NEIPA dont’s

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GoldenBristle said:
I can guarantee you, from firsthand experience, that Trillium dry hops at high krausen, utilizes tons of CaCl, and tons of adjuncts. FWIW
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What exactly would that first hand experience be?? Did you work at the brewery?

Yes all the street beers and most hoppy beers until just recently have lots of wheat. Treehouse uses none.
HF doesn’t in most of theirs either. It’s not necessary for mouthfeel or haze.

Any time I’ve ever heard JC talking about their dry hopping process it’s always with a few points of gravity left, that’s definitely not at high krausen. Yes there is some activity but you need very little yeast activity to get “biotransformation”. 2-4 points from FG is all you need. All the standard Street beers (non DDH) have one dry hop at the very end of fermentation.
 
couchsending said:
Don’t use wheat
Don’t use Oats
Don’t do low heat whirlpool additions
Don’t use a lot of CaCl
Don’t dry hop at High Krausen
Don’t use 1318
Don’t use Conan

Basically all the things everyone thinks you’re supposed to do. Best ones in the world don’t do any of those things.

Question the narrative. Don’t just follow the heard.
Click to expand...

I did all of these and made an awesome NEIPA, with the exception of using Conan; I used 1318. One can question the narrative to a point but there’s a reason most of those items come up in discussion. Did any 1 or combination of those items make the NEIPA as great as it is, I don’t know. I just know that what I made was delicious.

The yeast alone won’t make the beer, the adjuncts alone won’t make the beer, the hop additions alone likely won’t create the perfect balance. It’s a culmination of events and ingredients. Until you start brewing, you’ll never get it right. I figured out how to produce comparable NEIPAs on my system, and I take pleasure in telling others what I did to help them achieve their goal; it’s why we homebrew.

My initial inputs are posts 19 and 20 I think.
 
madscientist451 said:
Since you're trying a style new to you....Maybe follow an established recipe and brew a smaller batch until you get some experience with it?

Here's one to try:
http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2015/08/tired-hands-hophands-clone-revisted.html
Click to expand...

The recipe was the Brewers Friend recipe of the month and I think it was advertised as being Yooper’s recipe. I’ve brewed several of her recipes with good success but this one was a fail for me.
Just looking for casual observations on the recipe. I find it hard to think yooper’s recipe was bad and at the same time I’m not sure what i did that made my results so poor.
 
That amount of hops especially with a low whirlpool attempt shouldn’t come off as bitter if your water chemistry was correct. Did you use that suggested water profile? Did you build from RO?
 
180°F whirlpooling is definitely going to isomerize some amount of the total available AA which if unplanned for can send the net IBUs through the neipa ceiling into iipa territory - but without the malt backbone to support it.

For neipa's I whirlpool at 170°F...

Cheers!
 
Moose_MI said:
To bitter..really harsh



I struggle to think the very little 60min addition caused it. Keep thinking the 180F whirlpool did it but that’s what the recipe said.
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Is there any chance you different hops than the recipe indicated? And were the AA amounts the same?

There are lots of recipe blogs out there that come with tasting notes and why they re-brewed and what was the result.
Here's one that uses 15 minute, flameout and 180F, rapid chill whirlpool hops, maybe worth a try:

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/
 
Moose_MI said:
To bitter..really harsh

There were echos of a NEIPA that wanted to be heard but were crushed by bitterness.

I struggle to think the very little 60min addition caused it. Keep thinking the 180F whirlpool did it but that’s what the recipe said.
Click to expand...

What's your knock-out time like? I've found that knock-out times are one of the most diverse variables across brew systems, yet recipes hardly account for how long it takes to get the beer from the kettle to the fermenter. So if your HEX is a bit smaller or if your ground water temps are higher, then you may be isomerizing more of those late kettle and whirlpool hop additions than you think.

If it were me and the first batch turned out too bitter like you mentioned, I would adjust the FWH addition down to about 10 IBUs and shift all of the late kettle additions to flame-out/start of whirlpool.

