Imperial Stout recipe, any feedback?

[Hoochin'Fool]

Looking for advice or comments on this recipe for an Imperial Stout...

Water: London profile, with slight boost to Chloride
Full volume mash, 60 minutes, at 149F
OG: 1.100, FG: 1.025-ish, BU/GU: 0.7

BASE (81%)
------------
2-row 77%
Victory 2%
Sugar 2%

CARA/CRYSTAL (6%)
----------------------
Medium 60 to 90L 6%

ROAST (13%)
---------------
Pale Chocolate 2.4%
Chocolate 3.6%
Lt Roast Barley 4.8%
Midnite Wheat 1.2%

Hops:
Columbus @60 for bittering, 55 ibu's
Kent Golding @10 for flavor, 17 ibu's

Yeast:
S-04 yeast-cake

 

[AlexKay]

Well, it could certainly be simplified. Unless you’re using up odds and ends, there isn’t much reason to use four different kinds of roast malt. And you won’t perceive either the sugar or the Victory at those levels. But you could certainly run with what you’ve got, and make a good beer.

The only change I’d make is to use a base malt with more character. 2-row is a missed flavor opportunity. Try a good English pale ale malt.

Though you could think about adding a pound of Munich. Everything gets better with a pound of Munich.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Thx @AlexKay!

Justification time:
Victory, yeah, I've got a bunch to use up (I once read somewhere that 2-row + 2% victory was a fair approximation of a REAL English pale ale malt).
Sugar, well, I wanted to hit 1.100
Roasted malts: I'm in love with variations on this amalgamation of pale choc, choc, roast, and midnite. Soda Lishus! And not one bit of harsh/acrid roast!

But that said, I've got a couple pounds of Briess Bonlander Munich 10L I could work in there...

 

[DBhomebrew]

(I once read somewhere that 2-row + 2% victory was a fair approximation of a REAL English pale ale malt).

Maybe a Briess publication?

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Maybe a Briess publication?

LOL, actually I think it was on good ol' HBT, but damned if I can find it again...


* good chance I was drinkin' when I thought I read that...

 

[BrewMan13]

2 notes, but first off, I don't see anything glaring that needs to be changed, just throwing out my opinions on some other suggestions brought up.
IMO the subtleties of a high quality base malt would be lost in a big, bold, roasty beer like an imperial stout, so I think you're good as is. Also, while generally simpler is better, there are a few instances where it's not a bad thing, and I think imperial stout is one of them. For ex, each of the roast malts have a slightly different character. So while you may not be able to pick out everything individually, the end product will likely still taste "right" and not muddled as it would with that many malts in a subtler beer.
Long story short, brew on!

 

[tracer bullet]

I haven't found water to matter much, it should be good water but I doubt any nuances (i.e. boost to chloride) are detectable. Not me, anyhow. I have needed some baking soda to keep pH in check (though I have red where others do not, so, who knows on that one).

For 1.025-ish you might want to step the mash temps if it's easy (i.e. an all-in -one where you hit buttons for a new temperature) or do a longer mash, get as many fermentables as possible. Don't be disappointed if you end in the 1.030's.

I've been skipping crystal malts in mine, I find them sweet enough already. Or at least toning them down, 12% overall would be a lot for me, again though it's a preference and others can disagree. I'd skip the sugar altogether but it's fine to have, cheat a little for extra ABV and maybe dry it out a touch which is a direction I do like to go (again with opinions).

I'd consider black patent instead of midnight wheat, I think of the latter as being more for color. I like the black patent flavor, though not all might agree. I don't find it ashy or charred at low amounts but do believe I taste the other aspects. 13% overall is fine, but know ahead of time it could be a few months for it to settle out, might be a bit sharp on the roasty stuff until then. I expect and plan for this (and brew Imperials in the summer for winter drinking). On 2nd thought you aren't super high in the Lovibond malts so it won't take forever to be drinkable, maybe that's a good plan with those choices and ratios (i.e. Chocolate being the highest L and only 3.6%).

IBU's seem good, yeast choice is good.

 

[BongoYodeler]

Watching with interest as I have a 1.090 Imperial Stout recipe in the planning stages to be brewed early in 2024.

My "in-process" recipe has MO, Munich, and Briess Dark DME to get me to around 80% base.

Roasted barley and chocolate rye at around 10%.

For the final 10% I want to use GNO, as I've not used them before and would like to try them in a stout. (But I might back them down to 5% and up the roasts by 5%, still kicking that around.

Magnum for bittering and either EKG or Fuggles later in the boil.

Ferment with Imperial Darkness.

 

[tracer bullet]

I like a lot of Munich in mine as well, looking back it's 10%. I can't swear I can taste it, but I think I do. I use 2-Row base, I've used MO as well but again there not sure I can tell the difference and the 2-row is much cheaper and helps ensure I stay under $100 - ingredients for these can really add up.

