Need help picking steel for a brew rig

[JonW]

Very cool. As with many of the things on your awesome rig - I bet they weren't cheap

$40 total for the set! Bought second hand, but new.

You would be very surprised at the bargain shopping I've done to build my rig. Fortunately, I had a (much simpler) previous rig that I used while I took my time sourcing everything for my current rig.

Get the base stand done first and then you can build it in steps from there. Just keep your eyes open for deals and you can save a lot.

 

[CidahMastah]

$40 total for the set! Bought second hand, but new.

You would be very surprised at the bargain shopping I've done to build my rig. Fortunately, I had a (much simpler) previous rig that I used while I took my time sourcing everything for my current rig.

Get the base stand done first and then you can build it in steps from there. Just keep your eyes open for deals and you can save a lot.

Good advice. Walker, a HBTer that helped me with my ebuild, knows first hand how impatient I am once a start a project haha. I usually ended up paying for it! This time I will try to heed your advice since I know this will be a winter project for me. Since I have a good idea where my ultimate brew stand is headed I want to do it right the first time through.

I would totally give you $40 for those casters! ha That is an insane deal.

 

[jcav]

I was sort of feeling the same way about it, powder coating is just another step i dont want to have to deal with if i can avoid it.

any of you guys care to comment on the minimum thickness for tapping screws? i was looking to put some casters on the bottom and side of my stand (so i can store it vertically.

1/8 inch thick is probably the minimum thickness that could reliably be tapped, so enough screw threads would be present to hold the screw and whatever your attaching safely.

 

[jcav]

I bought them new, but second hand from someone.
They look very similar to these:

I got these threaded stem casters from here:

http://www.castercity.com/eshop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=3APA4X-ML&ReturnTo=../cm3a-stem.htm

Excellent quality and they have a swivel wheel and a brake. A little pricey but very well made.

John

 

[JonW]

I just used a caliper on the leg of mine and the measurements varied from .094 to right about .1". Not as thick as 1/8 inch, but more than 1/16 inch. Some of the variance is probably due to sanding and painting.

 

[CidahMastah]

I just used a caliper on the leg of mine and the measurements varied from .094 to right about .1". Not as thick as 1/8 inch, but more than 1/16 inch. Some of the variance is probably due to sanding and painting.

Awesome ! thanks for digging into the details on that for us all.



Thanks for the caster link as well. Once you start looking at casters the sky is the limit on price, and there are so many varieties you can get lost. Good to know a set that just works

 

[Dog House Brew]

I looked all over when I built my rig. Ended up building a 3 tier and use one pump. I like direct drain to the MLT from the HLT. As far as the frame, I just used 1 1/2" x 1/8" angle. Cheap and way strong enough. I used casters with cast wheels because the heat from my burners. Was concerned about anything that could melt. I painted it with grill paint and have had no issues with rust or not holding up. Bought the brush on and can't imagine spending for powder coat. Good luck on the build.

 

[CidahMastah]

Dog house - I was originally going to do 3 tier, but have been debating 2 or 1 now. The main reason for the change was that I wanted to have teh option to brew in my basement (lower ceiling than garage) and in my garage. I have an electric system with direct fired tun. In my designs the HLT kept ending up at 5'9'' on paper, if I started with the BK at 14'' from the ground. That left me with very little room to fill the HLT and pumping to fill it seemed like a PITA. Anyway, now I am debating between a 2 tier and 1 tier.

Just got my new BK from AHS yesterday and they sent me a crap pot. Had a deformity in the bottom rim, dings, scratches and rust on the side that someone had tried to scuff off with an abrasive pad... Needless to say I am none too pleased. I am returning it for a new one but this just adds another delay. I really need to line the pots up together and see what things look like in reality, and not on paper before I decide to commit to a design.

I have been toying with the idea of using a heavy duty lockout slider too. Basically I would make it so the HLT was framed in directly above the MT on the rack. However the MT would be on a shelf that could be pulled out and locked out for the brew session so I could direct fire it. This would make a bit more of a compact footprint and keep the HLT gravity driven. Only issue I am debating is how much I will have to offset the weight of the extended drawer with a loaded MT on it! Or I could just commit to going eherms and be done with the fire concern. That is sounding more and more ideal.


