NEIPA dont’s

[jturman35]

Straight from Craft Beer & Brewing magazine.

 

[couchsending]

A lot of what people think is necessary for this style isn’t being done by what I would consider to be the top three...
HF, Treehouse, Trillium.

Anyone notice the latest Trillium Permutation grain bills? No adjuncts.

No wheat or oats in any Treehouse beer outside of some random Curiosity.

All of them use in part a High Floccing yeast strain.

None of them use piles of CaCl from what I can tell.

If there is dry hopping during fermentation it’s well after krausen has fallen.

 

[day_trippr]

Ok, I'll ask, from where/whom are you obtaining your information?
It's hard to consider outlier concepts without some terra firma in the equation...

Cheers!

 

[couchsending]

All the info has been stated by the brewers on web forums, their websites, or social media. Other info can be gleened from testing available to anyone who wants to pay for it.

 

[divrack]

Don’t use wheat
Don’t use Oats
Don’t do low heat whirlpool additions
Don’t use a lot of CaCl
Don’t dry hop at High Krausen
Don’t use 1318
Don’t use Conan

Basically all the things everyone thinks you’re supposed to do. Best ones in the world don’t do any of those things.

Question the narrative. Don’t just follow the heard.

Heresy! Foul blasphemer! Apostate! Deviant criminal and Madman, vile defiler of the truth!
Although you may be right.
For what it's worth I use the label neipa to refer to anything that has a **** tonne of hops without much bitterness and a nice full light biscuit maltyness. IPA is anything bitter and hoppy. Apa is the same basically but with American hops.

It's all, like, just semantics dude.
For what it's worth some of my neipas have wheat some oats some don't. All have dry hops added at some level of active ferment and usually some steeping at lower temp. I seem to prefer a good ratio of cl to sulfate but still a great beer when high on the gyp as I used to favour.
No hops for a long boil.

Going back to the op I would remove the 90 min addition. Don't see why it would be undrinkable. Are you sure you are not tasting hop particles from the dry hop?
They will take time to settle and causes that super astringent bitterness

 

[jturman35]

I don’t use hops for any of the NEIPA’s I brew. I don’t see what all the hype is about!

 

[chickypad]

A lot of what people think is necessary for this style isn’t being done by what I would consider to be the top three...
HF, Treehouse, Trillium.

Anyone notice the latest Trillium Permutation grain bills? No adjuncts.

No wheat or oats in any Treehouse beer outside of some random Curiosity.

All of them use in part a High Floccing yeast strain.

None of them use piles of CaCl from what I can tell.

If there is dry hopping during fermentation it’s well after krausen has fallen.

I don't have direct experience with most of the east coast breweries unfortunately, but on Trillium's site the current Permuation has oats. It pretty much looks like all their IPA's have wheat or flaked wheat, except Storrowed which has flaked oats.
Do you have some links where the brewers from these places talk about their hopping techniques? Would like to hear what they are doing instead of the lower temp whirlpool and early dry hopping.

 

[GoldenBristle]

A lot of what people think is necessary for this style isn’t being done by what I would consider to be the top three...
HF, Treehouse, Trillium.

Anyone notice the latest Trillium Permutation grain bills? No adjuncts.

No wheat or oats in any Treehouse beer outside of some random Curiosity.

All of them use in part a High Floccing yeast strain.

None of them use piles of CaCl from what I can tell.

If there is dry hopping during fermentation it’s well after krausen has fallen.

I can guarantee you, from firsthand experience, that Trillium dry hops at high krausen, utilizes tons of CaCl, and tons of adjuncts. FWIW

 

[tjosie]

Agreed. There's only one NEIPA don't at my house and it's:

Don't.

This read in a ron swanson voice in my head.

 

[couchsending]

I don't have direct experience with most of the east coast breweries unfortunately, but on Trillium's site the current Permuation has oats. It pretty much looks like all their IPA's have wheat or flaked wheat, except Storrowed which has flaked oats.
Do you have some links where the brewers from these places talk about their hopping techniques? Would like to hear what they are doing instead of the lower temp whirlpool and early dry hopping.

Permutation 30,31,32... no wheat or oats, tons of haze. Everyone commenting on how soft and smooth they are.

 

[couchsending]

I can guarantee you, from firsthand experience, that Trillium dry hops at high krausen, utilizes tons of CaCl, and tons of adjuncts. FWIW

What exactly would that first hand experience be?? Did you work at the brewery?

