Munich Helles questions

[Tony B]

I’ve brewed this style a couple times with mediocre results. Probably not the best approach, but I used 34/70 at about 66F. I have some ferm temp control, but this time of year it’s hard for me to get and then keep fermentation temps much lower than ale temps. I might be able to hold at like 60F. I was thinking of trying WLP-838, but wouldn’t want to experiment if it will throw off flavors at those temps. Would Novalager be a better Idea? Open to suggestions. Thanks

 

[mashdar]

I love 833 but haven't tried it warm. It seems like it might work. I found one person saying it gets estery, but no description of what kind. @dmtaylor appears to use it at 65F and reports no esters.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/wlp833-yeast-question.733236/

838 does seem riskier warm. I can't find many people talking about it warm. I'd be scared to, lol

 

[Tony B]

I love 833 but haven't tried it warm. It seems like it might work. I found one person saying it gets estery, but no description of what kind. @dmtaylor appears to use it at 65F and reports no esters.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/wlp833-yeast-question.733236/

838 does seem riskier warm. I can't find many people talking about it warm. I'd be scared to, lol

Thank you. Maybe it’s worth exploring.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Frankly, I wouldn't go looking for appreciable improvements from yeast in a helles. Helles is all about getting the most out of a very modest grist comprised of pils and a bit of Munich. I didn't put much stock in helles until I got my oxygen situation under control. In fact, I recently learned (by accident) that I actually like helles because I cloned a beer that I drank when I was marooned in Oregon for several months. To my surprise, Paulaner Munich Lager is marketed as a Helles in other countries. I had no clue.

If you're looking to improve your helles, I would suggest that your grist and your ability to translate that grist into the glass is where you'll find the most fertile grounds for improvement.

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement on the yeast front. I seasonally alternate my lager yeasts between 34/70 (warm months) and S-189 (cool months). Both make a nice helles, but I do look forward to the helles that I brew with S-189. I believe that both are proven strains for high temp "lager" production, but I stick with cool fermentation because I'm old and cantankerous.

Take what I write with a grain of salt, I'm by no means a helles expert. Frankly, I accidentally came in through the back door to helles appreciation. Others will know more.

 

[Halfakneecap]

S189 is very clean at higher temps. I use it at 15c/59f, and it is quite clean. I use it for clean summer rice lagers. I think it would be great for helles also.

I used it regularly at 12c, and when my fermentation fridge started to struggle to get to 12, i set it to 15c, and could not pick up any difference in the "cleanness" of the beers, so just use it at 15c now.

 

[ClaudiusB]

I’ve brewed this style a couple times with mediocre results. Probably not the best approach, but I used 34/70 at about 66F. I have some ferm temp control, but this time of year it’s hard for me to get and then keep fermentation temps much lower than ale temps. I might be able to hold at like 60F. I was thinking of trying WLP-838, but wouldn’t want to experiment if it will throw off flavors at those temps. Would Novalager be a better Idea? Open to suggestions. Thanks

Two pictures of my Helles interpretation with 76% Weyermann Pils and 24% Weyermann Munich I.
I ferment all my Helles with liquid yeast at 50°F.
I have used the WLP833 with great success.

 

[VTMongoose]

If you have the ability to ferment in keg under pressure, I would try Nottingham over Novalager at 66°F. I don't exactly understand what Novalager's purpose is in Lallemand's porfolio, other than to say "we have a pastoranius strain that works well at higher temperatures". To me Nottingham is faster and cleaner and ideal for malt-forward beers.

I’ve brewed this style a couple times with mediocre results. Probably not the best approach, but I used 34/70 at about 66F. I have some ferm temp control, but this time of year it’s hard for me to get and then keep fermentation temps much lower than ale temps. I might be able to hold at like 60F. I was thinking of trying WLP-838, but wouldn’t want to experiment if it will throw off flavors at those temps. Would Novalager be a better Idea? Open to suggestions. Thanks

What's your recipe and process? It might not be a yeast issue but some other issue. What about the beer did you not like? 34/70 should be reasonably clean even at 66°F assuming you were actually able to hold the temperature of the wort itself there the entire time and you aren't just quoting a temperature probe on the outside of the vessel.