Just out of curiosity, how much was the angle material cost-wise?

 

[ChuckO]

A few quick comments on structural builds.

Tapped holes generally should have 2 to 2-1/2 threads engagement. This means that a 1/4-20 thread should have 2/20 or .1 inch thick minimum material to avoid thread pull out. 3/8-16 bolts require 2/16 or .125 inch thick minimum material.

Structural angle causes problems cleaning the welds on the inside of the angle. Tubing is easier to clean up.

Material thickness for US sheet plate :
8 ga. = .1644"
10 ga. = .1345"
11 ga. = .1196"
14 ga. = .0747"
16 ga. = .0598"
18 ga. = .0478"
20 ga. = .0359"

This makes 1/4-20 threads the maximum size in 11 ga. material. If you need larger diameter threads, you should drill a hole and weld on a nut, or weld on a plate and drill and tap through it.

Hope this helps with brew stand build.

Note: I haven't yet built a welded brew stand, but I have 30 years experience in manufacturing engineering of mechanical and structural parts.

Chuck

 

[Dog House Brew]

That is a drag on the pot. I'm upgrading my HLT to a 25 gallon stainless pot. My local restaurant supply was the cheapest for me. Anyway, if I had my build to do over I would have built a 2 tier with my MLT higher in the center. I would love to have an all electric rig, especially if I were brewing indoors. I do love my 20 tip jet NG burners though. I can boil 22 gallons in 30-35 min. Never changing a propane tank is great. Everyone has different ideas and needs. That's what makes this place so nice. You can always find an answer here.

 

[JonW]

Tapped holes generally should have 2 to 2-1/2 threads engagement.

That's good info. Just FYI - for the self tapping screws on my build, I'm only attaching light weight things like power outlets, pumps, therminator, etc. The screws ARE NOT used for anything structural or weight bearing (with the small exception of my new tippy dump, but that also has 4 screws per hinge).

 

[CidahMastah]

I think the old, "common sense goes a long way" phrase applies here.

Good info - I really like knowing the standards on these things, even if you have to bend the rules every now and then like with Jon's tippy install

 

[microbusbrewery]

1/8 inch thick is probably the minimum thickness that could reliably be tapped, so enough screw threads would be present to hold the screw and whatever your attaching safely.

Ditto. I'm working on my build right now and I'm using 1.5" 16 gauge. Structurally speaking, 16 gauge is plenty strong but I wouldn't trust it for tapping threads. I ended up welding a nut on if I needed threads for attaching something (I think just the casters if I remember correctly). The only exception is my control panel that sits on top of a bracket, I used self tapping sheet metal screws to secure it, but since it sits on top of my bracket the screws simply hold it in position.

 

[CidahMastah]

I just looked at some 14G 1x1 steel this weekend and an old timer steel tradesman said I was crazy to go any bigger than 1x1 in 14g sizing. He claimed that it wouldn't bend under the pot load I described if I put in gussets.

Anyway, I am thinking about trying to loko at some 2x2 or so 14g instead of the 11g. I am concerned that the stand will be insanely heavy for no reason. Thoughts on this?

 

[JonW]

I think the common usage of 2x2 is to give a better footprint for the kettles, not the strength. If you're using 1x1 and gussets, then you may be able to increase your footprint for the kettles without needing 2x2, but I liked the available footprint with 2x2.

It is not insanely heavy at all. All my wiring is under my stand, so if I want to make additions or changes, I just flip my stand over.

 

[CidahMastah]

I really want to stick with 2x2 for several reasons (one in particular being... I don't want to have to put in gussets). Jon do you think there would be a significant weight savings from 11g down to 14g?

By the way I really like the way you have all your wiring on the bottom like that - was just noticing that today when I was drawing up my plan for the march pump install. Trying to figure out the best way to make pump priming easy.

 

[JonW]

I have no idea on the weight savings. I'm sure there is probably a website somewhere that lists weights for given stock steel tubing.

FYI on the priming - with my pumps located the way they are, I have absolutely no problems priming them. On the rare occassion where it doesn't prime on the first power up, I just cycle it off for 5 seconds and then back on and it goes from there.

