Need some perspective on elements and wattage

[BlkWater_brewer]

I see many posts here and the common thread in them is the need for 5500 watt elements. I don't care if someone wants one, but where does actual need come in? The 55 gal Boilermaker kettle I use comes with 2 5500 watt elements and does a very good job at it. Now I don't claim to be an electrical engineer, but I see no practical requirement for 5500 watt elements under 20 gallons, besides the I want one reason. That goes double for RIMS units as well. My point is from a purely functional standpoint, where does actual need come into the picture? And how much of this issue is purely "wattage envy"? To save anyone the trouble, yes I know I am an opinionated PIA, I just question everything. Don't even get me going on using romex/ THHN wire in a control panel.......

 

[orangehero]

I think any "wattage envy" is all on you. I want to use the full power of the electrical service I have so I can make temperature changes as quickly as possible. Considering there's little to no price difference in the different elements, why would I not choose to shorten my brewday?

 

[Wynne-R]

There is a minimum wattage. It takes a certain amount of power to maintain a boil.

Real life example, I do a 12 qt batch. It takes about 600 watts to maintain temperature, 800w for a decent boil.

When I used a 1300w induction plate, mash to boil was about 60 minutes. Now I use 1800w, it’s more like 25 minutes. You have to subtract the heat loss.

Most people are in a hurry, so as long as you can regulate it, you can’t have too much heat. Gas it ‘til it boils, then back off.

 

[processhead]

The emphasis on wattage is all about time and flexibility.
As orangehero mentions, the extra wattage can allow you to make temperature changes more quickly than a low wattage element.

If you have the kettle volume and the wattage capacity, you can go big on your boils if you choose, or stay small and still do just fine.

 

[dyqik]

A typical 5 gallon batch technique is to aim at boiling off 1 gallon in an hour. Boiling off 1 gallon (8.34 lb) of water per hour requires 2400W of power, just to get the required enthalpy of vaporization. So for a 5.5 gallon into fermenter batch, with a 0.5 gal kettle loss, you need 2400W to boil down from 7 to 6 gallons. To get a similar percentage boil off from a 10 gal system, you need 4800W, although I don't think 10 gal brewers do that, instead aiming at closer to 1-1.5 gal/hour.

In addition to this, you need to overcome the heat losses from your kettle by routes other than steam production. Immersed electric elements are more efficient than gas burners, but my nominally 9000 BTU/hr = 2640 W stove burner can only boil off 0.7 gal/hr from my 7 gal initial boil volume.

The 5500 W elements in RIMS tubes are being run at half their design voltage, so that they are producing 1375W. This is to reduce the power density of the element to guard against scorching.

Note also that elements are specified at 240 and 120V, but line voltages may be as low as 220 and 110V. This reduces the power output by 16% from the nominal value.

 

[augiedoggy]

double post

 

[augiedoggy]

3500w immersion heaters can actually boil 11 gallons or less without problems I prefer 4500w ULWD... even less chance of scorching and frees up the 1000w worth of juice so I can run my rims and hlt OR BK at the same time on a 30a circuit.

I never have had to set my 4500w element over 75% in manual PWM even when boiling 12.5 gallons.... and that is with a VERY vigorous boil. But I use a taller than wider kettle so its more efficient.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

I think any "wattage envy" is all on you. I want to use the full power of the electrical service I have so I can make temperature changes as quickly as possible. Considering there's little to no price difference in the different elements, why would I not choose to shorten my brewday?

Just what I figured, just because. But you also don't mention your brewing size. The reason I brought this up in the first place is in reality the cost of the element has little to do with it. It is the cost of the power that concerns me. In transitioning to a 3bbl setup the cost of power actually becomes a substantial fixed cost. This is what sparked my interest. I still think the issue is more want than need.

 

[orangehero]

Yeah I guess any choice to optimize efficiency can be called more of a want than a need for the homebrewer. Indeed homebrewing is a want and not a need.

The cost of power is less if anything since you're losing less heat to the environment by heating more quickly. It takes the same amount of power to raise the wort temperature.