Yes all the street beers and most hoppy beers until just recently have lots of wheat. Treehouse uses none.
HF doesn’t in most of theirs either. It’s not necessary for mouthfeel or haze.

Any time I’ve ever heard JC talking about their dry hopping process it’s always with a few points of gravity left, that’s definitely not at high krausen. Yes there is some activity but you need very little yeast activity to get “biotransformation”. 2-4 points from FG is all you need. All the standard Street beers (non DDH) have one dry hop at the very end of fermentation.

 

[chickypad]

Do you know what they do as far as kettle hops? You said no low temp whirlpooling.

 

[Tarheel4985]

View attachment 566979

Straight from Craft Beer & Brewing magazine.

I'm not sure if I would trust that information. The author isn't even from New England

 

[madscientist451]

Just did my first NEIPA and it’s not good. I will drink it until I can quickly brew something else to fill that space in kegerator.

I’m going to do this style again and don’t want to fail twice....

Since you're trying a style new to you....Maybe follow an established recipe and brew a smaller batch until you get some experience with it?

Here's one to try:
http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2015/08/tired-hands-hophands-clone-revisted.html

 

[charger]

Don’t use wheat
Don’t use Oats
Don’t do low heat whirlpool additions
Don’t use a lot of CaCl
Don’t dry hop at High Krausen
Don’t use 1318
Don’t use Conan

Basically all the things everyone thinks you’re supposed to do. Best ones in the world don’t do any of those things.

Question the narrative. Don’t just follow the heard.

I did all of these and made an awesome NEIPA, with the exception of using Conan; I used 1318. One can question the narrative to a point but there’s a reason most of those items come up in discussion. Did any 1 or combination of those items make the NEIPA as great as it is, I don’t know. I just know that what I made was delicious.

The yeast alone won’t make the beer, the adjuncts alone won’t make the beer, the hop additions alone likely won’t create the perfect balance. It’s a culmination of events and ingredients. Until you start brewing, you’ll never get it right. I figured out how to produce comparable NEIPAs on my system, and I take pleasure in telling others what I did to help them achieve their goal; it’s why we homebrew.

My initial inputs are posts 19 and 20 I think.

 

[Moose_MI]

Since you're trying a style new to you....Maybe follow an established recipe and brew a smaller batch until you get some experience with it?

Here's one to try:
http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2015/08/tired-hands-hophands-clone-revisted.html

The recipe was the Brewers Friend recipe of the month and I think it was advertised as being Yooper’s recipe. I’ve brewed several of her recipes with good success but this one was a fail for me.
Just looking for casual observations on the recipe. I find it hard to think yooper’s recipe was bad and at the same time I’m not sure what i did that made my results so poor.

 

[couchsending]

Why was it a fail?

 

[Moose_MI]

Why was it a fail?

To bitter..really harsh

There were echos of a NEIPA that wanted to be heard but were crushed by bitterness.

I struggle to think the very little 60min addition caused it. Keep thinking the 180F whirlpool did it but that’s what the recipe said.

 

[couchsending]

That amount of hops especially with a low whirlpool attempt shouldn’t come off as bitter if your water chemistry was correct. Did you use that suggested water profile? Did you build from RO?

 

[day_trippr]

180°F whirlpooling is definitely going to isomerize some amount of the total available AA which if unplanned for can send the net IBUs through the neipa ceiling into iipa territory - but without the malt backbone to support it.

For neipa's I whirlpool at 170°F...

Cheers!

 

[madscientist451]

To bitter..really harsh



I struggle to think the very little 60min addition caused it. Keep thinking the 180F whirlpool did it but that’s what the recipe said.

Is there any chance you different hops than the recipe indicated? And were the AA amounts the same?

There are lots of recipe blogs out there that come with tasting notes and why they re-brewed and what was the result.
Here's one that uses 15 minute, flameout and 180F, rapid chill whirlpool hops, maybe worth a try:

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/

 

[Tarheel4985]

To bitter..really harsh

There were echos of a NEIPA that wanted to be heard but were crushed by bitterness.

I struggle to think the very little 60min addition caused it. Keep thinking the 180F whirlpool did it but that’s what the recipe said.

What's your knock-out time like? I've found that knock-out times are one of the most diverse variables across brew systems, yet recipes hardly account for how long it takes to get the beer from the kettle to the fermenter. So if your HEX is a bit smaller or if your ground water temps are higher, then you may be isomerizing more of those late kettle and whirlpool hop additions than you think.