DME is a great idea, I've started doing that as well. I've been using an Anvil for a while and I fill it up, then sometimes boost with DME to get me into the 1.120's.

I hate rye so I haven't tried chocolate rye, hmm.

I use GNO in a nut brown recipe, and though I love munching on the grains I swear that even at 15% I can not tell they are in there. Maybe I'm just crazy. I'd say give it a shot but don't be surprised if it's not detectable.

I also bitter with Magnum, after 90 minutes it's just for the IBU's anyhow. I favor Willamette but EKG and Fuggles work for sure.

I've been going with dry S-05 yeast, 3 packs for 5 gallons, cheap and just sprinkle it in. I usually make starters and use liquid for other beers but for the Imperials I kind of just save the extra work there since there's already additional steps to take on (stepped mash, long boils, multiple measurements, extra boil time, etc.). S-05 gets me from the 1.120's to the high 1.020's and so I'm happy (I prefer the lower FG).

As long as we are just brainstorming

 

[BongoYodeler]

I like a lot of Munich in mine as well, looking back it's 10%. I can't swear I can taste it, but I think I do. I use 2-Row base, I've used MO as well but again there not sure I can tell the difference and the 2-row is much cheaper and helps ensure I stay under $100 - ingredients for these can really add up.

DME is a great idea, I've started doing that as well. I've been using an Anvil for a while and I fill it up, then sometimes boost with DME to get me into the 1.120's.

I hate rye so I haven't tried chocolate rye, hmm.

I use GNO in a nut brown recipe, and though I love munching on the grains I swear that even at 15% I can not tell they are in there. Maybe I'm just crazy. I'd say give it a shot but don't be surprised if it's not detectable.

I also bitter with Magnum, after 90 minutes it's just for the IBU's anyhow. I favor Willamette but EKG and Fuggles work for sure.

I've been going with dry S-05 yeast, 3 packs for 5 gallons, cheap and just sprinkle it in. I usually make starters and use liquid for other beers but for the Imperials I kind of just save the extra work there since there's already additional steps to take on (stepped mash, long boils, multiple measurements, extra boil time, etc.). S-05 gets me from the 1.120's to the high 1.020's and so I'm happy (I prefer the lower FG).

As long as we are just brainstorming

RE: chocolate rye. I've not used that either, but I think I read that it brings a nice chocolate flavor without excessive roastiness and less spiciness than straight rye malt. I could be wrong though and would love to hear from those who have used it before.

Apologies to @Hoochin'Fool if I'm derailing your thread. But on the other hand, as @tracer bullet says, just brainstorming. Maybe you can find some of this useful to your recipe.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Chocolate rye is more milk chocolate vs chocolate wheat which is more dark chocolate. Both are more chocolatety less roasty than chocolate barley.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Apologies to @Hoochin'Fool if I'm derailing your thread.

Not necessary, love hearing reading the back and forth discussions (and the brainstorming too)!

 

[BrewMan13]

Yeah, chocolate rye is a great malt for dark beers! We talked about it in one of our club meetings and I believe I called it a "cheat code" for porters and stouts. Never tried it in a RIS though.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

For 1.025-ish you might want to step the mash temps if it's easy (i.e. an all-in -one where you hit buttons for a new temperature) or do a longer mash, get as many fermentables as possible. Don't be disappointed if you end in the 1.030's.

I'm on a crappy glass stovetop, so I aim for 149F and let it ride (with reflectix, my mashes only lose about 2 or 3 degrees over 60 minutes). I could give it an extra 30 minutes, if you recommend it.

I've been skipping crystal malts in mine, I find them sweet enough already. Or at least toning them down, 12% overall would be a lot for me, again though it's a preference and others can disagree. I'd skip the sugar altogether but it's fine to have, cheat a little for extra ABV and maybe dry it out a touch which is a direction I do like to go (again with opinions).

Actually, I'm only at 6% "sweet" malts -- I'd broken that into sections: "BASE (81%)", "CARAMEL/CRYSTAL (6%)", and "ROAST (13%)". I've got Briess caramel 60L, or Baird's Medium Crystal, and a couple ounces Fawcett Dark Crystal to use up. Probably going to go with the Bairds plus the last of the Fawcett.

I'd consider black patent instead of midnight wheat, I think of the latter as being more for color. I like the black patent flavor, though not all might agree. I don't find it ashy or charred at low amounts but do believe I taste the other aspects. 13% overall is fine, but know ahead of time it could be a few months for it to settle out, might be a bit sharp on the roasty stuff until then. I expect and plan for this (and brew Imperials in the summer for winter drinking). On 2nd thought you aren't super high in the Lovibond malts so it won't take forever to be drinkable, maybe that's a good plan with those choices and ratios (i.e. Chocolate being the highest L and only 3.6%).

IBU's seem good, yeast choice is good.

