My beer tastes "twangy"!

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Thats the best description I can come up with. They will taste fine going into the bottling bucket. Then, after 3 weeks of bottle conditioning, they have this off flavor. Doesnt happen all the time. Has happened with both corn sugar and honey for bottle conditioning. Thoughts??


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

 

[Dudest]

Using lme

 

[flars]

Oxidation?

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

I bottle condition at room temp. Is that bad?


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

 

[Yooper]

Bottling conditioning at room temperature is fine, although some of the "twang" might come from fermenting at above 70 degrees, especially if using certain yeast strains. Is that a possibility?

Using aged extract could also be a culprit.

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

My first 4 batches had extract and I fermented too high. Yeah!! That was tasty! Ugh. But Ive been all grain since. And my ales ferment at 62/65/68 for 7 days each. Really clean tasting. Thats whats weird about these beers. Theve tasted good going into the bucket. Its the bottle conditionin thats doin it. The worst one was when I used honey for conditioning.


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

The beers ive kegged havnt had this problem.


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

 

[hou_me]

Are you leaving the sediment in the bottle or pouring it in your glass?

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Often, the sediment is cold crashed in a solid cake at the bottom.


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

 

[MrHopScotch]

I've been struggling with something similar myself and since I started kegging some batches, I notice that the flavor is definitely not present (or much less so) in my kegged beers. This was an issue both for my first few extract batches and the AG batches that followed.

I can't put my finger on the flavor exactly, but it's sort of stale.

I don't know enough to say what it is, but my best guess is some sort of oxidation from the bottling process. Two things lead me in that direction: I notice this most on hoppier beers, and I also notice some variation from bottle to bottle. It seems like the ones that have a high amount of the this off flavor have almost nonexistent hop aroma/flavor. In the bottles that taste better, some more hop aroma seems intact.

I know the inconsistency could point to sanitation, but I'm pretty meticulous about cleaning and rinsing bottles well, sanitizing them, and pulling them straight out of the starsan before filling. In 15+ batches I have never had any bacterial issues. Additionally, I do not notice this flavor at all when kegging.

I think my next troubleshooting step may have to be something along the lines of separating the bottles that fill quietly from the ones that have a bit of splashing right at the beginning. This would allow me to compare those bottles and see if that makes a difference. Next step would be trying a batch where I purge half of the bottles with co2 before filling and compare those to the bottles that haven't been purged.

Best of luck figuring yours out, hopefully someone here may have some insight as to what is going on.

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

I've been struggling with something similar myself and since I started kegging some batches, I notice that the flavor is definitely not present (or much less so) in my kegged beers. This was an issue both for my first few extract batches and the AG batches that followed.

I can't put my finger on the flavor exactly, but it's sort of stale.

I don't know enough to say what it is, but my best guess is some sort of oxidation from the bottling process. Two things lead me in that direction: I notice this most on hoppier beers, and I also notice some variation from bottle to bottle. It seems like the ones that have a high amount of the this off flavor have almost nonexistent hop aroma/flavor. In the bottles that taste better, some more hop aroma seems intact.

I know the inconsistency could point to sanitation, but I'm pretty meticulous about cleaning and rinsing bottles well, sanitizing them, and pulling them straight out of the starsan before filling. In 15+ batches I have never had any bacterial issues. Additionally, I do not notice this flavor at all when kegging.

I think my next troubleshooting step may have to be something along the lines of separating the bottles that fill quietly from the ones that have a bit of splashing right at the beginning. This would allow me to compare those bottles and see if that makes a difference. Next step would be trying a batch where I purge half of the bottles with co2 before filling and compare those to the bottles that haven't been purged.

Best of luck figuring yours out, hopefully someone here may have some insight as to what is going on.

Im confident how Im preppin the bottles is not the issue.
In the beginning, I used Iodophor and I would fill those bottles when they were still wet. Then I learned I was supposed to let iodoohor dry before letting things touch it, so I started doing a 1 minute soak of my bottles in StarSan. I got bored of that process, so now I rinse my bottles with a bottle washer and then bake em in the oven a 200 deg for 20 minutes. Squeaky clean and no residue from anything. Sanitization in general, I've got that down. Im very meticulous!

It is likely that these arent hoppy beers, as most of my beers are not very hoppy.

When bottling, I separate bottles that get a squirt of air or are heavy on the dregs. I actually use permanent marker on the caps and write a "D". They havent to this day tasted different than the other "regular" beers.

I wonder if my longer ferm times are causing the yeast to drop out leaving me too litte yeast to clean things up? I rarely primary over three weeks.


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

 

[Yooper]

I wonder if my longer ferm times are causing the yeast to drop out leaving me too litte yeast to clean things up? I rarely primary over three weeks.


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

No, not a chance. That "clean up" time is about 24 hours right around the time the beer reaches FG. Some people do like the flavors in the beer imparted by a longer time on the yeast cake and will go 3-4 weeks, but I generally go 10-14 days in the fermenter.