*Shameless plug* If you're looking to try a different recipe, some folks have had success with this one: https://beerandbrewing.com/weldwerk...urce=autopilot&utm_content=debunking-hazy-ipa
 
couchsending said:
That amount of hops especially with a low whirlpool attempt shouldn’t come off as bitter if your water chemistry was correct. Did you use that suggested water profile? Did you build from RO?
Click to expand...

I have good city water that I cut 50% with RO and then add Calcium to get to ~100 and for hop forward beers i add some gypsum. I also add lactic acid to get my PH in range for pale beers.
Do you think I’m missing something?
 
day_trippr said:
180°F whirlpooling is definitely going to isomerize some amount of the total available AA which if unplanned for can send the net IBUs through the neipa ceiling into iipa territory - but without the malt backbone to support it.

For neipa's I whirlpool at 170°F...

Cheers!
Click to expand...

So a number of posts are suggesting my 180F whirlpool addition would still have significant isomerization .... this is a bit of a shock to me. Dogma says you don’t get a lot of IBU from late additions....let alone whirlpool at 180F. What the heck?
I’m happy to find yet another example of dogma being wrong but is that really what you’re suggesting could have went bad on this?

I’m not arguing with you but I’m sitting here going “really? My whirlpool additions are adding significant bitterness?!?!”
 
Tarheel4985 said:
What's your knock-out time like? I've found that knock-out times are one of the most diverse variables across brew systems, yet recipes hardly account for how long it takes to get the beer from the kettle to the fermenter. So if your HEX is a bit smaller or if your ground water temps are higher, then you may be isomerizing more of those late kettle and whirlpool hop additions than you think.

If it were me and the first batch turned out too bitter like you mentioned, I would adjust the FWH addition down to about 10 IBUs and shift all of the late kettle additions to flame-out/start of whirlpool.

*Shameless plug* If you're looking to try a different recipe, some folks have had success with this one: https://beerandbrewing.com/weldwerk...urce=autopilot&utm_content=debunking-hazy-ipa
Click to expand...

So I’m not sure what my time was but recipe said 15min and i would have pulled my hop bag from kettle around that time.

Let’s pretend I didn’t...the idea that the isommerization that was going on for an extra 15min whirlpool at 180F would seem to totally challenge the idea that late hop additions are “flavor” or “aroma”. Is that what you’re suggesting?

Just trying to understand....
 
Moose_MI said:
So I’m not sure what my time was but recipe said 15min and i would have pulled my hop bag from kettle around that time.

Let’s pretend I didn’t...the idea that the isommerization that was going on for an extra 15min whirlpool at 180F would seem to totally challenge the idea that late hop additions are “flavor” or “aroma”. Is that what you’re suggesting?

Just trying to understand....
Click to expand...

I definitely made an neipa that was too bitter. My late additions sat for about an hour at high temps though. My hose was frozen, so I didn’t get it chilled down fast enough. Between extended contact from fwh and boil additions it’s easy to overshoot desired ibu’s.
 
Moose_MI said:
I have good city water that I cut 50% with RO and then add Calcium to get to ~100 and for hop forward beers i add some gypsum. I also add lactic acid to get my PH in range for pale beers.
Do you think I’m missing something?
Click to expand...

What’s “in range”? What’s your kettle
Full ph? What’s PH into fermenter? Calibrating your meter all the time?
 
Moose_MI said:
So a number of posts are suggesting my 180F whirlpool addition would still have significant isomerization .... this is a bit of a shock to me. Dogma says you don’t get a lot of IBU from late additions....let alone whirlpool at 180F. What the heck?
I’m happy to find yet another example of dogma being wrong but is that really what you’re suggesting could have went bad on this?

I’m not arguing with you but I’m sitting here going “really? My whirlpool additions are adding significant bitterness?!?!”
Click to expand...

It’s not having that great of an impact..
 
Moose_MI said:
Mash ph of 5.4ish and I don’t take readings at kettle or fermenter. Can you explain what I should be looking for?
Click to expand...