 

[augiedoggy]

Just what I figured, just because. But you also don't mention your brewing size. The reason I brought this up in the first place is in reality the cost of the element has little to do with it. It is the cost of the power that concerns me. In transitioning to a 3bbl setup the cost of power actually becomes a substantial fixed cost. This is what sparked my interest. I still think the issue is more want than need.

I have a different take on it,
Would you cook a can of soup on a propane jet burner? the higher the wattage the higher the watt density and more likely you are going to have scorching with higher gravity liquids.
4500w brings 16 gallons of 55 degree water to strike temps in about 40 minutes.. 5500w watts isnt much more wattage but why not use an element that matches the purpose /size and would be less likely to cause problems twith higher gravity wort. some people have had this issue and installed an additional ssvr to bring the overall power output down on the element... more work not needed with a better sized element...since the 4500w and 5500w elements are the same physical size the 4500w elements have a safer lower watt density.

 

[jeffmeh]

The most substantial fixed costs are in stepping up the rating of the wiring and components. The energy consumption (power/time) should not amount to much of a difference, as power and time are inversely proportional. That said, if you are using more watts than necessary to get an adequate boil, you are wasting some energy. Depending upon what value one assigns to his time determines how quickly the initial fixed costs of a more powerful element are amortized.

 

[Bobby_M]

Obviously you'll need enough power to maintain a boil but every watt over that minimum is a matter of saving time. When it comes to picking a propane burner, you could make the same argument about 60kBTU vs 120 vs 200. They will all boil wort but how much time do you want to dedicate to an already long brew day?

Aside from the typical 60 minute sacc rest and 60 minute boil length, everything else is waiting for the liquids to heat up before we can do the next thing. For some perspective, even if you limit for your first volume to only strike water of say 5 gallons and assuming a tap water temp of 60F and a target of 175F:

1500w=1hr
2000w=45m
3500w=25m
4500w=19m
5500w=16m

Now, since you can refill and heat sparge while you wait for the mash, we'll skip that heating time.

Once it's time to start heating the runoff to boil from 165F to 212F, assuming 7 gallons:

1500w=34m
2000w=25m
3500w=15m
4500w=11m
5500w=9m


So, you can see how 5500w is 25 minutes of heating vs 40 minutes for 3500 watts. Of course, as you double or quadruple batch size, those times scale pretty closely and of course the minimum needed to boil goes up.

There is also a realistic maximum wattage per gallon you'd want to use but for a system with temp control, there's no danger. The most extreme case I've witnessed was a batch I brewed two weeks ago. 11,000w in a 20 gallon pot. It took 10 gallons of strike water from 55F to 175F in 17 minutes.


It's only time, but at what cost? No one else can answer that for each person. As you plan your system, the first question to ask is if you already have an available circuit to plug into that is also large enough for maintaining a rolling boil. Everyone has a different interpretation of a good enough boil. For me, it's 7 gallons on 5500w running at 65% duty (~3500w). I've tried running it at 35% so if 2000w would do it and I say no way. I do think a pair of 1500w elements would do it but it will only be a moderate boil.

Once you concede that you have to run a new circuit, there's no reason not to go 5500w because the cost differences between 12/3 and 10/3 cable is negligible.

 

[dyqik]

Just what I figured, just because. But you also don't mention your brewing size. The reason I brought this up in the first place is in reality the cost of the element has little to do with it. It is the cost of the power that concerns me. In transitioning to a 3bbl setup the cost of power actually becomes a substantial fixed cost. This is what sparked my interest. I still think the issue is more want than need.

After capital costs, it's cheaper to change temperature faster, with a more powerful element, than it is to go slower.

The amount of heat energy required to change the temperature of the water/wort is fixed by the volume and the temperature change, and doesn't depend on time taken to change temperatures. However, the total heat energy lost from the kettle during the heating phase is at least proportional to the temperature difference between the water and surroundings multiplied by the time taken (actually it increases a little bit faster than the temperature difference). The longer you take to change temperature, e.g. from mash out to boil, the more total heat losses you have to overcome, and the more energy you have to use.