Yeast health is a big part of the flavor profile of the beer, and some people like a longer primary while I do not. Perhaps the yeast is stressed, and that is coming out to your tastebuds as "twangy"? What type of yeast are you using in these beers, and how much yeast is pitched at what temperature? sometimes English ale yeast strains have a definite "tart" or "nutty" fruitiness that I dislike, particularly S04 ale yeast if fermented above 64 degrees.

 

[gatsby174]

I'm going to guess that it's your water. This is especially likely because you notice it most in the hop forward beers. I'd bet there are too many minerals in your water giving off flavors. Just my .02

 

[cjgenever]

The first thing I think of when I hear twang is oversparging. It adds a twangy bitterness (astringent) that sits in the back of your throat along with a strong grain flavor.

I once brewed a small beer that was purposely oversparged to reproduce what servants/slaves once drank. It was hard to get down:thumbdown:

 

[ajdelange]

This is actually quite common with extract beers. The only solution, AFAIK, is to be sure that the extract you are using is very fresh.

 

[Yooper]

This is actually quite common with extract beers. The only solution, AFAIK, is to be sure that the extract you are using is very fresh.

True, but the OP says that these are all-grain batches. Aside from yeast health and strain (including fermenting and pitching temps), all that comes to mind for me is water chemistry.

Water is huge, and having a too-high (or too-low) mash pH can have a flavor impact for sure, but generally it's too high and gives some astringent or harsh flavors. A too-low mash pH could be tart, but that would be nearly impossible for most people without adding lots of acid.

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

I'm going to guess that it's your water. This is especially likely because you notice it most in the hop forward beers. I'd bet there are too many minerals in your water giving off flavors. Just my .02

This is what Im beginning to wonder. I havn't had my water tested yet. I brew with my tap water run through a Brita filter. Thats the only change I make to it. My stouts dont exhibit it. But a mild smoked porter, honey brown clone ale (this was especially bad), my caribou slobber it happened. It didnt happen to my Yoopers cream ale, CO3C ale, octoberfest (matter of fact, it hasnt happened to any of my lagers except an Amber Bock clone fermed with S33. None of my hard ciders. Hasn't happened to any decoction german beers. All have tasted good going into the bottle, and if it goes twangy, time doesnt fix it. Why wud it taste good in sampling then twangy coming out of the bottle? Can oxygen absorbing caps do this?


"Sometimes Im right half of the time..."

 

[MrHopScotch]

Good point about the water, sounds like it's time to get a proper test. Does anybody have any recommendations on reasonably priced water testing?

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

No, not a chance. That "clean up" time is about 24 hours right around the time the beer reaches FG. Some people do like the flavors in the beer imparted by a longer time on the yeast cake and will go 3-4 weeks, but I generally go 10-14 days in the fermenter.



Yeast health is a big part of the flavor profile of the beer, and some people like a longer primary while I do not. Perhaps the yeast is stressed, and that is coming out to your tastebuds as "twangy"? What type of yeast are you using in these beers, and how much yeast is pitched at what temperature? sometimes English ale yeast strains have a definite "tart" or "nutty" fruitiness that I dislike, particularly S04 ale yeast if fermented above 64 degrees.

I need to gather my notes, because it is starting to look like beers in the brown ale and porter styles are more susceptible to it. That combined with my water??


"Sometimes Im right half of the time..."

 

[Yooper]

I need to gather my notes, because it is starting to look like beers in the brown ale and porter styles are more susceptible to it. That combined with my water??


"Sometimes Im right half of the time..."

Yes, check your notes as is if this is a flavor that comes form only dark beers with roasted malt vs in beers that use English ale yeast strains, that points to the water and mash pH; while if the common thread is certain yeast strains, that points to yeast health/temperature. Other things can be underpitching of those liquid yeast strains, or pitching at a too-high temperature which would of course still be yeast related.

 

[Yooper]

Good point about the water, sounds like it's time to get a proper test. Does anybody have any recommendations on reasonably priced water testing?

Ward Lab does them for $26.50. It's called their "household minerals test", and it's perfect for brewing. No need to get their more expensive "brewer's test".

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Ward Lab does them for $26.50. It's called their "household minerals test", and it's perfect for brewing. No need to get their more expensive "brewer's test".

Thanks Yoop, I'll get ahold of em


"Sometimes Im right half of the time..."

 

[scarekrow]

You wrote that your kegged beer didn't taste twangy but the one you bottled did. Do you use a spigot to fill the bottles and could it be dirty? I always disassemble mine whenever I use a bucket with a spigot and resanitize again before I reassemble. Or it may be the hose. It seems its something at bottling.

Or I may be all wet and it is the water.

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

You wrote that your kegged beer didn't taste twangy but the one you bottled did. Do you use a spigot to fill the bottles and could it be dirty? I always disassemble mine whenever I use a bucket with a spigot and resanitize again before I reassemble. Or it may be the hose. It seems its something at bottling.

Or I may be all wet and it is the water.

