my pilsners are too "flowery"

[tedmid]

I have attempted to make a german styler pilsner on two different occasions with two different recipes and both have come out with a very similar flavor/aftertaste that i am not fond of. at all.

I can only describe the taste as floral/flowery, and it is more in the aftertaste than the initial aroma. I was shooting for a pretty hoppy beer but am not sure where i am falling short. The first beer i thought perhaps the yeast was unhappy, so for the second recipe i built up a big starter, oxygenated, and cooled to final ferm temp before pitching, but same flavor prevails. Possibly just my hop choice?

Recipes are similar, both use ~9lb pils base with couple other small amounts of grain for flavor, but I noticed in both cases i used some combination of Spalt, Saaz, and Hallertau. Is one of those responsible for this flavor? Any other suggestions? Oh, used wyeast 2007 in one, 2272 in another.

Thanks, i hate waiting for lagers just to be disappointed!
-ted

 

[Bobby_M]

My experience with Saaz says it's a floral hop. The other factor can be elevated esters. I had the same problem with my last Pils because I fermented in the mid 50's to compensate for only a 2 liter starter.

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

what was your hop amounts & schedule? What grains other than pils did you use?

I attempted to make a hoppy lager with large amounts of late addition Hallertau and it has a very grassy floral aftertaste. Not pleasant. After 6 months I am still waiting for it to drop out and taste good...

 

[tedmid]

Latest pilsner had .5lb vienna and .5lb pale wheat malt, which i cant imagine caused this sort of flavor.

The hop additions were:
1oz Spalt 5% @ 60min
1oz Saaz 4% @ 40min
1oz Hallertau 3.8% @ 20min

I wouldnt say its grassy, per se, but definitely perfumey, floral, and the mouthfeel is a bit creamier than i hoped for, if that may indicate anything.

I tried dry-hopping in the keg with some centennial (what i happen to have on hand) just to try and mask it, but it really shows up more in the aftertaste than the aroma.

Thanks again,
-ted

 

[tonton]

MHO is that it is coming from the 1 oz of Hallertau at 20min. You could do Saaz again at 20, then .5 oz at 10 min of Hallertau for the aroma. Saaz will be better suited for flavors in Plisner.

 

[svraines]

It is probably some combination of your hops, but I have made very crisp pilsners with hallertau. Don't like spalt as much and I like saaz, but not in German pilsners, as I find it to be a milder hop than hallertau.

My other thought is, what is your water like? When I have had success with pilsners I have started with RO water and used small amounts Gypsum and Calcium chloride to accentuate the bitterness. When I used harder water the hoppy crispness wasn't there. It was a softer, more floral hoppiness from same hop schedule.

 

[Got Trub?]

Hops or fermentation temp, or both. What did you ferment at?

GT

 

[tedmid]

-Fermented at 52, lagered at 40, wyeast lists 48-56 on their specs for 2007.
-Live in Cary, NC who classifies the water as "moderately soft" w/36.6 ppm CaCo3.

Looks like there is a mild consensus about the hops, so i will try to change that variable first in my next batch. In trying to keep with the guidelines, what noble hops would be considered 'safest' in my efforts to avoid the current flavor dilemma?

Thanks all,
-ted

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

-Fermented at 52, lagered at 40, wyeast lists 48-56 on their specs for 2007.
-Live in Cary, NC who classifies the water as "moderately soft" w/36.6 ppm CaCo3.

Looks like there is a mild consensus about the hops, so i will try to change that variable first in my next batch. In trying to keep with the guidelines, what noble hops would be considered 'safest' in my efforts to avoid the current flavor dilemma?

Thanks all,
-ted

I think that the amount of late hop additions is what is causing this in your beer, and in the one that I brewed. I did a 20 minute addition and a 5 min addition both of 1oz hallertau.

I believe that for this style it is better to focus on the bitterness, with a very slight hop flavor and aroma, maybe .25-.5 oz in a late addition, if even that. If you think about the commercial examples of this style, they are dry crisp and bitter. There is not an overwhelming hop flavor or aroma coming through.

 

[tedmid]

Thanks for the input everyone, I am definitely looking forward to putting out a good pilsner. I think i will drop the spalt and avoid the late hop additions. Let you know in 2 months! That sounds so far away...

Time to start a new thread on "what to do with 5 gallons of beer you don't really like"!
-ted

 

[944play]

I dig a flowery pils, but if I didn't, I'd probably bitter with Northern Brewer and finish with just a pinch of Hallertau, Tett, or Liberty.

Mmm, floral beer. I've gotta dry-hop the snot outta my Vienna SMaSH....

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

Thanks for the input everyone, I am definitely looking forward to putting out a good pilsner. I think i will drop the spalt and avoid the late hop additions. Let you know in 2 months! That sounds so far away...

Time to start a new thread on "what to do with 5 gallons of beer you don't really like"!
-ted

choke it down!!! bad beer is better is better than no beer.

 

[pjj2ba]

I'll second the vote for too much late hop additions, particularly if shooting for a German style pilsner I like to go with no more that 1/2 oz at 20 min. Occasionally I'll make an aroma addition at 5 min., but never more than 1/4 oz