My beers are turning sour and I don't know what to do

[Hookem86]

I'm not a fan of sours unfortunately, but my buddy tried the Scottish that I made that turned sour and he actually enjoyed it even before bottling. If it's infected as opposed to ph balance of the water, is it undrinkable?

 

[brrman]

infection does not = undrinkable. It won't hurt you, just might not taste the way you want it to. It might taste too bad to drink, but it's not a health hazard

 

[itsnotrequired]

ah, water. new apartment can also mean new water, especially if transitioning between city and well water.

 

[eastoak]

I'm not a fan of sours unfortunately, but my buddy tried the Scottish that I made that turned sour and he actually enjoyed it even before bottling. If it's infected as opposed to ph balance of the water, is it undrinkable?

undrinkable is subjective but it's probably not poison. i don't think you beer is souring because of water ph, you probably have some source of infection somewhere in your brew/fermentation space.

 

[m00ps]

IMO definitely an infection. Theres lots of off flavors from different water chemistry issues. Sour is not one of them. Maybe a bit of astringency or something, but actual sourness is an infection

 

[Hookem86]

undrinkable is subjective but it's probably not poison. i don't think you beer is souring because of water ph, you probably have some source of infection somewhere in your brew/fermentation space.

Any suggestion on how to get it out of the fermentation space?

 

[herc1354]

I doubt it's water PH either, the water companies have to keep the PH in a certain range, if anything U bet your PH is on the high side and since you are brewing a dark beer that will actually help lower the PH.
Due to the hard water in my area the water companies have to heavily treat the water which ends up having a PH of 8.0.

I'm with those who feel it's an infection. If you are fermenting in plastic how old are the fermenters? When you are pitching the yeast is it from a starter or direct from a package? Are you sanitizing the yeast container before pitching?

 

[Hookem86]

I doubt it's water PH either, the water companies have to keep the PH in a certain range, if anything U bet your PH is on the high side and since you are brewing a dark beer that will actually help lower the PH.
Due to the hard water in my area the water companies have to heavily treat the water which ends up having a PH of 8.0.

I'm with those who feel it's an infection. If you are fermenting in plastic how old are the fermenters? When you are pitching the yeast is it from a starter or direct from a package? Are you sanitizing the yeast container before pitching?

I have 5 and 6.5 gallon plastic big mouth bubblers that are around 6 months old or so. I know that's not too old, but I think at this point it would be smart to get new ones and ferment elsewhere. When I do starters, I sanitize everything involved. When not using starters, I always use white labs yeast so I pour directly from the vial.

 

[TheMadKing]

Just to clarify the water pH itself is inconsequential, the dissolved ions in the water are what really affect the pH and if you have a water softener in your new place it is also adding things to your water.

I don't want to start and argument with all you infection proponents, but doesn't an infection seem unlikely if the FG is 1.028 both before and after souring and stable for 2 weeks?

 

[flars]

When you draw your SG sample at two weeks do you spray the airlock, bung and top of the carboy with Starsan solution? When you say your fermentors are in a closet, I think of a clothes closet. Is there anything above your fermentors that gets moved to put dust in the air?

 

[brew_darrymore]

IMO definitely an infection. Theres lots of off flavors from different water chemistry issues. Sour is not one of them. Maybe a bit of astringency or something, but actual sourness is an infection

I respectfully disagree. It happened to me. My water is fairly soft and brewing a stout or porter would bring your mash PH quite low. The result is a sour stout.

I figured that out only after buying a PH meter and started measuring the mash PH. It turned out to be 5.1, so I had to add some chalk to bring the PH up.

Question to the original poster, do you by any chance have a water report for your city?

 

[Hookem86]

When you draw your SG sample at two weeks do you spray the airlock, bung and top of the carboy with Starsan solution? When you say your fermentors are in a closet, I think of a clothes closet. Is there anything above your fermentors that gets moved to put dust in the air?

I typically don't do all of that when returning the airlock, no. I live in a townhome and the closet is under the stairs with tile floors, nothing in there besides brewing equipment. Only opened to check on the beer.

