NEIPA degradation solved????

[isomerization]

I will not disagree that these are far from perfect examples. Not even close. This was an attempt. But why is there such a drastic difference in the two? Why do several bottles that were refrigerated for over a week have a dramatic difference from bottles that were refrigerated for only a few hours?
I am not saying that oxidation is not an issue, I am only saying that there is something else.
As for my example, it never was a bright shining example as far as color goes. The flavor was always pleasurable to me. I think I may have scorched it.

This is much closer to drastic:

From Janish:
http://scottjanish.com/headspace-hazy-ipa-oxidation/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Back in reply #6, there was mention of a topic on successfully bottling NEIPAs. In the spirit of

• anecdotal experiences can lead to
  
• curiosity which can lead to
  
• citizen science which can lead to
• brewing science which can lead to
  
• anecdotal experiences

any of which can lead to making better beer, I'll link these recent topics from either /r/homebrewing or HomeBrew Talk:

• https://old.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/fevxyl/how_to_bottle_neipa_without_kegging/
• https://old.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/e82dor/i_bottle_conditioned_a_neipa_and_so_can_you/
• https://old.reddit.com/r/Homebrewin...ually_you_can_bottle_neipas_at_home_or_how_i/
  
• https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...a-bottle-conditioned-ipa.653784/#post-8729259

Additionally: BYO Magazine, March/Apr 2020 has a survey article on oxygen in brewing. It's behind a paywall, so there is "free time" vs "hobby money" trade-off that one needs to make.

With so many potential ways to "do it wrong", it's good to see @RPh_Guy offering ideas for "doing it right".

... bottling tips here, and it's perfectly viable to bottle beers without oxidation.
https://modernbrewhouse.com/wiki/Low_oxygen_brewing#Bottling

 

[jschein]

I am by no means a low oxygen brewer but I limit on the cold side as best I can. I am most successful at limiting O2 by drinking it quickly

 

[RPh_Guy]

With so many potential ways to "do it wrong", it's good to see @RPh_Guy offering ideas for "doing it right".

Interested in helping out? You make a lot of informative posts with references, which is awesome. Maybe you have an organized collection of bookmarks?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Interested in helping out?

I'll think about the idea over the next couple of days.

Maybe you have an organized collection of bookmarks?

Currently using a Windows-only OneNote notebook that's a couple of year old. I'm slowly looking into more "open" (and "open source") alternatives for both notes (mostly curiousity, as OneNote is doing the job at the moment) and home-made brewing software (again Excel is doing the job at the moment).

 

[jdauria]

Both of those beers are heavily oxidized and look nothing like a NEIPA should. Probably a lot of oxygen ingress when bottling. My guess to why they look different, chill haze settling or hop particles/yeast dropping out of the one that sits longer or has been in fridge. My NEIPA pictured below was kegged and the only change from the first pour (the pic) to the last pour a month later was a slight clearing of the haze from murky to cloudy.

 

[patc890]

I brewed a NEIPA June 24th. I hadn't known about the oxidation problem before I'd bought all the ingredients. I don't have any kegs or CO2 equipment but I figured I'd go ahead and make it. The only thing I did was filled the bottles completely. I've had no problem with carbonation, it actually seems lower when I open a bottle but their is lots of carbonation. I don't think I've had any problem with oxidation. The beer still tastes great and the color is very close (the one I'm drinking right now is in a slightly darker room with no sun outside) to what it was a month ago. So maybe I was just lucky.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I brewed a NEIPA June 24th. I hadn't known about the oxidation problem before I'd bought all the ingredients. I don't have any kegs or CO2 equipment but I figured I'd go ahead and make it. The only thing I did was filled the bottles completely. I've had no problem with carbonation, it actually seems lower when I open a bottle but their is lots of carbonation. I don't think I've had any problem with oxidation. The beer still tastes great and the color is very close (the one I'm drinking right now is in a slightly darker room with no sun outside) to what it was a month ago. So maybe I was just lucky.

If you enjoy it, then it worked, so keep at it!