I would suggest measuring your PH all
along the way... it can have a huge impact on bitterness, clarity of flavor, fermentation, etc. 5.4 might be fine for conversion but 5.2 has a lot of benefits as well. Biggest thing is making sure your Sparge h2o Ph is inline and it stays low all the way through sparging.
 
couchsending said:
Don’t use wheat
Don’t use Oats
Don’t do low heat whirlpool additions
Don’t use a lot of CaCl
Don’t dry hop at High Krausen
Don’t use 1318
Don’t use Conan

Basically all the things everyone thinks you’re supposed to do. Best ones in the world don’t do any of those things.

Question the narrative. Don’t just follow the heard.
Click to expand...

If the haze doesn't come from adjuncts or dry hopping at high krausen, please do provide your explanation for the cause of haze that trumps the rationale provided by Scott Janish and Randy Mosher.

In case you haven't seen that article and podcast I'll sum it up for you:

- Randy Mosher discusses it coming from the adjuncts just like a wit

- Scott Janish discusses the relationship between proteins in the grist binding to polyphenols as a result of bio-hopping and causing permanent haze

- There is also a theory about hop oils coating yeast cells causing some of them to remain in suspension but that would also be a result of high krausen dry hopping

Granted, the haze is not the most important part of the style but it is widely accepted that the haze is a result of the process to brew these. If the haze isn't cause by any of the above, what causes it in your opinion?
 
That podcast was a joke. I turned it off after 10 minutes. He recommends 50% unmalted adjuncts... 50%! That right there means he’s not worth listening to.

No Flaked adjuncts or malted wheat/oats in any core Treehouse beer. Max 15% wheat in Trillium street beers, according to the man himself. Permutation 31,32,33, no adjuncts yet permahaze.

Tons of adjuncts equals beer that degrades at an alarming rate and frankly tastes like sh**. There are other ways to do it and make better tasting beer that will be more stable over time.
 
couchsending said:
That podcast was a joke. I turned it off after 10 minutes. He recommends 50% unmalted adjuncts... 50%! That right there means he’s not worth listening to.

No Flaked adjuncts or malted wheat/oats in any core Treehouse beer. Max 15% wheat in Trillium street beers, according to the man himself. Permutation 31,32,33, no adjuncts yet permahaze.

Tons of adjuncts equals beer that degrades at an alarming rate and frankly tastes like sh**. There are other ways to do it and make better tasting beer that will be more stable over time.
Click to expand...

Ok, I see. Don't do what everyone else is having success with. Randy Mosher doesn't know what he's talking about although his NE IPA's seem pretty well received.

50% adjuncts is the standard in a Wit beer. Those don't degrade at an alarming rate or taste like crap. Granted, for a NE IPA 50% adjuncts may drive the protein content a bit high but that can be countered with kettle finings like Tonsmeire showed us. I hope you're not going to tell us that he doesn't know what he's doing either.

Yes, you can achieve haze without adjuncts and I have even brewed one that way myself. I'll point you back to the Scott Janish article for an explanation of what's going on there. All I'm saying is there's more than one way to skin a cat so to come on here and say don't do all these things that people are doing with the style based on something you read about 2 pro-brewers take on it is ridiculous. As someone in this thread previously said, "don't follow the herd". ;)
 
Wits don’t “degrade” because they don’t have 4# per barrel of dry hops in them. A beer meant to be crazy hoppy that just plain isn’t after a short period of time is the definition of degraded. The overuse of adjuncts is one of the biggest reasons why. With wits there’s a lot less to “degrade”

The 2 Pro brewers I referenced happen to be the two leading producers of the style that people are trying to emulate. I would say they are the ones worth listening to versus homebrewers with blogs. Have you ever had Michael Tonsmeir’s or Scott Janish’s beers? I’m sure they’re good but using them as a reference cause they have awesome homebrew blogs isn’t what I would do. I’d use the breweries that are the producing the references for the product.

This “style” to me has become a joke, people thinking they know how to brew beers like the brewers that inadvertnatly “invented” the style when those folks aren’t doing any of those things.

