My First Lager

[halvey]

Alright so I'm completely new to this. I brewed an amber kit last week for my first batch and I racked it today to keep it fermenting for a few more days.

I've been reading everything I can get my hands on and ended up with a copy of Papazian's Complete Joys of Homebrewing. Having a refrigerator handy I thought "hey! why not try a lager?"

So I brewed the recipe in the book for "Good Night In Mexico"

I thought everything went really well until I checked the OG and was .020 below where it should have been 1.050. Here is where I think I went wrong.

The recipe called for rice extract. I couldn't find it and used rice flakes in the same quantity. 1 lb. when it called for a lb of extract.

Anyone have any input for me??

 

[Inthekeg]

Halvey.

First, I recommend you invest in a good recipe program such as Pro Mash or Beer Smith. They aren't that expensive and are invaluable tools.

Second, you didn't mention you batch size (i.e. 5.5 gallons, 10 gallons, etc), but if you were brewing a 5 gallong batch, your substituion cost you around .006 in your Original Gravity. I am working off the assumption the recipe called for Rice Syrup.

Another consideration which you didn't clarify was the temp of the wort when you checked it. If you checked it while it was still warm, you would need correct for this. Keep in mind you Hydrometer is calibrated for 60 deg. F

 

[phissionkorps]

Mashing 1lb of rice flakes yeilds about the same gravity points (0.006) as a lb of rice syrup according to tastybrew, so I don't think that's your only problem.

 

[halvey]

Ahhhh. The temperature. It was definitely hotter than 60. Boy don't I feel stupid.

Will I be risking too much contamination if I pop the cork off and take another sample?

 

[Inthekeg]

I would let it ride and not bother it. Do you know the aprox. temp when you took your reading? It will be easy enough to figure out where you probably were, after correcting for temp.

 

[Inthekeg]

Phisson, I use Beer Smith, which shows a swing of around .005-.006 between a pound of Rice flakes and a pound of Rice Extract Syrup in a 5 gal. batch. Now you got me second guessing my program.

 

[phissionkorps]

I'd take beersmith's values over tastybrew's. I just use tastybrew because it's free.

 

[Inthekeg]

Roger that! I do believe the difference shown in Beersmith to be correct. It's late and I thought I might be entering something incorrectly.

 

[boo boo]

Well for one thing flaked rice needs to be mashed, so if you were doing an extract recipie you lost all that potential sugar from the rice. It would also need the enzymes from malted barley to mash with so the starch could convert to sugar.

 

[budbo]

Well for one thing flaked rice needs to be mashed, so if you were doing an extract recipie you lost all that potential sugar from the rice. It would also need the enzymes from malted barley to mash with so the starch could convert to sugar.

That's what I was thinking. If he is brand new to brewing my first thought is that it was an extract batch and steeping flaked rice adds almost nothing to the OG.

If you are brand new to this and did all grain, it is possible you just had low efficiency. For new all grain brewers you should always add a bit to the grain bill until you find your average efficiency (It is easier to water it down if you get too high an OG, than to add to it after the boil)

 

[halvey]

Thanks everyone. I'm worried that I screwed this up. I didn't mash the rice. At least I don't think I did. I added the rice in a bag durring the boil. It's in the fridge around 45 degrees and hasn't started any fermentation.

Any input?

 

[halvey]

Close to 48 hours later there is still absolutly no sign of fermentation. It's being kept arounf 45 degrees. Is this too cold for primary fermentation?? Or am I just impatient??

 

[BlindLemonLars]

What yeast are you using? Most lager yeasts want to ferment in the mid-fifties.

And no, you didn't mash your rice...you cooked it! I predict a lot of starch haze in your lager.

Don't sweat it...just get your beer to the appropriate temperature, and let it ride. You'll still end up with some sort of beer.

 

[halvey]

I'm using White Labs Southern German Lager Yeast.

I'm going to bring the temp up and hopefully it'll get it going-

Thanks for helping me calm my nerves.

 

[halvey]

So I still have absolutely NO activity in the fermenter. I took it out of the refrigerator where I think it was too cold. It's been sitting at 65-70 degrees and there is NOTHING- no activity of any sort not even bubbles in the airlock.

I'm starting to think my mistake with the rice flakes effectively screwed up the brew and there is either not enough food for the yeast or all the starch from boiling the rice flakes is hindering the process.

Should I pitch more yeast? Should I give it a good shake to re-oxygenate the yeast?

What about pitching some ale yeast I have to turn it into an experiment?

Or should I just give up?
Any suggestions will be very appreciated.

 

[phissionkorps]

Shake first.

 

[halvey]

Yeah!! Woohoo!!! It's fermenting!!! My God it worked!!!
Just gave her a little shakey.