 

[CidahMastah]

So of course, after all the good research I picked my brew rig steel... 1.5''x1.5'', unknown gauge... haha I know I know.

So my buddy got a hold of some industrial square tubing (railing) at a job site that was being scrapped. He cut it up on site and hauled it home and now we have free steel for the project!! I am not sure of the gauge yet, but my buddy is welder and he said it was probably around 14g or so, but more than heavy enough for our application.

In other developments, we decided that a tippy dump for the MT is mandatory. Already been drawing up a cradle/basket design that will use pillow block bearings to hold a steel bar that will be welded to the basket that holds the MT.

We are still trying to decide on the final design for the stand (single or two tier). Hopefully this weekend we can make some headway, since now we have some steel to play with! Looks like a brew day with design in mind

Jon - Glad to hear that baout your pump set up. I had heard that the 90 degree bend had caused some issues for some people so I had been debating adding 2.5 or so inches of straight pipe to the inlet and outlet and then 2 45's (or something like that).

Are your pumps the center inlet type? or the side inlet type? can't recall what the other type is. I was thinking of grabbing mine from rebel brewer.

http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/search.php?search_query=march&x=0&y=0

wasn't sure if the march was the way to go, or the chugger.

 

[CidahMastah]

After seeing you new tippy dump... I am thinking... maybe I should skip those bearings and get the hinges. Uses less steel, less hardware than the ball bearing design. Retrofitting it the the handle is a great idea.

 

[JonW]

Great score on the steel!

The handle worked great on the Blichmann kettle and could be done similarly for a keggle (facing opposite direction). One thing you probably can't really tell from my pictures is that the top rim of my kettle actually rests right above the round supports. This helps to give more contact points for weight support. The weight is absolutely no issue either - it is not at all being stressed with a full load of wet grain. Also, I went with the round uprights instead of square tubing because I didn't like the angle of attachment that square tubing would have done on a round kettle.

For my pumps, they are the side (end inlet). If you look close at my pics, you'll see that I use T's on the pump inlet (facing down). This is so a temp probe is inserted from the back side of the T and the kettle tubing is inserted from the front side. With the drop to the pump and the straight hoses, gravity pretty much takes care of the priming. On the rare occassion that I need to prime manually, I just stop the pump for 5 seconds and then restart and it takes right off. Mind you, this is only at the beginning of the brew session, it never loses prime on the HLT or MLT. My BK is a different story though as pumping right from the bottom of a full boil kettle is always going to be problematic. I generally don't lose prime on the BK, but it slows down due to the air injected from the boil activity.

 

[Ztp]

Take this how you will, but I have been building steel buildings for the past 8 years, and have seen wind storms/tornadoes rip buildings apart. The self tapping screws, assuming you mean typical 5/16 head screws, will literally hold up to just about anything you can put it through. Just so long as its not a moving part... Then you might have to worry about them backing out over an extended period of time, or eventually sheering. I'm not saying that you should totally rely upon them, but in a pinch, they will probably hold up. As long as you put enough in there. I'm also not trying to contradict any of the advice given, just throwing this information out there.

 

[CidahMastah]

For my pumps, they are the side (end inlet). If you look close at my pics, you'll see that I use T's on the pump inlet (facing down). This is so a temp probe is inserted from the back side of the T and the kettle tubing is inserted from the front side.

Since my system has the temp probe only in the kettles, I will be omitting the T on the bottom and using 90 degree bends, or maybe 2 45's. But it sounds like you are ok with the 90 bend in your tees with no straight pipe at your inlet or outlet (I am sure two 45s and a small straight pipe costs more than one 90!).

 

[CidahMastah]

Alright is has been a bit, but I have been busy!

Jon was hoping you could help here. Is there an accepted table height that is better for creating a good gravity pull to start the pumps (priming them that is)?

The reason I ask is that we are considering a modular approach to the stands build. Right now the general plan is to build it ~6 feet long and section it off for about 3 ~24' square sized sections with 45 degree steel pieces inside to hold the pots.

i.e. 6' long, 14'' tall and 2 feed wide is what I would like to do, but could go up to 6'x2'x2' if I had to - but it makes the modular put things a bit higher (base of HLT at 4' and top at about 5'4'').

This would make the pots pretty low for easy access, but I wasn't sure if this may cause issue with creating a strong enough gravity feed from the pot.