 

[jdauria]

I don't think WLP838 handles warm temp fermentation well. Post your Helles recipe so we can see if there is anything there that we can suggest to help.

Personally, I like something like 93% Barke Pils 7% CaraHell and about 22 IBUs of German hops. Though currently I have a kitchen sink Helles on tap now that is very tasty using Eraclea Pilsner, Barke Pils, a little Sekado Bohemian Pils, CaraHell and some acidulated malt. Was clearing out stock.

My go to yeast these days for a Helles is WLP860 Munich Helles, the Augustiner strain. Figure if the oldest brewery in Munich has been making Helles for centuries, it counts for something. The yeast really brings out the maltiness. Unfortunately I have no clue how that strain works at warm temps.

Don't know what you ferment in, but if a bucket or carboy, could you do a swamp cooler? Get a cooler the fermenter will fit in, add cold water 1/3 to 1/2 way up the fermenter and put in frozen water bottles. Change the bottles every 12 hours or so. Then put a towel around the ferementer with it partially in the water too so that it will wick up water and help cool the beer. Prior to having temp control, I was able to do lagers in mid 50's with this method.

 

[duelerx]

If you have the ability to ferment in keg under pressure, I would try Nottingham over Novalager at 66°F. I don't exactly understand what Novalager's purpose is in Lallemand's porfolio, other than to say "we have a pastoranius strain that works well at higher temperatures". To me Nottingham is faster and cleaner and ideal for malt-forward beers.



What's your recipe and process? It might not be a yeast issue but some other issue. What about the beer did you not like? 34/70 should be reasonably clean even at 66°F assuming you were actually able to hold the temperature of the wort itself there the entire time and you aren't just quoting a temperature probe on the outside of the vessel.

My test with Nova it has been clean and ferment time like an ale, but its clean like an ale different to the classic lager flavor profile and takes a while to clear.

 

[VTMongoose]

My test with Nova it has been clean and ferment time like an ale, but its clean like an ale different to the classic lager flavor profile and takes a while to clear.

"Takes a while to clear" is an understatement. I don't think I've ever brewed with a strain less flocculant than Novalager. I hit my serving keg with gelatin twice, and it still never poured clear for the couple months I had it on tap. Notty is also pretty bad, but I've never had a beer just outright not clear with it. This was a beer with over 100 ppm's of Calcium, too. I'll probably never use Novalager again just for this reason alone frankly.

 

[redrocker652002]

I don't think WLP838 handles warm temp fermentation well. Post your Helles recipe so we can see if there is anything there that we can suggest to help.

Personally, I like something like 93% Barke Pils 7% CaraHell and about 22 IBUs of German hops. Though currently I have a kitchen sink Helles on tap now that is very tasty using Eraclea Pilsner, Barke Pils, a little Sekado Bohemian Pils, CaraHell and some acidulated malt. Was clearing out stock.

My go to yeast these days for a Helles is WLP860 Munich Helles, the Augustiner strain. Figure if the oldest brewery in Munich has been making Helles for centuries, it counts for something. The yeast really brings out the maltiness. Unfortunately I have no clue how that strain works at warm temps.

Don't know what you ferment in, but if a bucket or carboy, could you do a swamp cooler? Get a cooler the fermenter will fit in, add cold water 1/3 to 1/2 way up the fermenter and put in frozen water bottles. Change the bottles every 12 hours or so. Then put a towel around the ferementer with it partially in the water too so that it will wick up water and help cool the beer. Prior to having temp control, I was able to do lagers in mid 50's with this method.

