Need Help, Beer Overly Sweet

[mustardtiger]

Hey guys, been a reader for a while now, but this is my first post.

I have been trying out a recipe with the results ending in a sweet beer too many times. I originally thought this was due to fermentation temps being too high. So I invested in equipment to control that. The beer still turned out sweet. Next, I thought this was possibly due to my mash temps being too high and extracting non-fermentable sugars. So I lowered the mash temp to 149*F. Still too sweet. Then I started using a yeast starter, thinking it was the yeast just not finishing the job. After all this trial and error I feel as though the answer may be as simple as my grain bill.

2 Gallon Batch

Grain Bill:
(80.6%)3.5 LB 2-Row
(5.0%)3.5 oz Flaked Oat
(5.8%)4.0 oz Flaked Rye
(4.3%)3.0 oz Flaked Wheat
(4.3%)3.0 oz Flaked Barley
------
4.34LB


Yeast Starter: (1 Liter)
OG- 1.042
Wyeast 1056


Total Hop Amount = 2.75 oz (IBU~62)
FG- (Latest Batch) = 1.015
OG- (Latest Batch) ~1.056

Any help is very much appreciated at this point. In hindsight, I probably should have started with an already established recipe and tweaked it. You live and you learn.

 

[billl]

There is nothing particularly sweet in your grain bill, but that is a lot of "flaked" ingredients. They are all going to lend a fairly full mouthfeel

What is your hop schedule? You may not be getting the utilization you think. I know I have to way overshoot calculated IBU to make it taste like commercial versions.

What is your water like? You may want to tweak that to bring the bitterness forward.

 

[mustardtiger]

I did read up on the flaked ingredients after the latest batch and planned on dropping a couple. Seeming as they all tend to do the same thing in terms of mouthfeel.

Hop schedule:

0.25 oz Nugget AA 13.3% @ 60 min
0.25 oz Citra AA 14.4% @ 15 min
0.25 oz Amarillo AA 7% @ 5 min
0.75 oz Amarillo AA 7% @ Flameout
0.75 oz Columbus AA 15.6% @ Flameout
0.50 oz Wai-iti AA 2.5% @ Flameout (Wanted to use up what I had)

Flameout is a 20 min hopstand and then cool.

I have slightly hard water in my area so I have been using bottled spring water until I feel I can start focusing on my water chemistry. Really just want to get something drinkable before I get more into the fine details.

 

[meatcleaver]

that fg of 1.015 seems awfully high to me for an og of 1.056 & a Chico strain.
& I agree that you could cut back the flaked stuff.
I would probably do something super simple like 95% 2-row, 5% flaked wheat.
shoot for an OG around 1.050 & a FG around 1.010. bitter to 45 or so IBU & see what you think. mashing relatively low (148-150) should get you close.

 

[mabrungard]

This may be a case where your beer's finish is too wet and full. You might try adding a teeny bit of gypsum to a glass of the beer and taste if it improves your perception of the beer. If so, plan on adding an appropriate dose to your future batches.

 

[TheMadKing]

That's a lot of unmalted grain which requires a great deal more enzymatic activity to produce fermentable sugars. I would mash that at about 150F for 90 minutes just to make sure all of your flaked ingredients are fully broken down.

 

[billl]

When I plug that in to a calculator, I only get 53 IBU. If you cut down on the flaked grains, mash in the 150 or lower range, and up that IBU a bit more, I think you'll get more of the IPA balance you are looking for.

 

[ajdelange]

That's a lot of unmalted grain which requires a great deal more enzymatic activity to produce fermentable sugars. I would mash that at about 150F for 90 minutes just to make sure all of your flaked ingredients are fully broken down.

He got 73% ADF.

 

[Aristotelian]

I agree, the unmalted grains are probably part of the issue. Try 95% 2-row and 5% one of your flaked grains. You should get a more fermentable wort.

I think you also want to up your IBU to offset any malt/sweetness. You have a good overall amount of hops, but after the last 15 minutes they are going to add more subtle flavors and aroma rather than bitterness. Try 3/4 oz at 60 minutes while reducing some of your flameout additions.

 

[TheMadKing]

He got 73% ADF.

While that's not terrible, I regularly get 75-80% ADF with 1056 and US-05, so a few extra % of attenuation would likely reduce the sweetness. I personally like a dry IPA so I go for 80%+ADF and have never noticed an undesirable sweetness.

I still think decreasing the flaked grist % and a longer mash would help. It certainly won't hurt.

 

[sendai]

With that yeast and that mash temperature you should be getting 80-85% apparent attenuation instead of the 73% you are actually seeing. That would leave you with an FG of 1.008 - 1.011, which would be a lot less sweet.

Have you verified that your mash thermometer is reading correctly? Did you measure the FG with a hydrometer (and not a refractometer)?

I'm surprised people are blaming the sweetness on the use of adjuncts. I always though they resulted in a more fermentable wort than using all malt would. Am I mistaken?