I want to keep it low because we were talking about making a modular 2'x2' square frame that could be mounted to the top of the frame with tabs (secured with bolts). This would allow us to either leave the HLT on the flat plane, or install the modular piece and raise the HLT (or any other pot) up high enough to do a gravity drain. i.e. we could batch sparge with one pump.


Thoughts? If I am being unclear maybe I can post a ghetto picture

 

[CidahMastah]

Here they are

 

[CidahMastah]

The frist beige horizontal line from the bottom on the first pic of the stand represents the height at 14'' and the second represents the height at 24''. The drawings are in squares that represent 1 square / 1 inch for pretty close scaling, though I actually have 1.5'' steel vs. the 2x2 scaling shown.

Red = welded metal plates that will have bolt on fastening.

While not shown the MT in the center will have a SP10 burner that will be hanging under it.

 

[JonW]

Let's see if I have this straight. You're going to do 3 cubes so it can be similar to a single level system, but then you're going to do an additional riser cube to be able to elevate the HLT?

I really don't know what the minimim amount of drop is to get good priming. At 24 inches on the smaller cubes, you shouldn't have a problem though. That is about the height I use for mine. I think one of the most important things is to keep your lines as vertical as possible so that the air easily moves out of the system. Longer lines that hang and have bends are going to trap air.

Another thought is that I would make the leg extensions a bit longer so you have room to mount the pumps under the bottom bar. Heat is a huge issue for the pumps on a gas system. If you mount your pumps under the bottom rung, they will be furthest from the burners and have no problems with the heat. Better yet is to put a shelf on the bottom rung to protect the pumps from heat and liquid.

 

[CidahMastah]

Let's see if I have this straight. You're going to do 3 cubes so it can be similar to a single level system, but then you're going to do an additional riser cube to be able to elevate the HLT?

No I should have been more clear. Going to do a single tier (1 big rectangle box), with one additional riser cube that can be bolted on any position (1st 2nd or 3rd) on the single tier. i.e. The first drawing as shown will not have a bar in the middle. The top will either be at 14 inches or 24 inches (not a bar at both as presently shown). If that still isn't clear let me know

I really don't know what the minimim amount of drop is to get good priming. At 24 inches on the smaller cubes, you shouldn't have a problem though. That is about the height I use for mine. I think one of the most important things is to keep your lines as vertical as possible so that the air easily moves out of the system. Longer lines that hang and have bends are going to trap air.

I plan on making a pump "box" that will mount to a slide rail (or just manually be movable). the box will shield the pump from liquids and the slide will allow it to slide to each position so it can be hooked up with camlocks directly under each pot (similar to the way yours is). Right now I have the one pump, if it stops making sense (time/$$ wise) to be creative I might just buy another pump.

Another thought is that I would make the leg extensions a bit longer so you have room to mount the pumps under the bottom bar. Heat is a huge issue for the pumps on a gas system. If you mount your pumps under the bottom rung, they will be furthest from the burners and have no problems with the heat. Better yet is to put a shelf on the bottom rung to protect the pumps from heat and liquid.

That is a great suggestion. There is no reason not to mount the pump (or rail slide) under the bottom and having the shelf would be great added storage.

I have two electric pots (HLT and BK), but the MT is direct fire for now. I like it that way in case I have an issue with an electric pot in the throws of a brew. I can always throw the boiling wort back into the MT and direct fire to finish the boil.

 

[CidahMastah]

So this is what it may look like at the end of the day. The bottom horizontal rail would be as low as it could be while providing clearance for the pump body under it, and plumbing.

 

[CidahMastah]

Finally got sick of waiting for my buddy and started cutting with the hope that we can get the welding done over the thanksgiving break. Had to stop with my cutoff wheel ground down too small. More to come (I hope this weekend)

You will see the rails where they were attached for the hand railing that we got the free steel from. I did a preliminary clean up to get the bulk of the metal off and will have to make some adjustment cuts. RIght now my brackets for the pots are 16'' pieces. I think I will be going with 15'' instead because I have to trim down the frame a bit so it fits overall dimensions of 6x 25.25'' (right now it is 6'x26'').

 

[Rondacker]

Looking good!