 

[patc890]

 

[wepeeler]

I don't even want to chime in and say, "I've never had oxidation issues with NEIPAs", but...

I don't even close transfer. Auto siphoning, for the win.

I know people claim oxidation with NEIPAs. I read it all the time. I also realize that a lot of people make beer, but not many people make good beer. I think it's more of a process issue. I'm always careful to clean and sanitize everything. But as far as oxygen is concerned, I open the fermenter to DH (2x) and then to transfer. I've even bottled off the keg and the beer is fine after a month. I've heard people say their NEIPAs are oxidized in a matter of days. That's process...

*I'm sure my NEIPAs lose "something" to oxygen, especially after a month. But it's definitely not that noticeable.

 

[day_trippr]

I also realize lot of people make beer, but not many people make good beer.

I would tend to agree, there's a lot of "meh" homebrew out there in the wild.
And then there are folks that can't tell good beer from not so good beer. Or are simply in denial.

"especially after a month" implies there was noticeable damage prior, yes? Two weeks in? One week?
Try taking a keg of Orange Julius over 6 months and get back to me how good your "process" turned out...

Cheers! ("autosiphon ftw"? Really? )

 

[wepeeler]

I would tend to agree, there's a lot of "meh" homebrew out there in the wild.
And then there are folks that can't tell good beer from not so good beer. Or are simply in denial.

"especially after a month" implies there was noticeable damage prior, yes? Two weeks in? One week?
Try taking a keg of Orange Julius over 6 months and get back to me how good your "process" turned out...

Cheers! ("autosiphon ftw"? Really? )

"Especially after a month" meaning everyone talks about it, so it must be true. My beers don't get dark. Maybe a slight touch of color change, but nothing to make me ever think it was damaged goods. I read about oxidation all the time, but how have I avoided it with over 100 batches of NEIPAs? It can't be luck.

I frequently share my NEIPAs with a local brewery, and the first thing he comments on everytime is the aroma. Apparently oxidation kills aroma first, so I guess I'm good there.

Auto siphon has been working!

 

[day_trippr]

"Especially after a month" meaning everyone talks about it, so it must be true. My beers don't get dark. Maybe a slight touch of color change, but nothing to make me ever think it was damaged goods. I read about oxidation all the time, but how have I avoided it with over 100 batches of NEIPAs? It can't be luck.
[...]

Simple answer: from everything you've related so far, you haven't avoided it at all...

Cheers!

 

[wepeeler]

Simple answer: from everything you've related so far, you haven't avoided it at all...

Cheers!

Let's swap NEIPAs. If you can detect oxidation in mine I'll quit making homebrew.

 

[day_trippr]

You're not that far away.
But if we were to do that, it would be, ummm...3 month old brews. To make it obvious

Cheers!

 

[wepeeler]

You're not that far away.
But if we were to do that, it would be, ummm...3 month old brews. To make it obvious

Cheers!

Mine never last that long. Just sayin

 

[day_trippr]

Right.
Maybe park a bottle for that long, then give it a try.

Here's the context that drives my skepticism: oxidation of neipas is a known frailty that requires much more care than the average ale if it's going to have any legs at all. Having experienced first hand what happens if you treat a brew like Orange Julius or Juicy Bits like one might have gotten away with brewing a classic ipa, and responded by going all-in on cold-side O2 avoidance, I've seen the worst - and the "pretty darned good" wrt shelf life.

Now, check this out Realistic shelf life of a IPA

Cheers!

 

[isomerization]

I don't even want to chime in and say, "I've never had oxidation issues with NEIPAs", but...

I don't even close transfer. Auto siphoning, for the win.

I know people claim oxidation with NEIPAs. I read it all the time. I also realize that a lot of people make beer, but not many people make good beer. I think it's more of a process issue. I'm always careful to clean and sanitize everything. But as far as oxygen is concerned, I open the fermenter to DH (2x) and then to transfer. I've even bottled off the keg and the beer is fine after a month. I've heard people say their NEIPAs are oxidized in a matter of days. That's process...

