Multiple packs of lager yeast, no starter...

[Rob2010SS]

The wife and I were going to try and brew a last minute lager this weekend. I always forget that we need extra time for a starter for lagers. For ales, I usually just by 3 packs of yeast and pitch all 3 and haven't had any issues. However, for a lager, I know this isn't ideal, but how many packs would one recommend for 15 gallons of 1.046 OG lager?

I'm thinking we're not going to do it. I think this is going to be ridiculously expensive, but thought I'd get some thoughts on this.

 

[VikeMan]

I'd say about 5 packs, assuming 200B cells per Fermentis 11.5 gram pack (debatable, but a popular number) and a 1.5M Cells/ml/Degree P pitch rate. More if assuming less cells per pack.

Edit: I was assuming dry yeast. If we're talking 100B cells per pack liquid yeast, and assuming it's brand spanking new, I'd say about 9.7 packs.

 

[Rob2010SS]

How about liquid yeast?

 

[Rob2010SS]

This is a mexican lager so we typically use the mexican lager yeast from omega.

 

[VikeMan]

How about liquid yeast?

See edit above. That said, it looks like your normal ale pitch rate is lower than what I would do. If you were to reduce mine to match yours, you'd be looking at 6 packs of new liquid yeast for a lager.

 

[VikeMan]

This is a mexican lager so we typically use the mexican lager yeast from omega.

I'd find out how many cells are in pack of Omega yeast (maybe 200B on average?) and adjust accordingly.

ETA: Since you are paying attention to pitch rates, I'd recommend looking into one of the yeast calculators.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I'd find out how many cells are in pack of Omega yeast (maybe 200B on average?) and adjust accordingly.

ETA: Since you are paying attention to pitch rates, I'd recommend looking into one of the yeast calculators.

Yeah, the one I typically use is the Homebrew Dad's Yeast Calculator. Says I need 1104B cells, which tells me if I got the freshest packs possible, i'd need 11 packs, which is retarded. I'm not going to do that. (Omega is 100B per pack I think...)

I knew this wasn't an ideal situation, I guess I was just looking for someone to say yeah, just buy a few packs and you'll be fine OR eh, I wouldn't do that if I were you...

 

[VikeMan]

Yeah, the one I typically use is the Homebrew Dad's Yeast Calculator. Says I need 1104B cells, which tells me if I got the freshest packs possible, i'd need 11 packs, which is retarded. I'm not going to do that.

It always looks shocking. But it's not crazy. It's just expensive doing it without starters. That said, I wonder what assumptions has it coming up with 11 packs, which does seem a little high to me. Maybe a higher default lager pitch rate or an assumption about age.

 

[VikeMan]

I knew this wasn't an ideal situation, I guess I was just looking for someone to say yeah, just buy a few packs and you'll be fine OR eh, I wouldn't do that if I were you...

I can add one thing. The first time I brewed a beer in a comm'l brewery (as a BOS prize), it was a 15 barrel batch of my Bo Pils. I had sent all the particulars, including pitch rate, to the pro, who gave me the thumbs up. When I arrived on brew day, I saw the yeast that had just been delivered. It was about 1/5 of the amount I had specified. It made beer. It was ok, but not great. It was too estery IMO. And it took a really long time to ferment.

 

[Rob2010SS]

It always looks shocking. But it's not crazy. It's just expensive doing it without starters. That said, I wonder what assumptions has it coming up with 11 packs, which does seem a little high to me. Maybe a higher default lager pitch rate or an assumption about age.

In the calculator, I always assume that the yeast is 1 month old, as I cannot guarantee that the shop will have fresh yeast. So that could be where it's coming from. Here's a screenshot from the calculator...

 

[Rob2010SS]

I can add one thing. The first time I brewed a beer in a comm'l brewery (as a BOS prize), it was a 15 barrel batch of my Bo Pils. I had sent all the particulars, including pitch rate, to the pro, who gave me the thumbs up. When I arrived on brew day, I saw the yeast that had just been delivered. It was about 1/5 of the amount I had specified. It made beer. It was ok, but not great. It was too estery IMO. And it took a really long time to ferment.

With how many people we share this with, and with how particular my wife and I are with the taste of our beers, not sure I want to take that chance. I know we'll still have beer if we don't pitch enough but will we enjoy it is the important question.

Looks like we'll just be postponing 1 week.

 

[VikeMan]

In the calculator, I always assume that the yeast is 1 month old, as I cannot guarantee that the shop will have fresh yeast. So that could be where it's coming from.

That's probably it.

Here's a screenshot from the calculator...

Yikes. That's the calculator that shows the amount of DME needed for the first step, but not for subsequent steps. Otherwise, it seems ok.