If it were me and the first batch turned out too bitter like you mentioned, I would adjust the FWH addition down to about 10 IBUs and shift all of the late kettle additions to flame-out/start of whirlpool.

*Shameless plug* If you're looking to try a different recipe, some folks have had success with this one: https://beerandbrewing.com/weldwerk...urce=autopilot&utm_content=debunking-hazy-ipa

 

[Moose_MI]

That amount of hops especially with a low whirlpool attempt shouldn’t come off as bitter if your water chemistry was correct. Did you use that suggested water profile? Did you build from RO?

I have good city water that I cut 50% with RO and then add Calcium to get to ~100 and for hop forward beers i add some gypsum. I also add lactic acid to get my PH in range for pale beers.
Do you think I’m missing something?

 

[Moose_MI]

180°F whirlpooling is definitely going to isomerize some amount of the total available AA which if unplanned for can send the net IBUs through the neipa ceiling into iipa territory - but without the malt backbone to support it.

For neipa's I whirlpool at 170°F...

Cheers!

So a number of posts are suggesting my 180F whirlpool addition would still have significant isomerization .... this is a bit of a shock to me. Dogma says you don’t get a lot of IBU from late additions....let alone whirlpool at 180F. What the heck?
I’m happy to find yet another example of dogma being wrong but is that really what you’re suggesting could have went bad on this?

I’m not arguing with you but I’m sitting here going “really? My whirlpool additions are adding significant bitterness?!?!”

 

[Moose_MI]

What's your knock-out time like? I've found that knock-out times are one of the most diverse variables across brew systems, yet recipes hardly account for how long it takes to get the beer from the kettle to the fermenter. So if your HEX is a bit smaller or if your ground water temps are higher, then you may be isomerizing more of those late kettle and whirlpool hop additions than you think.

If it were me and the first batch turned out too bitter like you mentioned, I would adjust the FWH addition down to about 10 IBUs and shift all of the late kettle additions to flame-out/start of whirlpool.

*Shameless plug* If you're looking to try a different recipe, some folks have had success with this one: https://beerandbrewing.com/weldwerk...urce=autopilot&utm_content=debunking-hazy-ipa

So I’m not sure what my time was but recipe said 15min and i would have pulled my hop bag from kettle around that time.

Let’s pretend I didn’t...the idea that the isommerization that was going on for an extra 15min whirlpool at 180F would seem to totally challenge the idea that late hop additions are “flavor” or “aroma”. Is that what you’re suggesting?

Just trying to understand....

 

[baldm79]

So I’m not sure what my time was but recipe said 15min and i would have pulled my hop bag from kettle around that time.

Let’s pretend I didn’t...the idea that the isommerization that was going on for an extra 15min whirlpool at 180F would seem to totally challenge the idea that late hop additions are “flavor” or “aroma”. Is that what you’re suggesting?

Just trying to understand....

I definitely made an neipa that was too bitter. My late additions sat for about an hour at high temps though. My hose was frozen, so I didn’t get it chilled down fast enough. Between extended contact from fwh and boil additions it’s easy to overshoot desired ibu’s.

 

[couchsending]

I have good city water that I cut 50% with RO and then add Calcium to get to ~100 and for hop forward beers i add some gypsum. I also add lactic acid to get my PH in range for pale beers.
Do you think I’m missing something?

What’s “in range”? What’s your kettle
Full ph? What’s PH into fermenter? Calibrating your meter all the time?

 

[couchsending]

So a number of posts are suggesting my 180F whirlpool addition would still have significant isomerization .... this is a bit of a shock to me. Dogma says you don’t get a lot of IBU from late additions....let alone whirlpool at 180F. What the heck?
I’m happy to find yet another example of dogma being wrong but is that really what you’re suggesting could have went bad on this?

I’m not arguing with you but I’m sitting here going “really? My whirlpool additions are adding significant bitterness?!?!”

It’s not having that great of an impact..

 

[Moose_MI]

What’s “in range”? What’s your kettle
Full ph? What’s PH into fermenter? Calibrating your meter all the time?

Mash ph of 5.4ish and I don’t take readings at kettle or fermenter. Can you explain what I should be looking for?

 

[jlinz]

Happy to hear this. I’m making a neipa tomorrow and have half an ounce of magnum at 60. Think I’ll skip it.