Neipa color

[gr8abe]

Looking for a little input on the murkiness of this neipa.

5 gallon batch

12# 2row (2srm)
2# flaked oats (1srm)
8oz honey malt (25 srm)

Im guessing the dark murk comes from the hops....

1.75 oz CTZ @ 60
1oz cryo citra @ 15
1oz cryo eukanot @ 15
1 oz citra @ high krausen
2oz cryo citra for 5 days (dryhop)
2oz el dorado for 5 days (dryhop)

Yeast: OMEGA British ale V

There's a lot of hop/ vegital material in there, that may be the source. This is pretty young, only a few weeks old, the hop aromatics may change over time, but that murky dark isn't what I was expecting from such a light grist.

Any thoughts?

 

[day_trippr]

Honey malt will raise the SRM/EBC - I've noticed the difference between neipa recipes that don't use any honey malt - they're much lighter.
But that color is significantly darker than what I would expect, and tbh it looks like oxidation effects...

 

[gr8abe]

Honey malt will raise the SRM/EBC - I've noticed the difference between neipa recipes that don't use any honey malt - they're much lighter.
But that color is significantly darker than what I would expect, and tbh it looks like oxidation effects...

Could be O2, I hadn't thought of that. The hops aren't nearly as sharp as I think they should be.

 

[divrack]

Did any oxygen get in there?
Literally all it takes is about 6 molecules and it goes bad.
Could also be a lot of yeast in the bottom of the keg.
I'm guessing oxygen badness though. Seems too dark for that grist even with yeast.
I had a keg go bad because the seal want right and it has sucked in a miniscule amount of air . Turned from golden joy to puddle water in a week.

 

[gr8abe]

Did any oxygen get in there?
Literally all it takes is about 6 molecules and it goes bad.
Could also be a lot of yeast in the bottom of the keg.
I'm guessing oxygen badness though. Seems too dark for that grist even with yeast.
I had a keg go bad because the seal want right and it has sucked in a miniscule amount of air . Turned from golden joy to puddle water in a week.

Maybe, I purged the fermenter before filling it, but I noticed when I poured this beer that the keg was flat, no pressure. It must have leaked air in. [emoji31]

 

[divrack]

Maybe, I purged the fermenter before filling it, but I noticed when I poured this beer that the keg was flat, no pressure. It must have leaked air in. [emoji31]

You also should do a liquid purge of the kegs of you don't already.

 

[Jag75]

You also should do a liquid purge of the kegs of you don't already.

I know mongoose does this as well . Only thing I wonder about this is how much star san/ water is left in the bottom of the keg once you start the beer transfer

 

[OG-wan Kenobi]

That beer looks oxidized to me I used a full LB of Honey malt in a cream ale and that's golden in color.

Most important is how it taste to you

 

[wepeeler]

That's definitely oxidation. Your grist is way too light to have a finished neipa like that. Must have had a leak. Dang...

I've seen more and more commercial breweries that are experiencing this turn as well. I've had cans turn in just a few days. Most breweries will tell you to consume their neipas within 30 days. They always claim freshness, but I think it has to do more with this browning affect. Personally, my neipas darken slightly (and by darken, I mean get a little more orangey, not brown) in the keg after a few weeks, but I can't really tell you beyond that, because they never last that long!

 

[HomeBrewMasterRace]

How did you dry hop? Did you cold crash?

 

[gr8abe]

How did you dry hop? Did you cold crash?

I dumped hops straight in, no bag, no filter. Max contact was 8 days. I did cold crash with pretty good success.

 

[HomeBrewMasterRace]

I dumped hops straight in, no bag, no filter. Max contact was 8 days. I did cold crash with pretty good success.

I had gotten bad suck back before on my Neipa when I cold crashed.

This is a picture of mine, when the hops sunk, they pulled in oxygen, next time I think I'm going to use hop socks and sink with marbles to skip cold crashing.

I thinking that me skipping that step could be helpful, especially because this style is supposed to be hazy and is very suseptable to oxidation; I'm going to try another Neipa on my next batch without cold crash.

 

[day_trippr]

I believe it is far better not to cold crash an neipa at all than to cold crash without oxidation countermeasures in place...

Cheers!

 

[gr8abe]

Yeah, i'm guessing suck back is part of my problem. My keg definitely has a bad seal, but cold crashing a beer that's supposed to hazy isn't something I think I'll need to do moving forward.