You can see this from the extreme case, where you supply only a tiny bit more power than your heat losses in order to heat your wort. If at mash out temps in your kettle, you are losing 100W of heat, and you supply 101W of power to the element, then the heat energy in the wort will only rise by 1 J/second. If you supply 1100W of power, the heat energy in the wort will rise at 1000 J/second, and you'll reach 1000 J more heat energy in the wort 1000 times faster than the first case, losing 99.9 kJ less to kettle heat losses.

Calculating it for the full temperature change is more complex, because heat losses aren't constant, but a function of temperature.

For direct flame heating, it can be much more complex, as the efficiency of transferring heat from the fuel to the wort isn't fixed. For immersed electrical elements though you can pretty much treat them as having a constant efficiency.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

..... For me, it's 7 gallons on 5500w running at 65% duty (~3500w). I've tried running it at 35% so if 2000w would do it and I say no way. I do think a pair of 1500w elements would do it but it will only be a moderate boil.

Once you concede that you have to run a new circuit, there's no reason not to go 5500w because the cost differences between 12/3 and 10/3 cable is negligible.

OK, I see your point on the boil kettle, I don't necessarily agree completly but that's splitting hairs. Like I said I am opinionated so I just need a good reason for what I do. The element specs in a RIMS unit require a whole new set of rules - but that's an argument for another post.

 

[Bobby_M]

OK, I see your point on the boil kettle, I don't necessarily agree completly but that's splitting hairs. Like I said I am opinionated so I just need a good reason for what I do. The element specs in a RIMS unit require a whole new set of rules - but that's an argument for another post.

Which part don't you agree with? That amount of watts required to boil?

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Which part don't you agree with? That amount of watts required to boil?

I said don't entirely agree.

To save a couple of minutes in boil time, does not justify the need for heavy draw heating elements for all. I see many posts from people trying to mickey mouse setups by swapping breakers, find 110 outlets that are different phases for 220v and other generally unsound electrical practices.

Sure if you own and not rent you can get any wiring that you need. This is however unfair for the small batch home brewer who wants something more than his stove or propane on a deck. You do not need a 5500 watt element if you are not wired to make use of it. Will it cut your 17 minute boil in half, so what. You can still upgrade from your stove without needing a 30 or 50 amp breaker. What is needed is a focus on electric brewing for those that don't do big batches and those that don't have a good wiring upgrade option. Electric brewing can be small brewer friendly.

Myself I use a 4500 watt TC mounted element (your enclosures BTW) on my BK and a 2500 watt element in my RIMS (again yours) for 15 gallon batches. The RIMS I had to use a lower wattage element to avoid scorching the wort and element while using a low circulation rate. I find that the RIMS element is enough even for multiple step mashes.

So, Bobby, I am a confirmed BrewHardware.com advocate. I just think that for some bigger is better, doesn't equate to "only bigger works". Some don't have the option and I think this could be a target market. That's all.

Now back to working on my upgrade from 1 4500watt element to 3 9Kw, 3 phase BK and also the HLT. Must have more power, but I am upgrading to 100 gallon vessels.

BTW, I'll have an order on the way soon. -Geoff

 

[madscientist451]

To BlkWater Brewer: I see in your posts that you are upgrading to a 3bbl system and are planning on using 3 phase. I've also noted you are concerned with the operating costs.
I ran a small business for 10+ years using 3 phase power and in addition to the actual power used there was a "demand charge" based on the peak load each billing period. Some utilities charge a minimum fee just to have the 3 phase, even if you don't use any power.
I also had to pay to extend the 3 phase line and another charge to install an additional transformer.
If you haven't contacted your utility provider yet, I would suggest doing that before ordering any 3 phase devices. You can then put together your budget for the project.

 

[JoshuaW]

A LOT of people run 5500w elements in their RIMS tubes, but not all (maybe even very few) run them at full power. Mine is being setup to run at 120v most of the time, turning my LWD element into a super-ULWD element. 1375w will still maintain temperatures and allow for an increase in mashing temps.

 

[Hello]

I went with 5500 watt not "just because", but because of this right here:
1500w=1hr
2000w=45m
3500w=25m
4500w=19m
5500w=16m

I'm saving time. Although "just because" is a very suitable answer to your question, saving time is the real winner here for me.

 

[Gameface]

Yes, I want to save time.