Do your own research, do your own experiments. There’s other ways to make these beers than what a bunch of homebrewers tell you they think is the right way.
 
couchsending said:
Do your own research, do your own experiments. There’s other ways to make these beers than what a bunch of homebrewers tell you they think is the right way.
Click to expand...

This is pretty much the point I'm trying to get across to you. I have done my own research and my own experiments. I have had success with and without adjuncts. Take a slice of your own advice; there are other ways to make these beers than how 2 brewers tell you they do it. Don't come in here with a handful of things you can't do just to take a contrarian stance when in fact, many of us have had success doing many of the things you think you can't get away with.

And to your point about using breweries as a reference, the NE IPA's that Randy Mosher's brewery are turning out have been pretty well received so again, take your own advice and revisit that podcast rather than dismiss it after 10 minutes.

I find it ironic that you come in here and state "there's other ways to make these beers..." when you're being so closed-minded about it. I prefer to soak up all the information I can whether from home-brewers or pro-brewers while experimenting as much as possible. Jim Koch asked his scientists to figure this style out and they told him there are too many variables and the best way to do it is just keep experimenting. There is a lot we don't yet know about the style but I suppose we should just point the scientists your way since you have it nailed.

edit: FYI, Janish and Tonsmeire are in the process of opening a brewery and also served a NE IPA recently at a fest which was well received. I think they're pretty credible sources.
 
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couchsending said:
Wits don’t “degrade” because they don’t have 4# per barrel of dry hops in them. A beer meant to be crazy hoppy that just plain isn’t after a short period of time is the definition of degraded. The overuse of adjuncts is one of the biggest reasons why. With wits there’s a lot less to “degrade”

The 2 Pro brewers I referenced happen to be the two leading producers of the style that people are trying to emulate. I would say they are the ones worth listening to versus homebrewers with blogs. Have you ever had Michael Tonsmeir’s or Scott Janish’s beers? I’m sure they’re good but using them as a reference cause they have awesome homebrew blogs isn’t what I would do. I’d use the breweries that are the producing the references for the product.

This “style” to me has become a joke, people thinking they know how to brew beers like the brewers that inadvertnatly “invented” the style when those folks aren’t doing any of those things.

Do your own research, do your own experiments. There’s other ways to make these beers than what a bunch of homebrewers tell you they think is the right way.
Click to expand...
You are kinda sounding like the NEIPA haters, whether you are intentionally doing it idk. There is no need to shout down ppl who want to add adjuncts or w/e. I think a milkshake NEIPA sounds terrible, but if that’s what one likes, brew it.

The top breweries may not add adjuncts, but they also have the equipment, ingredients, and knowledge that most of us home brewers do not have. If we cheat a little to produce similar results, then I say go for it.
 
Sbe2 said:
The top breweries may not add adjuncts, but they also have the equipment, ingredients, and knowledge that most of us home brewers do not have. If we cheat a little to produce similar results, then I say go for it.
Click to expand...

The thing is, they DO use adjuncts; just not EVERY brewery on EVERY beer. He knows it too. He even contradicts himself by saying "don't use wheat". Then he goes and cites one of his heroes as using up to 15% wheat

couchsending said:
Don’t use wheat
Click to expand...

couchsending said:
No Flaked adjuncts or malted wheat/oats in any core Treehouse beer. Max 15% wheat in Trillium street beers, according to the man himself.
Click to expand...
 
couchsending said:
I would suggest measuring your PH all
along the way... it can have a huge impact on bitterness, clarity of flavor, fermentation, etc. 5.4 might be fine for conversion but 5.2 has a lot of benefits as well. Biggest thing is making sure your Sparge h2o Ph is inline and it stays low all the way through sparging.
Click to expand...

I have a breweasy ... kettle rims .... no sparge
 
TimmyWit said:
The thing is, they DO use adjuncts; just not EVERY brewery on EVERY beer. He knows it too. He even contradicts himself by saying "don't use wheat". Then he goes and cites one of his heroes as using up to 15% wheat
Click to expand...