 

[HomeBrewMasterRace]

I'm 100% behind that. I'm not going to cold crash and just use hop socks to keep particulates out.

@gr8abe- is it drinkable?

 

[gr8abe]

I'm 100% behind that. I'm not going to cold crash and just use hop socks to keep particulates out.

@gr8abe- is it drinkable?

It's pretty terrible, but I'll drink it out of spite!

 

[Dog House Brew]

I know mongoose does this as well . Only thing I wonder about this is how much star san/ water is left in the bottom of the keg once you start the beer transfer

If you trim the gas post flush with the keg top, almost zero. I push liquid, invert, and discharge out of a gas qd. That is how I do it anyway.

 

[day_trippr]

If you leave the long dip tube intact and position it properly in its well at the bottom of the keg, you'll only leave a half-tablespoon of Star San or less after blowing it out...

Cheers!

 

[divrack]

I know mongoose does this as well . Only thing I wonder about this is how much star san/ water is left in the bottom of the keg once you start the beer transfer

Not enough to be a problem. Think how much beer is left in a keg. Ie practically none. Certainly less than the foam in a bucket cottages by star San..
I tend to use a weak solution anyway, or just water if I'm planning on it going straight to tap and kicking it.
Once is enough times for a super expensive batch of hop nectar turning into puddle muck...

 

[ccous]

Oats make the beer even more prone to oxidation. They are not required to make a great NEIPA

 

[Jag75]

If you leave the long dip tube intact and position it properly in its well at the bottom of the keg, you'll only leave a half-tablespoon of Star San or less after blowing it out...

Cheers!

That's not very much . Way less then what I expected.

 

[IslandLizard]

1oz cryo citra @ 15
1oz cryo eukanot @ 15

Color aside, these beautiful hop additions belong in the whirlpool (or hop stand) after the boil, when you've chilled the wort down to 140-150F. Recirculate (whirlpool) or let them steep (stir well but gently every 3-5 minutes) for 20-30 minutes. Then chill down to ferm temps.

You'll get very little bittering at that low temp, and retain tons of flavor and aroma.

 

[gr8abe]

Color aside, these beautiful hop additions belong in the whirlpool (or hop stand) after the boil, when you've chilled the wort down to 140-150F. Recirculate (whirlpool) or let them steep (stir well but gently every 3-5 minutes) for 20-30 minutes. Then chill down to ferm temps.

You'll get very little bittering at that low temp, and retain tons of flavor and aroma.

Yes, agreed. Bad recipe template on my part, these guys were in the hops stand at about 150°

 

[IslandLizard]

Yes, agreed. Bad recipe template on my part, these guys were in the hops stand at about 150°

Ah, all good on that front. Phew!

I agree, oxygen seems to be the culprit of the dark color and muted flavors and aromas.

 

[wepeeler]

Color aside, these beautiful hop additions belong in the whirlpool (or hop stand) after the boil, when you've chilled the wort down to 140-150F. Recirculate (whirlpool) or let them steep (stir well but gently every 3-5 minutes) for 20-30 minutes. Then chill down to ferm temps.

You'll get very little bittering at that low temp, and retain tons of flavor and aroma.

That seems to be the ongoing trend, but after many batches and experimentation, a little hops in the boil round out the flavor, at least for me. All flameout tends to be bitter up front, then something lacking in the middle, before the nice finish. I like a 20/10/5 min addition. Or even 10/5. I'm talking less than an ounce of flavor hops total in the boil. For my 5 gallon batches, I've done .5oz of warrior or columbus at 60, then about an ounce spread over the 3 additional additions.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]after many batches and experimentation, a little hops in the boil round out the flavor, at least for me. All flameout tends to be bitter up front, then something lacking in the middle, before the nice finish.[...]

I totally agree with that - I have noticed some commercial neipas that have a plainly evident mid-pallet "character deficit". Very unsatisfying given the style.
So I always have 5' additions to make sure that doesn't happen. Between those and the FO additions plus the sub-170°F WP additions (plus the bio and dry additions) there's a metric crap ton of juice from end to end

Cheers!

 

[GPP33]

I know mongoose does this as well . Only thing I wonder about this is how much star san/ water is left in the bottom of the keg once you start the beer transfer

Next time you clean a keg put a cup of water in and push it out with CO2, let the CO2 run for about 10 seconds after the water is out. If your kegs are anything like mine it'll literally be a drop that's left. If I flip the keg over it's not even enough to drip out.