Yeah, this has only happened at bottling, and not all but some of my beers. No stout or cream ales. Not my pumpkin ale. It does seem that its happened to a mildly smoked porter, an amber bock lager clone, a honey brown clone, a caribou slobber. Seems like its dialing into those beer styles. Yoop may be right, that the water I have isnt going well with these styles. Its always seeme ol at bottling, then again I dont drink but a sample at bottling.


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

And I jus realized that I havnt kegged any beers of those styles.


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

 

[flars]

Yeah, this has only happened at bottling, and not all but some of my beers. No stout or cream ales. Not my pumpkin ale. It does seem that its happened to a mildly smoked porter, an amber bock lager clone, a honey brown clone, a caribou slobber. Seems like its dialing into those beer styles. Yoop may be right, that the water I have isnt going well with these styles. Its always seeme ol at bottling, then again I dont drink but a sample at bottling.


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

How do you fill your bottles?

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

How do you fill your bottles?

Tend to put the priming sugar in first (if sugar or DME than its boiled in a cup of filtered water for 5 minutes), rack the beer from primary, setup so that the hose touches the bottom and swirls but never splashes. Once racking is done I take the filling line and purge it of air. I use a bottle filler. With cooled bottles from the oven, I fill to 3/4"-1" of headspace. Cap with silver oxygen absorbing caps. Label bottle tops that got significant dregs or air. Wash, label and let sit at room temp for 2 weeks. If its a lager, I add 2 gr S-05 to 1 cup cooled water after it has been boiled.


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

 

[scarekrow]

I've read on another forum some guys were worried about getting an infection from running cold wort thru the ball valve on their kettle (they were thinking of just cooling the wort overnight and then rack to fermenter then next day.)

I've also noticed I still had some crud in my siphon hose after I had thoroughly cleaned it. I replace those more often now

If it's an infection, it's in one of those two places.

Good luck and let us know what you figure out

 

[Hoppity]

Are you laying a blanket of CO2 in your bottling bucket before filling?

 

[flars]

Tend to put the priming sugar in first (if sugar or DME than its boiled in a cup of filtered water for 5 minutes), rack the beer from primary, setup so that the hose touches the bottom and swirls but never splashes. Once racking is done I take the filling line and purge it of air. I use a bottle filler. With cooled bottles from the oven, I fill to 3/4"-1" of headspace. Cap with silver oxygen absorbing caps. Label bottle tops that got significant dregs or air. Wash, label and let sit at room temp for 2 weeks. If its a lager, I add 2 gr S-05 to 1 cup cooled water after it has been boiled.


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

Your bottling technique does not seem to have any flaws that would cause the problem.
Kegged beer is good so water may not be a problem.

Three other possibilities for the off taste.
The spigot on your bottling bucket or the the tip of your bottling wand is full of crud. Take these items apart for a thorough cleaning.

Next batch skip the oven bake for sanitizing and go back to Starsan for one batch.

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

I've read on another forum some guys were worried about getting an infection from running cold wort thru the ball valve on their kettle (they were thinking of just cooling the wort overnight and then rack to fermenter then next day.)

I've also noticed I still had some crud in my siphon hose after I had thoroughly cleaned it. I replace those more often now

If it's an infection, it's in one of those two places.

Good luck and let us know what you figure out

Im real careful bout anything that could be left behind (or at least I try to be). I clean everything on brewday and I put a small brush down through my tubes and small places. Completely disassemble my valve assemblies (what I can). Everything gets soaked and washed with hot water and Dawn. If its cold side equipment, then I soak it in StarSan and drain and dry before I put it away.


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Are you laying a blanket of CO2 in your bottling bucket before filling?

Ive never thought of doing that, and I see why that might be of benefit


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Your bottling technique does not seem to have any flaws that would cause the problem.
Kegged beer is good so water may not be a problem.

Three other possibilities for the off taste.
The spigot on your bottling bucket or the the tip of your bottling wand is full of crud. Take these items apart for a thorough cleaning.

Next batch skip the oven bake for sanitizing and go back to Starsan for one batch.

I have several spigots. I'll completely dissasseble and deep clean all of em before I use em again


"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Well, some intersting developments...

2 beers that have suffer from the most recent bout of "twanginess" and last tasted approx 5/30/14

1) A Loon lake Smoked Porter
Brewed on 2/19/14
Bottled on 3/14 with corn sugar
2) a Caribou Slobber brown ale
brewed on 3/7/14
Bottled on 4/6 with corn sugar

Both beers now are "cleaned up"! No twang. Jus good beer flavor. Time fixed the issue...

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Well, some intersting developments...

2 beers that have suffer from the most recent bout of "twanginess" and last tasted approx 5/30/14

1) A Loon lake Smoked Porter
Brewed on 2/19/14
Bottled on 3/14 with corn sugar
2) a Caribou Slobber brown ale
brewed on 3/7/14
Bottled on 4/6 with corn sugar

Both beers now are "cleaned up"! No twang. Jus good beer flavor. Time fixed the issue...

And both beers continue to improve. Lesson learned. If I get whatever this flavor is again, set it aside. Time heals all wounds.


"Sometimes Im right half of the time..."