanks for the link and clarification!

Sweetcell, I hadn't considered pitching two strains. I might try pitching 3724 at a high temp (85F) for saison flavor, then cooling to 70F and pitching Belle saison to get good attenuation and body.