*I'm sure my NEIPAs lose "something" to oxygen, especially after a month. But it's definitely not that noticeable.

I too had this mentality at one point. I performed open gravity transfers and bottled beers directly off my keg tap and scored high 30s/low 40s in competitions, winning medals occasionally. I thought it was no big deal or that others must just be less process inclined.

Then I moved to a pressurized fermenter for true closed transfers, gas on when dry hopping and oxygen elimination during cold crashing. From day 1 beers are brighter and aroma pops. I won’t discount implicit bias and I haven’t done a competition since switching (shakes fist at Covid).

Maybe consider that your beer is (slightly) damaged from oxidation on day 1?

 

[MrPowers]

I don't even want to chime in and say, "I've never had oxidation issues with NEIPAs", but...

I don't even close transfer. Auto siphoning, for the win.

I know people claim oxidation with NEIPAs. I read it all the time. I also realize that a lot of people make beer, but not many people make good beer. I think it's more of a process issue. I'm always careful to clean and sanitize everything. But as far as oxygen is concerned, I open the fermenter to DH (2x) and then to transfer. I've even bottled off the keg and the beer is fine after a month. I've heard people say their NEIPAs are oxidized in a matter of days. That's process...

*I'm sure my NEIPAs lose "something" to oxygen, especially after a month. But it's definitely not that noticeable.

I would bet that’s it’s oxidized before it’s even packaged and it’s just a flavor that your already used to. Oxidation does usually present as a muted/changed hop aroma first and then shows up as a candy like sweetness in NEIPA’a.

If it’s something that your already used to, then a little bit of oxygen isn’t likely to ruin the perceived taste of your beer in a month. But if you brewed the same beer, one with closed, purged dry hopping and closed transfers and one using your process; I guarantee you would be able to see and taste the difference. For some people, myself included, that difference is stark enough to consider the beer ruined.

 

[wepeeler]

I too had this mentality at one point. I performed open gravity transfers and bottled beers directly off my keg tap and scored high 30s/low 40s in competitions, winning medals occasionally. I thought it was no big deal or that others must just be less process inclined.

Then I moved to a pressurized fermenter for true closed transfers, gas on when dry hopping and oxygen elimination during cold crashing. From day 1 beers are brighter and aroma pops. I won’t discount implicit bias and I haven’t done a competition since switching (shakes fist at Covid).

Maybe consider that your beer is (slightly) damaged from oxidation on day 1?

I would bet that’s it’s oxidized before it’s even packaged and it’s just a flavor that your already used to. Oxidation does usually present as a muted/changed hop aroma first and then shows up as a candy like sweetness in NEIPA’a.

If it’s something that your already used to, then a little bit of oxygen isn’t likely to ruin the perceived taste of your beer in a month. But if you brewed the same beer, one with closed, purged dry hopping and closed transfers and one using your process; I guarantee you would be able to see and taste the difference. For some people, myself included, that difference is stark enough to consider the beer ruined.

That could all totally be true. I'm not saying oxidation doesn't exist, but without comparing open transfer to closed transfer side by side with my beer, I have no real way of telling. Perhaps it is damaged from day 1. But trust me, I'm as picky as anyone when it comes to critiquing my beer, but I just don't see any drop off in aroma or flavor even after 2 months in the keg (when it lasts that long). Color is still light straw, aroma still pops. It's certainly possible that my beer could improve if I did closed transfers, but it's a far cry from being "ruined". Perhaps if I canned and distributed I'd see a remarkable drop off after a few months. Goodness knows it even happens to the big boys.

Also, I'm not proposing that my way is the right way at all. If so many people are on board, including big breweries, then there is absolutely truth in it all. I'm just saying, from my experience, I've been able to avoid the dreaded oxidation. I've filled swing top bottles directly from my keg and had them sit for a month, and they were fine. Whatever "fine" means. No loss in aroma and certainly not dark or sweet.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

As an update to #32: ".. why not bottle NEIPAs?" (/r/homebrewing).