 

[slym2none]

I sanitize before storage, just because (better safe than sorry) and I always have sanitizer left over. I also clean & sanitize again right before use. It's an extra step that takes very little time, and it gives me peace of mind.

 

[GotPushrods]

The fact that it tastes so good at 2 weeks but not at 4 likely rules out water. Even if your kettle pH was a bit low, the yeast do all their competition-killing acid-poo'ing during lag and exponential growth. It should come down from low 5's at knockout to low (ale) to mid (lager) 4s once fermentation is underway. The pH is going to be about as low as it gets a few days into fermentation. You'd taste that at 2 weeks.

If the taste is truly 'sour' and appears between 2 and 4 weeks it is almost certainly infection. I'd throw out and replace all plastic that touches wort after flame-out. And bleach-nuke what you just can't bring yourself to throw out.

Bake your CFC in the oven if you have one. Boil or autoclave stainless fittings that are post-boil as well.

It seems extreme, but think about the time and effort spent between brewday and drinkday. You're on a multi-infection roll here, so easy choice in my book.

 

[Hookem86]

The fact that it tastes so good at 2 weeks but not at 4 likely rules out water. Even if your kettle pH was a bit low, the yeast do all their competition-killing acid-poo'ing during lag and exponential growth. It should come down from low 5's at knockout to low (ale) to mid (lager) 4s once fermentation is underway. The pH is going to be about as low as it gets a few days into fermentation. You'd taste that at 2 weeks.

If the taste is truly 'sour' and appears between 2 and 4 weeks it is almost certainly infection. I'd throw out and replace all plastic that touches wort after flame-out. And bleach-nuke what you just can't bring yourself to throw out.

Bake your CFC in the oven if you have one. Boil or autoclave stainless fittings that are post-boil as well.

It seems extreme, but think about the time and effort spent between brewday and drinkday. You're on a multi-infection roll here, so easy choice in my book.

Thanks, I think I'm just gonna have to suck it up and throw out and replace the plastic stuff.

 

[Jimbodaman]

I used to have this problem, I figured out it was actually oxidation due to removing the bung in the carboy too frequently. Now I just rack 5.25 gallons of chilled wort into my 6.5 gallon glass carboy and pitch either a 1 L starter or 1 packet of dry Nottingham, which I forget about for 30 days then bottle. No secondary, and no problem.

 

[TheMadKing]

The fact that it tastes so good at 2 weeks but not at 4 likely rules out water.

Not necessarily. There's a lot going on chemically speaking in a beer that could keep the sour taste from manifesting until later. CO2 levels changing, solids dropping from suspension, yeast byproducts interacting, etc. I have had a sour note manifest after 3 weeks in the keg before.

I'm not ruling out an infection by any means, I just think water is more likely based on OPs previous experience and the sudden transition to a new water source.

I should have asked this at the beginning, but how sour are we talking here, OP?

"Pucker your mouth lambic sour?" Or "a hint of tartness after a sip?"

 

[Gavin C]

I figured that out only after buying a PH meter and started measuring the mash PH. It turned out to be 5.1, so I had to add some chalk to bring the PH up.

Aside from the source of the flavor. (I don't for a second subscribe to the mash pH theory in this instance being a source of true sour flavor).

Adding chalk is an almost pointless endeavor in homebrewing. It takes days to react at normal atmospheric CO2 pressures. The result is a mash pH that remains unaffected and a beer that will have a pH higher than anticipated as the chalk finally reacts in the fermentor. There is a way to prepare chalk for additions though if you are set on doing that. I learned this the wrong way. Here is a way to add chalk. A simpler way to raise mash ph is to mash thinner. Very effective and simple for dark beers.

Don't add chalk it has a habit of not disolving in water. It's very easy to fact check me here. Take a glass of water. Add a pinch of chalk. Result is cloudy water.

Chalk not disolving

 

[Newsman]

Try this on your next beer... put your hydrometer in the carboy with your beer and just check the reading through the side of the carboy. May not be as accurate (due to reading through the carboy) as if you were getting a sample and reading it from there, but at least you'll have peace of mind knowing you're not opening your carboy and potentially exposing it to bad stuff until you're 100% through fermenting. That's how I do my cider.