Heroes? Give me a break dude. Just referencing the highest regarded producers of the style, you know the ones that put it on the radar. If you’re going to use something as a reference why not use the best, the ones considered the best by the most people. The beers everyone else is trying to copy. And for me the Trillium beers don’t hold a candle to Treehouse and Hill Farmstead in terms of overall execution. They are Hop sledge hammers and the example of what total hop saturation tastes and smells like but they are not as refined or polished.

The first post was meant to be for shock value cause it’s different than what everyone is saying. I’m saying it can be done and be done better ImHo without all the things people think are necessary to produce the style. The goal is to get people to think out of the box and not just follow the heard. You will make better beer and learn a hell of a lot more about how to make better beer by doing your own research.

This style is defined by myths created by others trying to copy it. And it shows in all the horrible executions of the “style” produced all over the US and now the world by not only homebrewers but professional breweries as well.
 
Sbe2 said:
You are kinda sounding like the NEIPA haters, whether you are intentionally doing it idk. There is no need to shout down ppl who want to add adjuncts or w/e. I think a milkshake NEIPA sounds terrible, but if that’s what one likes, brew it.

The top breweries may not add adjuncts, but they also have the equipment, ingredients, and knowledge that most of us home brewers do not have. If we cheat a little to produce similar results, then I say go for it.
Click to expand...

Not a hater at all. These beers produced by a select few are unbelievably beautiful, well executed beers. Yet so many are really really poor executions. I love brewing the style and what research on how the top beers of the style are produced has taught me about brewing. You might not have the knowledge of some of the best now but that doesn’t mean you can’t get there. There are so many things you think you know that should be questioned or at least researched further. Read, listen, absorb especially what the best of the best say. You will make bette beer in the long run, if you feel like it.
 
couchsending said:
The first post was meant to be for shock value cause it’s different than what everyone is saying. I’m saying it can be done and be done better ImHo without all the things people think are necessary to produce the style. The goal is to get people to think out of the box and not just follow the heard. You will make better beer and learn a hell of a lot more about how to make better beer by doing your own research.
Click to expand...

Now that I can get on board with. If your post was meant to be "you don't have to" versus "don't" then I concur. There is definitely a difference between the two and the reason I have been going back and forth with you is your initial post implies that you cannot make a good one if you do any of those things which I think we can both agree is false at this point.

I have experimented with this style a lot and I do feel strongly that Scott Janish's explanation of the haze is the best I have read; it is caused by a bond between proteins and polyphenols that remain in suspension and cause permanent haze.

I feel that if you have too many proteins from a high protein grist combined with too many polyphenols (dry hop quantity and timing), you can end up with a murky mess rather than a juicy haze-bomb. When that happens, you either have to wait for it to settle out, or worse, when it settles it drags everything along with it and you end up with a lifeless beer. I came to this conclusion through experimentation and having both of these happen on previous batches.

a low protein grist combined with dry hopping just before final gravity is reached might be one of the most fool-proof ways to produce the style since the protein/polyphenol quantity will be reasonable. But, it's certainly not the only way.

My most recent stab at it was one of my favorites yet. This one had 12% wheat, 6% oats, 6% Munich 10L, and even 2% C-40 for color. I used whirlfloc in the kettle followed by a trub rest. It fermented at over 90F with Kveik yeast in a keg, spunded for natural carbonation and drinking great 5 days from brew day.

IMG_6177 (1).jpg
 
@Tarheel4985

I had a couple of questions about the recipe if you don't mind.
You say to turn off the whirlpool for the final 20 min. Is that to slow down the ambient cooling, or is there some impact to flavor/aroma you are trying to avoid? Or is that just to let the hops settle out a bit?

What are your temps at each WP addition?

Do you find you extract different flavors/aromas with each WP addition?

Thanks
 
couchsending said:
Heroes? Give me a break dude. Just referencing the highest regarded producers of the style, you know the ones that put it on the radar. If you’re going to use something as a reference why not use the best, the ones considered the best by the most people. The beers everyone else is trying to copy. And for me the Trillium beers don’t hold a candle to Treehouse and Hill Farmstead in terms of overall execution. They are Hop sledge hammers and the example of what total hop saturation tastes and smells like but they are not as refined or polished.