 

[day_trippr]

^I can vouch for that^ But it does require a full-length dip tube properly located in its well.
Also, if one is super OC about it, after blowing out a keg if you let sit for five minutes so everything drips down the side walls, one last quickie blow-out will get that, too. There'll literally be a few drops left...

Cheers!

 

[couchsending]

Fill keg full of Star San or Idophor
Push 1 pint out
Disconnect liquid out
Purge headspace with 30 psi 11 times
Push rest of Star San out
Fill keg with 20ish psi
Let sit for 10 minutes
Attach liquid out to flush remaining liquid
Fill again with X PSI and use this to purge your liquid transfer line

If you can’t cold crash while maintaining head pressure then don’t do it with hoppy beers. If you’re lucky and can transfer from fermenter to keg without clogging a poppet then cold crash in the keg while maintaining a certain PSI. 35 for 5ish days. I personally wouldn’t serve from that keg. If you’re anal and attentive I’d liquid purge another keg and transfer to that. If you’re lazy and careless don’t bother.

Same process as above to liquid purge Fill with 10-15 PSI after purging
Attach liquid and gas jumper lines to purged keg
Purge those lines before attaching to conditioning keg
If your beer is carbonated in the primary keg set receiving keg to same PSI otherwise you’ll have a foamy mess
Position full keg above the receiving keg
Pull PRV on the receiving keg once
Transfer will take no time

If you want to make rad, punchy, aromatic hoppy beers whether they be clear or hazy you need to be so anal about eliminating O2 pickup. Hop aroma is the first thing to go when hoppy beers are exposed to any amount of oxygen after dry hops have been added. It literally takes one line that’s not purged to ruin the aroma.

Other tips to prevent oxidation

Use Brewtan B
Use Whirlfloc
Keep as much break material out of the fermenter as possible
Avoid Oats

And yes you can make permanently hazy beers while doing those steps.

 

[don_bran321]

Did any oxygen get in there?
Literally all it takes is about 6 molecules and it goes bad.
Could also be a lot of yeast in the bottom of the keg.
I'm guessing oxygen badness though. Seems too dark for that grist even with yeast.
I had a keg go bad because the seal want right and it has sucked in a miniscule amount of air . Turned from golden joy to puddle water in a week.

I second the yeast at the bottom of the keg. I've had the clearest of beer beautiful color and clarity. Move the keg around a but too much and that's exactly what it looks like. Id give it some time to rest

 

[divrack]

Fill keg full of Star San or Idophor
Push 1 pint out
Disconnect liquid out
Purge headspace with 30 psi 11 times
Push rest of Star San out
Fill keg with 20ish psi
Let sit for 10 minutes
Attach liquid out to flush remaining liquid
Fill again with X PSI and use this to purge your liquid transfer line

If you can’t cold crash while maintaining head pressure then don’t do it with hoppy beers. If you’re lucky and can transfer from fermenter to keg without clogging a poppet then cold crash in the keg while maintaining a certain PSI. 35 for 5ish days. I personally wouldn’t serve from that keg. If you’re anal and attentive I’d liquid purge another keg and transfer to that. If you’re lazy and careless don’t bother.

Same process as above to liquid purge Fill with 10-15 PSI after purging
Attach liquid and gas jumper lines to purged keg
Purge those lines before attaching to conditioning keg
If your beer is carbonated in the primary keg set receiving keg to same PSI otherwise you’ll have a foamy mess
Position full keg above the receiving keg
Pull PRV on the receiving keg once
Transfer will take no time

If you want to make rad, punchy, aromatic hoppy beers whether they be clear or hazy you need to be so anal about eliminating O2 pickup. Hop aroma is the first thing to go when hoppy beers are exposed to any amount of oxygen after dry hops have been added. It literally takes one line that’s not purged to ruin the aroma.

Other tips to prevent oxidation

Use Brewtan B
Use Whirlfloc
Keep as much break material out of the fermenter as possible
Avoid Oats

And yes you can make permanently hazy beers while doing those steps.

I'd have been the first to piss all over this post once upon a time but actually is pretty much true. Possibly slightly over the top in purging headspace ten times, but I really thought that the best breweries in the country were using some kind of special magic hop and crazy voodoo to get hot beer like you know what I'm talking about and it was beyond the means of us mortals, and then realised that you have to be totally manic about air.. I've even dialled down the hop rates hugely and it's still infinitely more hoppy than id ever managed to get before.