Damn I never knew brewing would be so emotional... I may cry when I finally get to drink the stuff!

 

[halvey]

Alright- I know I'm probably stressing unnecessarily BUT the fermentation has been going for close to 20 hours at 75!! degrees. Now that it's sustaining a good ferment should I get it in the fridge to start lowering the temp so that my beer doesn't totally taste terrible?

Thanks for all the help everyone has been giving me... I think I'm going to get a few more ales under my belt(and in my belly) before I try another lager.

 

[phissionkorps]

I'd start lowering it.

 

[Yooper]

Wow- 75 degrees? That's even 10 degrees or so too high for ales. It might take a while now to get down to where you need to be, but you should give it a try. You could expect some off-flavors from fermenting a lager yeast that high, but it might smooth out a little after lagering.

The problem with starting fermentation so warm is that most of the fermentation is probably about finished now. Also, you don't want to lower the temperature too quickly as to shock the yeast and stall fermentation.

The next time you do a lager, make a big starter. Like a one gallon starter. Then, put it in the fridge so that you can decant the spent wort, and pitch the yeast at about 48 degrees into 50 degree wort. Then you won't have to mess around with temperatures and you'll have a cleaner faster ferment. Making lagers isn't difficult, but as you found out, they do have their own challenges. But don't give up on them!

 

[halvey]

I'm going to slowly lower it. I have it around 60 right now and am going to let it rest there for a little while as not to lower it too fast.

Thanks again for the help!

 

[halvey]

So I racked this abomination of a lager last night after 3 weeks @ 45deg. I tasted it and to my surprise was not too bad. LOTS of butterscotch which obviously shouldn't be there but makes the brew very interesting and sweet.

I'm going to crash it @ >40 for a little and try to clear it up.

 

[Yooper]

So I racked this abomination of a lager last night after 3 weeks @ 45deg. I tasted it and to my surprise was not too bad. LOTS of butterscotch which obviously shouldn't be there but makes the brew very interesting and sweet.

I'm going to crash it @ >40 for a little and try to clear it up.

That's backwards. If you have lots of butterscotch, you shouldn't rack or lower the temperature. The yeast will clean it up. If you do a diacetyl rest for about 24-48 hours at 65-68 degrees, it should improve greatly. After that, you should rack and then lower the temperature.

If you're already racked, you could try keeping it at room temperature to see if there is enough yeast to clean up the diacetyl. It might work, but it might take a lot longer.

 

[halvey]

That's backwards. If you have lots of butterscotch, you shouldn't rack or lower the temperature. The yeast will clean it up. If you do a diacetyl rest for about 24-48 hours at 65-68 degrees, it should improve greatly. After that, you should rack and then lower the temperature.

If you're already racked, you could try keeping it at room temperature to see if there is enough yeast to clean up the diacetyl. It might work, but it might take a lot longer.

Thats why I love all you here @ HBT, continually saving me from myself.
I already racked but I'll take it out of the cold for a day or two. Will I see fermentation??

 

[Yooper]

Thats why I love all you here @ HBT, continually saving me from myself.
I already racked but I'll take it out of the cold for a day or two. Will I see fermentation??

No, fermentation should be over. (What is the SG?)

The yeast will ferment until they don't have any thing left to munch on, then the begin to "clean up" things like diacetyl. They actually digest their own waste products as part of this process. Some lagers don't require a diacetyl rest, for several reasons. One, some lager yeast just don't produce much diacetyl, and two, if you pitch cold. In this case, the yeast was pitched warm and produced a lot of diacetyl. It's best to do the diacetyl rest at 65 degrees or so while the lager is still on the yeast cake so that you have more yeast to do the work. Since it's been racked, I'd leave it at room temperature until the diacetyl is gone.

Diacetyl in large amounts tastes like butterscotch, or like butter (ie movie theater popcorn). In small amounts, it'll leave an "oily" feel or slickness on your tongue when you taste it. So, in a few days, taste it. If you still have ANY hint of diacetyl, leave it sit a bit longer. Sometimes I can just feel the slickness on my tongue, and know it's diacetyl. Once the diacetyl is gone, then you can begin the lagering.

When you beging the lagering process, it might be best to lower the temp about 5 degrees per day.

 

[BlindLemonLars]

Diacetyl in large amounts tastes like butterscotch, or like butter (ie movie theater popcorn). In small amounts, it'll leave an "oily" feel or slickness on your tongue when you taste it.

I'm just now enjoying the first pour of my first lager...while there is absolutely no buttery flavor, there is a tiny hint of oiliness on the lips. Other than that, very clean! I'm happy with it.