 

[Hookem86]

Not necessarily. There's a lot going on chemically speaking in a beer that could keep the sour taste from manifesting until later. CO2 levels changing, solids dropping from suspension, yeast byproducts interacting, etc. I have had a sour note manifest after 3 weeks in the keg before.

I'm not ruling out an infection by any means, I just think water is more likely based on OPs previous experience and the sudden transition to a new water source.

I should have asked this at the beginning, but how sour are we talking here, OP?

"Pucker your mouth lambic sour?" Or "a hint of tartness after a sip?"

I'd say closer to lambic sour, and the smell is quite sour in the carboy. The only one of these that I've bottled was a vanilla porter about a month ago and I can definitely taste the vanilla coming through, but the smell and taste is pretty sour overall. No gushers on any of them that I've opened.

 

[eastoak]

doesn't an infection seem unlikely if the FG is 1.028 both before and after souring and stable for 2 weeks?

this is an excellent point that i did not think about. if it is truly infected then the gravity would be expected to drop, how fast it would drop is the question. the high alcohol content would limit some, not all, of the souring bugs so it may never drop down to the traditional sour beer range.

 

[eastoak]

Thanks, I think I'm just gonna have to suck it up and throw out and replace the plastic stuff.

not telling you what to do but this is not going to solve your problem. what will you do if you get another sour beer, throw out the plastic gear again? if you do have a source of infection in your brew space you can test for that by brewing, or at least fermenting in a different space.

 

[BreezyBrew]

I'd say get a second opinion on the taste. Take it to a homebrew store or something, and see if they have any advice.

 

[Hookem86]

Update. I cleaned and sanitized my glass carboy and used new sanitized tubes for transfer from brew kettle. Also fermenting in a different spot in the apartment. These are pictures from today, day 6 of primary. In my year of brewing, I have not seen had this happen at all. What is going on in there?

 

[TheMadKing]

That could be normal yeast activity, but I agree that it's unusual looking. What's the recipe and yeast strain?

That looks a lot like wort proteins to me. They should be settled out in a matter of minutes after boiling though. I've never had them float up in clouds like that. What is the current temperature in the room you are fermenting in?

It could also be lactose curdle, cocoa powder clumps, or other adjunct/flavoring clumps if you put anything in there besides barley hops water and yeast.

 

[HomebrewSupply]

Update. I cleaned and sanitized my glass carboy and used new sanitized tubes for transfer from brew kettle. Also fermenting in a different spot in the apartment. These are pictures from today, day 6 of primary. In my year of brewing, I have not seen had this happen at all. What is going on in there?

Hard to tell exactly from the picture, but there's a good chance those are just yeast rafts. It's day 6, was there any krausen that rose then fell?

 

[m00ps]

Looks normal to me. Im guessing they will sink within a few days

 

[Hookem86]

Recipe is pretty simple: pale LME, biscuit, carabrown, hops and white labs California ale yeast

The Krausen looked pretty good on this one, had a typical rise and fall, then this stayed after it fell, hasn't done this before. Temp may be a little cooler than usual but not lower than 65

 

[TheMadKing]

Recipe is pretty simple: pale LME, biscuit, carabrown, hops and white labs California ale yeast

The Krausen looked pretty good on this one, had a typical rise and fall, then this stayed after it fell, hasn't done this before. Temp may be a little cooler than usual but not lower than 65

Oh yeah, then I agree with m00ps, it's probably just yeasty islands, I bet they sink if you gently swirl the fermenter

 

[BarrelAgedForrest]

I'm mildly curious after reading this entire thread. So you're using your tap water from the sounds of it? I'm curious more on the smell aspect, does it have a sour swimming pool chlorine sour smell? If no then disregard. But if yes, if your new place is in a new water District and they process the water with chlorine and chloramines then that could be playing a part. Just a thought. My reef tank has helped me in understanding the water chemistry aspect so I'm pretty anal about water. For instance our city uses both and the water tastes eh to drink and tastes like crap to cook with. Maybe try bottled water on your next go round?