I'd rather my brewery handle like a porsche than a minivan.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes, I want to save time.

I'd rather my brewery handle like a porsche than a minivan.

Yes but like its easy to lose control in a porsche and you would be a lot safer in the minivan if it happened..

Just as its easier to scorch your wort with a rims vs herms its also easier to scorch high gravity beers with 5500w elements vs a 4500w with less watt density...
I have read more than a few threads here where people have done it and thats where I think some of the comments and misconceptions about beer brewed with electric tasting ashy comes form. For many styles and setups the 5500w will work slightly faster and work fine but will also be just like cooking with the burner on higher than it needs to be and because of this there's more risk for scorching just like burning the bottom of the pot.

In all fairness I'm inclined to take Bobbys comment in this thread with a grain of salt since anyone who sold stainless versions of the 5500w and not 4500w elements might look at things a little biased consciously or not... (No offense meant).

for that reason if speed was the main concern, 2 3500w elements or even 2 4500w elements will work even faster and are less likely to impart any scorching than one 5500w element since the total watt density exposed to the wort is still lower.
I think this is the main reasoning behind blichmanns elements as well... also the few nano brewers multi element setups Ive seen tend to favor the 4500w elements over the 5500w could this be one of the reasons?

 

[augiedoggy]

and a 5500w rims tube would need very good flow at all times and extra care to kill the element before the flow stopped to prevent scorching... same idea here... less watt density the safer and more foolproof it is at doing the same job without imparting any burnt flavors...

 

[stevehaun]

I make 30 gallon batches and both my BK and HLT have two 4500 watt elements. I wish I had more wattage but I am not willing to pay for the necessary upgrades. It is adequate.

What is the downside of THHN wire?

 

[schematix]

For me it's a time thing. More wattage = less time. I don't always run everything at 100% power, but when I do I get where I want to go a lot faster.

 

[augiedoggy]

For me it's a time thing. More wattage = less time. I don't always run everything at 100% power, but when I do I get where I want to go a lot faster.

Yes but at what cost? more wattage over more element surface area is totally different than more wattage over the same (watt density). thats my point... the 5500w and 4500w ripples are the same size and have the same surface area so the 5500w has 1000w more heat stuffed into the same surface area which equals a higher watt density than the 4500w element. its literally the same scenerio as some people using 5500w elements at full power in a rims vs the majority using much less...

Even then cooking something as fast as possible isnt always a win win situation... any chef will tell you even that has drawbacks.
with a higher watt density element you are subjecting your wort to a higher more intense surface heat this may be more likely to scorch certain things in your wort depending on the amount of proteins has anyone really done extensive testing to see if off flavors can be a result from the higher temps? we know that the higher the watt density the higher the chances of scorching..
I know that depending on what temp coffee is made has a huge effect on flavor beer isnt really a direct comparison but many here talk about getting a film stuck to their elements could that film still be imparting off flavors in some beers even if it doesnt turn black and appear completely burned?

The likely scenario is the ulwd 5500w elements are completely safe to use as long as one doesnt set the pwm of voltage value too high while boiling but it seems the setpoint people use for their boil varies drastically and I would thing someone with 6 gallons boiling at 80% in manual mode with 5500w would be more likely to reach scorching surface temps than something with less watt density.... and this situation is likely were some of the bad press electric has gotten comes from as well as people using lwd and regular density elements... (Like heating with a torch if you ask me)
again same argument as with rims vs herms I guess... As long is one is aware and knows what to do to avoid issues..

My father has 55 gallon stainless drum/speedqueen washer tub chowder kettle and he uses a modified torch head with propane to heat the chowder..(I thought about using it for beer). It works very fast and well as long as you constantly stir it the entire time but sometimes when people borrow it they forget this rule and burn a lot of it to the bottom of the kettle... He could have used a more gentle heat source but it would take longer to cook it as well so... Same situation I guess... If someone doesnt fully understand it they can more easily be turned off by the results. Just like there are people who cant be trusted with driving a Porsche

for me the 4 minutes longer or so it takes me to brew is worth it for piece of mind ... too many other variables to worry about.

 

[schematix]

Yes but at what cost?