I'm a little bit scared of black patent, but I've got some on hand, maybe I will!

 

[tracer bullet]

I'm on a crappy glass stovetop, so I aim for 149F and let it ride (with reflectix, my mashes only lose about 2 or 3 degrees over 60 minutes). I could give it an extra 30 minutes, if you recommend it.


Actually, I'm only at 6% "sweet" malts -- I'd broken that into sections: "BASE (81%)", "CARAMEL/CRYSTAL (6%)", and "ROAST (13%)". I've got Briess caramel 60L, or Baird's Medium Crystal, and a couple ounces Fawcett Dark Crystal to use up. Probably going to go with the Bairds plus the last of the Fawcett.


I'm a little bit scared of black patent, but I've got some on hand, maybe I will!

You don't have to do a long mash, but I've found that the extra half hour gives me a tiny bit more efficiency up front and lower final gravity. Small amounts of each (maybe 3 or 4 percent, and .005 or so) but I take them both. Not a big deal, but if you have extra time let it ride.

You could up the mash temps by adding a little boiling water. Starting at 149 but ending maybe in the upper 150's should break down a few more sugars. Mind you again it'll be to have a lower FG and a slightly drier beer if an Imperial could ever be described as such. I like that, personally, but it depends on what you desire of course.

If you have some black patent, pop a little in your mouth and chew it and see what you think. Whatever your instinct is, go with it either way. It's not the same as it being in the final product but it'll give you a starting point.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

I see a couple people have commented about Chocolate Rye. It is indeed very chocolatey, but I thought it brought a weird black licorice (maybe?) flavor that I didn't care for. Probably just used too much, it was like 6% of the grist -- I basically replaced all the chocolate malt with chocolate rye.

 

[hottpeper13]

On learn to homebrew day I make a bitter of around 1.038 and pitch Notty. I use this cake for my RIS,it is in primary for 4 weeks and then into a barrel for 6-8 months.
I mash at 148-150 for 2 hours ,I shoot for 1.120 + (had one at 1.134), no sugar or DME,most times I get a second runnings beer of 1.040.
I mix house water (400 ppm alkalinity ) with RO to achieve a pH of 5.4-5.5,I find the end result smoother then a pH of 5.2
Boil times can be as long as 2 hrs.
With this much time conditioning I use 3 grams of CBC yeast at bottling and this year found a bourbon barrel aged maple syrup for priming.

 

[hottpeper13]

This is my Black Friday beer and are 1 year Grain to Glass.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Mashing now... Final recipe after game-day decisions:
3 gal into fermenter

8 lbs CMC 2-row brewer's malt (79%)
2 oz Briess Victory (1.2%)
2 oz Flaked Barley (1.2%)
10 oz Baird's Medium Crystal 75L (6.2%)
4 oz Fawcett Pale Chocolate (2.5%)
6 oz Briess Chocolate (3.7%)
8 oz Briess Light Roast Barley (5%)
1 oz Briess Black malt (0.6%)

Actually, used 4 lbs 2-row, plus 3 lbs DME to get the (hopefully) same OG as if I'd used all 8 lbs of 2-row grain.

Brew day finished without any disasters! OG was spot on -- tentative beer name: "25 brix salute".

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

So this turned out really nice for christmas at the in-laws, and was very well received! I set the last 6 bottles aside for later tastings, and found that it didn't taste nearly as nice, 6 weeks later Not sure what went wrong -- the last bottles weren't "bad", but they were nowhere near as tasty as they were at Xmas and the first week of January... 💩

 

[tracer bullet]

So this turned out really nice for christmas at the in-laws, and was very well received! I set the last 6 bottles aside for later tastings, and found that it didn't taste nearly as nice, 6 weeks later Not sure what went wrong -- the last bottles weren't "bad", but they were nowhere near as tasty as they were at Xmas and the first week of January... 💩

That's frustrating. Did they start to take a sour note? You could check the gravity on them, though if you bottle conditioned I suppose it'd be hard to tell if any change was due to that or infection. I've had Imperials turn sour over time, rarely but it's happened and it sucks after so much work. I figure it was an infection of some kind that was slow to get going (beer started to taste like a "sour" beer and the gravity kept dropping (in the keg, no sugar added).

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

There didn't seem to be any extra carbonation going on, and I didn't detect any sourness, but my palate is not at all sophisticated. I'll save the last bottle for a couple months and see if whatever off-taste developed gets a little more obvious.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

*burp*

Finally had that last bottle of the batch referenced in post #19. Tasted quite good, not sure if I think it was better or worse than it was back 5 months ago in february. I don't remember anything specific about what I didn't like from that previously last tasting, but tonight, I say the chocolate flavor is just a bit too much. Probably just my evolving palate, for now I've settled on this BCBS clone for my go-to imperial, which is fantastic, but needs at least 6 months to age 🤷‍♂️