 

[Rob2010SS]

That's probably it.



Yikes. That's the calculator that shows the amount of DME needed for the first step, but not for subsequent steps. Otherwise, it seems ok.

Seems like it would make sense that in this particular case for subsequent steps, you would use 101g of DME per Liter, no? This is the only calculator I've used so that's an assumption I've always made.

 

[VikeMan]

Seems like it would make sense that in this particular case for subsequent steps, you would use 101g of DME per Liter, no? This is the only calculator I've used so that's an assumption I've always made.

Yes, a normal multi-step starter (as opposed to a step-up-from-dregs starter) would typically use the same ratio of DME to water for each step. What I don't understand is why they don't just show the amount for the subsequent steps. I've seen people assume/guess that the amount of DME shown is the total for all steps, which it clearly isn't.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Yeah. Not going to lie. I’ve wondered that as well when I first started doing stepped starters using this calculator.
Thanks for the chat @VikeMan

 

[jdauria]

If I had to pitch yeast without a starter for a lager, I would just get 2 packs of whatever lager yeast from Imperial...they have 200 billion cells per pack, when super fresh and even if a month or two old, would most likely be enough for an average OG of a lager unless you doing like a 1.080 lager. May not be an optimal pitch rate, but would work. Imperial Harvest is my go to for most lagers and it's a beast. But for 15 gallons, you would need 5 packs, but it would still be an under pitch based on yeast calculator on brewers friend...so I would go with 6 packs. If fresh, that would be a 1.74B cells/mL/Degree Plato, which is just above the 1.5B cell rate that is the base lager pitch rate on that calculator. Of course, 6 packs of Imperial is going to run you $60 plus, so a lot of packs of dry yeast is definitely cheaper.

 

[Rob2010SS]

If I had to pitch yeast without a starter for a lager, I would just get 2 packs of whatever lager yeast from Imperial...they have 200 billion cells per pack, when super fresh and even if a month or two old, would most likely be enough for an average OG of a lager unless you doing like a 1.080 lager. May not be an optimal pitch rate, but would work. Imperial Harvest is my go to for most lagers and it's a beast. But for 15 gallons, you would need 5 packs, but it would still be an under pitch based on yeast calculator on brewers friend...so I would go with 6 packs. If fresh, that would be a 1.74B cells/mL/Degree Plato, which is just above the 1.5B cell rate that is the base lager pitch rate on that calculator. Of course, 6 packs of Imperial is going to run you $60 plus, so a lot of packs of dry yeast is definitely cheaper.

Any idea on the best way to get ahold of Imperial Yeast in the Chicago area? My LHBS doesn't carry it.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Disregard. I found it. It's a LHBS in Jainesville, WI.

Anyone know if Omega or Imperial will sell a larger pitch direct to brewers?

 

[IslandLizard]

From Omega's FAQ (my emphasis in red):

How many yeast cells are in your homebrew packs?
Through our proprietary process, we generate the optimal number of yeast cells, which varies from strain from strain, to yield the best and most consistent performance for each.

As a result of genetic differences, we have observed strain to strain variation in cell counts even under identical growth conditions. Certain strains may contain up to 500 billion cells per pack while other strains may contain slightly less than 150 billion cells per pack.

Most importantly, all packs contain the optimal number of viable yeast cells to ferment 5 gallons of wort up to 1.060 OG at the time of packaging.

The number of cells in the pack do not define the success of the brew.

 

[IslandLizard]

Anyone know if Omega or Imperial will sell a larger pitch direct to brewers?

Look at the Pro Brewing side of their site.
You'd need an account and there's a 7 day lead time.

You can always contact them and see what they have or offer you.

Although it's darn tight, you've still got 2-3 days before pitching, so you could make a starter (or brew a beer) and pitch that yeast cake.

FYI, all Imperial packs are (at least) 200 billion cells.

 

[Rob2010SS]

From Omega's FAQ (my emphasis in red):

How many yeast cells are in your homebrew packs?
Through our proprietary process, we generate the optimal number of yeast cells, which varies from strain from strain, to yield the best and most consistent performance for each.

As a result of genetic differences, we have observed strain to strain variation in cell counts even under identical growth conditions. Certain strains may contain up to 500 billion cells per pack while other strains may contain slightly less than 150 billion cells per pack.

Most importantly, all packs contain the optimal number of viable yeast cells to ferment 5 gallons of wort up to 1.060 OG at the time of packaging.

The number of cells in the pack do not define the success of the brew.

For some reason, I thought it was 100B like Wyeast. Guess I was wrong there. I wonder if they would tell me how many cells are in a pack of OYL-113.... I'll email them and see.