If you're not doing some type of PWM or basic thermostat type control on these elements you are misapplying the technology. That's just like running your propane burner wide open without any flow control valve.

I used Blichmann Boil Coils instead of water heater elements. I figure I saved 4 hours in labor each (2) putting boil coils in (2 small holes) vs putting in all the large holes and fittings, not to mention, wiring, for water heater elements. Boil Coils were probably net $20 more each in raw parts. Also boil coils get larger as the pot size gets larger so the density is similar regardless of the size. As far as electrical components, the cost of a 20A breaker is the same as a 25A breaker is the same as the 30A.

My RIMS tube is the RIMS Rocket, which is 3500W. I think it's a really good size for RIMS. It runs balls out when i'm stepping temps and the PID controller dials in to ~10% when its just holding.

 

[augiedoggy]

If you're not doing some type of PWM or basic thermostat type control on these elements you are misapplying the technology. That's just like running your propane burner wide open without any flow control valve.

I used Blichmann Boil Coils instead of water heater elements. I figure I saved 4 hours in labor each (2) putting boil coils in (2 small holes) vs putting in all the large holes and fittings, not to mention, wiring, for water heater elements. Boil Coils were probably net $20 more each in raw parts. Also boil coils get larger as the pot size gets larger so the density is similar regardless of the size. As far as electrical components, the cost of a 20A breaker is the same as a 25A breaker is the same as the 30A.

My RIMS tube is the RIMS Rocket, which is 3500W. I think it's a really good size for RIMS. It runs balls out when i'm stepping temps and the PID controller dials in to ~10% when its just holding.

Apples to oranges..
your blichmann burners have a lot of element surface area which is good! thats my point!
One of the the differences here is with electric the pid fires the element at 100% until the proper temp is achieved and THEN throttles it back... the watt density at this point makes a huge difference on scorching.

Its just like trying to heat a very small pot of sauce on a giant gas burner at full power... it will already have burned some to the bottom of the pot before the mass even reaches the desired temp because the amount of heat on the bottom of the pot scorches the sauce almost immediately.


When using a giant gas or propane burner most set and restrict the flame to a suitable level from the get go....
If it really wasnt a matter of watt density then we would all be using the largest regular or low watt density elements we could source for everything right?

The real factor here is the intensity per square inch or element that comes in contact with the wort.

a 4500w ripple element is less likely to scorch and lower watt density than the 5500w for the same reasons the longer ripple element are less likely to scorch than the shorter straight elements also advertised as ULWD... the heat per square inch is distributed more evenly and less intense. just like the difference between heating with a torch or a large burner with the same BTU... the torch is more likely to burn than the larger less intense heating of the burner...

 

[TungstenBeer]

The likely scenario is the ulwd 5500w elements are completely safe to use as long as one doesnt set the pwm of voltage value too high while boiling but it seems the setpoint people use for their boil varies drastically and I would thing someone with 6 gallons boiling at 80% in manual mode with 5500w would be more likely to reach scorching surface temps than something with less watt density.... and this situation is likely were some of the bad press electric has gotten comes from as well as people using lwd and regular density elements... (Like heating with a torch if you ask me)
again same argument as with rims vs herms I guess... As long is one is aware and knows what to do to avoid issues..

I think this is the key. Everyone seems to agree. After reading the back-and-forth in this thread, I decided to google "ULWD scorch" and read the first 2 pages of HBT threads about scorching, and every single time the problem was one of the following:

- ULWD elements are not used
- ULWD were thought to be used, but it was really a LWD or higher density element advertised wrongly as ULWD
- ULWD was used, but 2 cans of pumpkin were added to the boil which would obviously cause a scorch

Having said that... obviously you are right, 4500W elements would be less likely to scorch in [insert volume here] of wort compared to 5500W. Hell, you could make the argument that people shouldn't be using 4500W and should be using 3500W instead if they're only doing 5 gallon batches. The reality is that the chance of scorching wort using any proper ULWD element in that range is probably very low.

 

[Bobby_M]

In all fairness I'm inclined to take Bobbys comment in this thread with a grain of salt since anyone who sold stainless versions of the 5500w and not 4500w elements might look at things a little biased consciously or not... (No offense meant).