I have a Helles in the fermenter now. I used WLP860 dry and used 2 packs. It took almost 48 hours to get started and is getting thru it, but it is a very slow yeast in my opinion. I am fermenting at about 52 degrees and noticed a very strong sulphur smell about 4 or 5 days into it. It seems to be dissipating, but it is taking it's time. My gravity is about 1.028 or so after about a week and is still showing me activity so I am going to let it run another week and see what happens. It should be in the area of 1.011 or so. This is my first time using this yeast and brewing this style, so take that for what it is worth.

 

[wepeeler]

I don't think WLP838 handles warm temp fermentation well. Post your Helles recipe so we can see if there is anything there that we can suggest to help.

Personally, I like something like 93% Barke Pils 7% CaraHell and about 22 IBUs of German hops. Though currently I have a kitchen sink Helles on tap now that is very tasty using Eraclea Pilsner, Barke Pils, a little Sekado Bohemian Pils, CaraHell and some acidulated malt. Was clearing out stock.

My go to yeast these days for a Helles is WLP860 Munich Helles, the Augustiner strain. Figure if the oldest brewery in Munich has been making Helles for centuries, it counts for something. The yeast really brings out the maltiness. Unfortunately I have no clue how that strain works at warm temps.

Don't know what you ferment in, but if a bucket or carboy, could you do a swamp cooler? Get a cooler the fermenter will fit in, add cold water 1/3 to 1/2 way up the fermenter and put in frozen water bottles. Change the bottles every 12 hours or so. Then put a towel around the ferementer with it partially in the water too so that it will wick up water and help cool the beer. Prior to having temp control, I was able to do lagers in mid 50's with this method.

This. The Augustiner strain is AWESOME for Helles. I ferment at 52 straight through, no D rest. 21 day fermentation and into keg. Super simple grist 95% Pils and 5% Vienna or Munich. Just kegged a fresh batch last Thursday!

 

[jdauria]

I have a Helles in the fermenter now. I used WLP860 dry and used 2 packs. It took almost 48 hours to get started and is getting thru it, but it is a very slow yeast in my opinion. I am fermenting at about 52 degrees and noticed a very strong sulphur smell about 4 or 5 days into it. It seems to be dissipating, but it is taking it's time. My gravity is about 1.028 or so after about a week and is still showing me activity so I am going to let it run another week and see what happens. It should be in the area of 1.011 or so. This is my first time using this yeast and brewing this style, so take that for what it is worth.

Yeah it definitely has a little more lag time getting going and is a strong sufur producer, reminding me of some Czech strains that have the same lag time and sulfure. But it cleans up nicely in my opinion. I tend to bump my temps up after a week to around 55 for 3-4 days then up to low 60's for a D-rest, which can help it finish out.

 

[duelerx]

I have a Helles in the fermenter now. I used WLP860 dry and used 2 packs. It took almost 48 hours to get started and is getting thru it, but it is a very slow yeast in my opinion. I am fermenting at about 52 degrees and noticed a very strong sulphur smell about 4 or 5 days into it. It seems to be dissipating, but it is taking it's time. My gravity is about 1.028 or so after about a week and is still showing me activity so I am going to let it run another week and see what happens. It should be in the area of 1.011 or so. This is my first time using this yeast and brewing this style, so take that for what it is worth.

Someday I want to try dry 860, I liked a lot the liquid form.

 

[Broothru]

Someday I want to try dry 860, I liked a lot the liquid form.

Agree, I've used 860 a lot, always liquid and always for Helles. I looked at trying the dry 860, but for the price of 2 sachets I can get 1 Pure Pitch and a can of Proper. Spend a day on the stir plate and I've got 2L of fresher yeast for less cost. It might be nice to have an 'emergency supply' in the form of dry yeast in the beer fridge that keeps for years, but I always plan ahead anyway.

 

[mashdar]

I didn't realize they had dry other than wlp001. I guess I'm behind the times. Neat.

WTB dry 833