 

[TheMadKing]

With that yeast and that mash temperature you should be getting 80-85% apparent attenuation instead of the 73% you are actually seeing. That would leave you with an FG of 1.008 - 1.011, which would be a lot less sweet.

Have you verified that your mash thermometer is reading correctly? Did you measure the FG with a hydrometer (and not a refractometer)?

I'm surprised people are blaming the sweetness on the use of adjuncts. I always though they resulted in a more fermentable wort than using all malt would. Am I mistaken?

The unmalted grain means that the enzymes from the 2-row effectively have to pull double duty (not actually double) to convert the starches in the flaked adjuncts, so there is a higher probability that more complex starches survive the mash and end up in the wort, making the wort less fermentable.

Adjuncts such as corn, rice, cane sugar, and others containing simple sugars do make a more fermentable mash, but 6-row malt is commonly used with these adjuncts to boost the amylase content of the mash to compensate for the additional unmalted grist.

 

[Kent88]

Have you tried doing a forced ferment test to see if the gravity should be getting any lower?

Maybe an iodine test during/after the mash to see if you're getting sufficient starch conversion?

Maybe try substituting a pound of 2-row with 6-row would help?

It might just be perception, too.

 

[ajdelange]

While that's not terrible, I regularly get 75-80% ADF with 1056

With that yeast and that mash temperature you should be getting 80-85% apparent attenuation instead of the 73% you are actually seeing.

Wyeast says 73 - 77% for this strain. How do you guys get so much more?

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Does the beer clear if you leave it in the fridge for a week? I would think that could be a simple test for starches.

 

[ajdelange]

Wyeast also says this is a moderate flocculator which requires filtration for bright beer so I think he can expect haze. And he is getting the specified ADF (lower end of the range granted) so I doubt that he'll find unconverted starch but he could try a drop of tincture of iodine just to be sure.

 

[TheMadKing]

Wyeast says 73 - 77% for this strain. How do you guys get so much more?

I don't know what, specifically, I'm doing to be honest, but I've always found the manufacturers ranges of attenuation to be less than reliable for most strains.

I think there are too many variables to reliably state a hard range for a given yeast and I tend to think of those as an average range IF you are following their instructions exactly.

Instead of pitching a single smack pack, I tend to err on the side of overpitching. I frequently use second or third generation yeast. I aerate well. I ramp my temperature as fermentation slows. I mash at 147-149F on my IPA's. I think it's probably a combination of all of these factors. If I had to choose 1, I would go with pitch rate as the biggest factor in attenuation, but that is based solely on intuition and the fact that the "forced fermentation test" exists.

 

[sendai]

Wyeast says 73 - 77% for this strain. How do you guys get so much more?

I thought Wyeast 1056 / WL 001 / US-05 had a reputation for great attenuation.

I've gotten 80% on extract brews, and my latest beer (all malt) was around 85% (mash temp 149*). I don't do anything special. A quick google search confirms that many people get 80%+ attenuation with 1056.

 

[mustardtiger]

Thank you for all the input, really glad i decided to post.

I will be getting some iodine to test for conversion, and next batch ill do a 95/5 grain bill with longer mash just to see the difference. Also, i originally was using a hydrometer which was using a good portion of wort because I'm doing 2-gallon batches until i get something drinkable, so i decided to get a refractometer which is what I used for these readings. I believe it is accurate as I've tested with water and got 0. The thermometer I will have to check.

I am also curious as to how you guys are getting a higher ADF?

I want to add a few things that could be factors?
-The beer is not just sweet to the taste, it is very sweet when just smelling. So I believe themadking is onto something when saying the more complex starches are ending up in the wort.

-I have to ferment in two 1-gallon carboys because of my current set up of a mini fridge and fermwarps to keep temps. Is it possible i could be underpitching even when using a starter and eyeballing the amount in each carboy?

Also my target FG was 1.013(brewers friend). And even if it got down to 1.010, would it really be that much less sweet?

 

[sendai]

i decided to get a refractometer which is what I used for these readings.

What was the FG reading in degrees Brix?

Apologies if you are already aware of this: Using a refractometer is fine, but once fermentation has started you can't just do a simple multiplication to get the specific gravity reading. Instead, you need to use a calculator that takes into account the presence of alcohol. I recommend this one:

http://seanterrill.com/2012/01/06/refractometer-calculator/

Also my target FG was 1.013(brewers friend). And even if it got down to 1.010, would it really be that much less sweet?

Everyone's perception is different, but to me 1.056/1.010 would be much less sweet than 1.056/1.015. (The former would have at least 20% less residual sugars.)

 

[ajdelange]

You cannot trust refractometers until they have been calibrated against the type of beer you are brewing with a more reliable instrument. Much of the time they give a pretty good reading but then you get some that are way out of whack. The necessity to calibrate is especially great after fermentation has started. So check your FG with a hydrometer. I am not saying this is the cause of the discrepancy but it could be.