Look at the Pro Brewing side of their site.
You'd need an account and there's a 7 day lead time.

You can always contact them and see what they have or offer you.

Although it's darn tight, you've still got 2-3 days before pitching, so you could make a starter (or brew a beer) and pitch that yeast cake.

FYI, all Imperial packs are (at least) 200 billion cells.

I did email both Imperial and Omega to see if they'd sell me a larger pitch directly. I doubt they will but you won't know unless you ask I suppose.

I've also asked my LHBS is they'd deliver the yeast to me to get a starter going. We'll see how that goes. I work until 530-6 lately and by the time I would get to my LHBS, they'd be closed. Otherwise, I'm not usually this needy LOL.

 

[IslandLizard]

The wife and I were going to try and brew a last minute lager this weekend. I always forget that we need extra time for a starter for lagers.

Do you have to brew that batch this weekend? If you can push it off for a week, you can build plenty of yeast by then.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Do you have to brew that batch this weekend? If you can push it off for a week, you can build plenty of yeast by then.

I don't HAVE to, no. We're trying to have this batch ready for Cinco de Mayo. If I brew next weekend, that gives me 5 weeks to get it done and this beer usually hits it's stride at 3 weeks of lagering.

I think I would be OK to do it next weekend. Doing it this weekend just gave me a buffer.

 

[jdauria]

Any idea on the best way to get ahold of Imperial Yeast in the Chicago area? My LHBS doesn't carry it.

Try Hop Craft Supply in Michigan, they have pretty fast shipping to me in Mass for certain things, so you may be able to get next day in Chicago. Hop Craft Supply Co. | Beer & Wine Making Supplies Or even More Beer. Just an FYI, Imperial which is in Oregon, recently opened an East Coast location and their goal is to start shipping yeast directly to homebrewers from both locations this summer, as right now they just ship to shops or to breweries in pro sizes.

 

[IslandLizard]

I've also asked my LHBS is they'd deliver the yeast to me to get a starter going.

Have someone else pick it up?

Or if you pre-pay, maybe they can put it "somewhere" for you to pick up?
At my LHBS, the owner (or one of her employees) will take the order home, for me to pick it up there.

The other issue you'd need to keep in mind, even if they have plenty on hand, most LHBS' yeast is 2-3 months old on average, so you'd start out with 70-80% viability.

 

[Barbarossa]

Wow, 11 packs... Isn't that close to a five gallon starter?

My basic inexperienced opinion, based on my limited research last week to do my first lager, is that a yeast pack is good for a 5 gallon batch. Lagers needs two packs, or a one or two quart starter. So my guesstimate would be three packs in a three to six quart starter for a 15 gallon batch.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Have someone else pick it up?

Or if you pre-pay, maybe they can put it "somewhere" for you to pick up?
At my LHBS, the owner (or one of her employees) will take the order home, for me to pick it up there.

The other issue you'd need to keep in mind, even if they have plenty on hand, most LHBS' yeast is 2-3 months old on average, so you'd start out with 70-80% viability.

I've been going to this shop for a while. Typically the yeast I get from them is about 1 - 1.5 months old. They've had a few occasions where they had older and gave it to me but I always check the dates and ask for fresher if need be.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Have someone else pick it up?

Or if you pre-pay, maybe they can put it "somewhere" for you to pick up?
At my LHBS, the owner (or one of her employees) will take the order home, for me to pick it up there.

The other issue you'd need to keep in mind, even if they have plenty on hand, most LHBS' yeast is 2-3 months old on average, so you'd start out with 70-80% viability.

They've already told me they'd meet me half way with an order at one of the breweries near me. But I dont' think my work schedule will allow me to do that at a time that works for them as well. They're pretty accommodating so we'll see what they say.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Wow, 11 packs... Isn't that close to a five gallon starter?

My basic inexperienced opinion, based on my limited research last week to do my first lager, is that a yeast pack is good for a 5 gallon batch. Lagers needs two packs, or a one or two quart starter. So my guesstimate would be three packs in a three to six quart starter for a 15 gallon batch.

Nooo, not a 5 gallon starter. There's not that much liquid in the packs.

For a lager, 3 packs of yeast would be a pretty serious underpitch I think. I just don't think that would cut it honestly.

 

[Barbarossa]

Nooo, not a 5 gallon starter. There's not that much liquid in the packs.

For a lager, 3 packs of yeast would be a pretty serious underpitch I think. I just don't think that would cut it honestly.

The five gallon was a joke.

The three packs is with a good starter...

Wyeast said for a lager, one pack with a starter for a five gallon. You make three times five gallon. Sounds like three packs with a starter to me.

https://wyeastlab.com/making-starter