Slight offense received nonetheless. The 5500 elements I offer were specifically what I wanted to offer and not because I couldn't get 4500s. I chose them because I use them for the reasons I explained and most other people use them as well for whatever reasons they have. Theelectricbrewery.com likely has a major influence as well. As with 99% of the items I sell, the decisions are driven by what I stand behind as a fellow homebrewer and I haven't to this day made product choices based on profit goals and I never will. That's why people buy from me.

for that reason if speed was the main concern, 2 3500w elements or even 2 4500w elements will work even faster and are less likely to impart any scorching than one 5500w element since the total watt density exposed to the wort is still lower.
I think this is the main reasoning behind blichmanns elements as well... also the few nano brewers multi element setups Ive seen tend to favor the 4500w elements over the 5500w could this be one of the reasons?

You could use put a bunch of ULWD 2000w elements in a radial array and wire them in series for insanely low density as well. The OP was more ranting about total wattage used and wondering why people do it. I could easily have my manufacturer make a 3500 watt ripple element the same size as the camco 5500w ripple for even less density, I just don't anticipate selling many.

 

[augiedoggy]

Slight offense received nonetheless. The 5500 elements I offer were specifically what I wanted to offer and not because I couldn't get 4500s. I chose them because I use them for the reasons I explained and most other people use them as well for whatever reasons they have. Theelectricbrewery.com likely has a major influence as well. As with 99% of the items I sell, the decisions are driven by what I stand behind as a fellow homebrewer and I haven't to this day made product choices based on profit goals and I never will. That's why people buy from me.


Fair enough, I apologize if that came out offensive It really was not based on any indication of your character good or bad but rather the circumstances related to the situation. I know that very often (not always of course) when someones livelihood or living depends on a product they make or sell it can change their perspective on things... Its not always a conscious decision when it happens and they mat totally believe it... For what its worth I made that comment based upon the situation just like I would look at a situation with say a chevy salesman telling me there product is better than a Ford... they could be completely correct but its just something I have to take with a grain of salt if it was my only feedback regardless due to the circumstances.

It was not at all based on any past experience with you and I have no reason to doubt you other than the very common general reason I mentioned above. However in the grand scheme of things now that I think about it based on your past posts and interactions I've had with you (I have ordered stuff from you and it was a positive experience.) I realize this is a product you started selling because you saw the void in affordable options and I honestly dont believe you would put something down just because you dont sell it yourself.

And for what its worth I try to put myself in my customers shoes and be honest with them when they ask my opinion also. But even then I'm often expecting criticism and skepticism on their part. (again because I picture myself in their shoes)

 

[Bobby_M]

Right on. Think of it this way. If I receive a lot of feedback that the 5500w elements I have has been causing scorching, and I verify it didn't happen due to people plugging them directly in to uncontrolled outlets, I'd tend to carry and recommend lower density options as you've described. The profit would be about the same and I move forward offering the newly discovered best option. I rarely commit to mass lots of stock on anything because I'd rather be able to adjust to improved designs as soon as I know they exist and the finances of that decision do not require consideration.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

I make 30 gallon batches and both my BK and HLT have two 4500 watt elements. I wish I had more wattage but I am not willing to pay for the necessary upgrades. It is adequate.

What is the downside of THHN wire?

Well I am being picky here and it's only a pet peeve. The downsize is insulation. The THHN wire is wiring houses not electrical devices, TGGT or high temp wire is meant for the typical control panel. The wire insulation is what really controls what gauge you need. In your typical controller you would need no more than 16 gauge wire for the actual heater circuits as opposed to 10 or12 gauge THHN. Makes for a cleaner and more efficient system. Just a pet peeve from my early engineering days.

 

[homebrewdude76]

I have been brewing fot 10+ years on propane. I am working on going to electric. For me time is more valuable then money. I was thinking two elements per pot... But the more I read on scorching, if we have too much HP in element cant we offset with 100% circulation with a pump? That is my plan in my boil pot. And i will defend Bobby on this, no reason to knock a vendor for what he sells... His choice and peoples choice to buy his product. I am on the list to purchase the largest SS element he is selling.. M