The first post was meant to be for shock value cause it’s different than what everyone is saying. I’m saying it can be done and be done better ImHo without all the things people think are necessary to produce the style. The goal is to get people to think out of the box and not just follow the heard. You will make better beer and learn a hell of a lot more about how to make better beer by doing your own research.

This style is defined by myths created by others trying to copy it. And it shows in all the horrible executions of the “style” produced all over the US and now the world by not only homebrewers but professional breweries as well.
Click to expand...

So what do you suggest be done with the style then? I see lots of talk about what not to do, what do you suggest is the correct way to do it?
 
Well...I did all I could do to get through about half of each keg and decided to declare the patient dead.

I did learn something about that butterscotch thing...pulling the keg back out and letting it come to room temp for a week definitely made a difference...that was cool.

Not convinced the recipe is bad...and not convinced the little 60min addition is why i had so much bitterness. I have not mentioned this before now but I used some dry hops that were pretty old (i think) and I’m also not entirely confident of the storage practices the original owner used. They were all OEM packages but for all i know they were 3 year old and stored at room temp.

I did not get an off smell from them when i opened them but I cant say thy had that fresh hops punch in the face either....a big whiff of them just made me go ... “meh”.

Maybe these hops are what screwed me.....lesson learned...cheap hops are not the deal you think they are

I’m probably going to give this recipe another go but use hops I’m very confident in. Ill skip the 60min addition....i’ll Use fresh yeast......and see what i get

Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread!
Cheers!
 
Moose_MI said:
Well...I did all I could do to get through about half of each keg and decided to declare the patient dead.

I did learn something about that butterscotch thing...pulling the keg back out and letting it come to room temp for a week definitely made a difference...that was cool.

Not convinced the recipe is bad...and not convinced the little 60min addition is why i had so much bitterness. I have not mentioned this before now but I used some dry hops that were pretty old (i think) and I’m also not entirely confident of the storage practices the original owner used. They were all OEM packages but for all i know they were 3 year old and stored at room temp.

I did not get an off smell from them when i opened them but I cant say thy had that fresh hops punch in the face either....a big whiff of them just made me go ... “meh”.

Maybe these hops are what screwed me.....lesson learned...cheap hops are not the deal you think they are

I’m probably going to give this recipe another go but use hops I’m very confident in. Ill skip the 60min addition....i’ll Use fresh yeast......and see what i get

Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread!
Cheers!
Click to expand...
Hey stop hijacking this thread, I was enjoying the schizmatic theological and ontological argument going on there...
Hehe
Just a side note that might be relevant or interesting otherwise. My friend just brewed a pale with zero hot hops but a tonne of dry hop and it was mega bitter. I suggested hop particles but apparently not and we settled on the culprit of excessive humulinones as causing the bitterness.
http://scottjanish.com/zero-hot-side-hopped-neipa-hplc-testing-sensory-bitterness/
Discussed it at length. Of note to you is that these compounds are particularly apparent in older hops. Perhaps you just got a big dose of that young your ibus.
I think Scott got 30 ibu from a 150g dry hop. He described it as vegetal and harsh but not lingering like alpha bitterness
 
divrack said:
Hey stop hijacking this thread, I was enjoying the schizmatic theological and ontological argument going on there...
Hehe
Just a side note that might be relevant or interesting otherwise. My friend just brewed a pale with zero hot hops but a tonne of dry hop and it was mega bitter. I suggested hop particles but apparently not and we settled on the culprit of excessive humulinones as causing the bitterness.
http://scottjanish.com/zero-hot-side-hopped-neipa-hplc-testing-sensory-bitterness/
Discussed it at length. Of note to you is that these compounds are particularly apparent in older hops. Perhaps you just got a big dose of that young your ibus.
I think Scott got 30 ibu from a 150g dry hop. He described it as vegetal and harsh but not lingering like alpha bitterness
Click to expand...


MIND BLOWN.

<EOM>
 

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