Mr Malty questions and concerns

[asterix404]

So I have to say right now that I hate Mr. Malty. I know why too. So I made a 5.5G 66GP porter yesterday and it told me that I needed 1.25L of starter because I used a stir plate. I also used the nutrients in the smack pack as well as a yeast nutrient tab. The size of my starter was about 500ml. I did the typical 2c water, 1/2c DME and washed out the yeast packet etc, and ended up with about 500ml. I ran the stir plate for 24h. The liquid was thin and yeast colored by the time I poured it in. Fermentation took off in less than 3h and 24h after adding the yeast I have the air lock bubbling about 60 times as minute. I did it with 1/3 of the amount of yeast that Mr. Malty tells me I should have. Why should I ever believe what Mr. Malty tells me when I get fantastic results from completely ignoring it?

I ask because there are so much people who refer to it as the be all end all and I produce excellent beer without nearly the amount of yeast that it tells me I should have.

 

[Hammy71]

For a lot of beers you don't even need a starter. Can you make beer when you under pitch? Hell yeah. Can you make good beer? Sometimes. I use White Labs, and when I first started using liquid yeast, I just pitched it with less than stellar/inconsistent results. Now that I make a starter using Mr. Malty, I've never had a stuck fermentation. Commercial brewers use the same formula as Mr. Malty. I've read a lot of books and even some books on tape from professors that have been brew masters for some of the worlds largest breweries. And they all agree...too much yeast = bad. To little = bad. That's the balancing act. Simple terms.... Yeast convert sugar to alcohol. But yeast also use sugars to multiply. Do you want them using the sugar to make babies or alcohol? I think a lot of people on here give Jamil a bad rap. Do I worship the guy? No. But I will try to learn from his experience, which by default is greater than mine.

 

[SenorPepe]

The concern typically is not "will it ferment", which it will unless you underpitch by a whole lot, but will it produce the best product? So I think you're framing the question wrong. If you think the results are fantastic and it couldn't really be any better on the fermentation side, then that's all that really matters.

 

[hypergolic]

I don't understand why you hate Mr Malty. Do what works for you, Mr Malty is just telling you how much yeast you need to make the best possible beer.

 

[mjohnson]

Why should I ever believe what Mr. Malty tells me when I get fantastic results from completely ignoring it?

Nothing says you have to use/believe it. But Jamil has spent a lot of time and energy making a lot of beer with the sole purpose of figuring out how much yeast to use to make great beer.

As someone who hasn't made that much beer, I really appreciate it because I get to benefit from all that experience. Do I always end up with as much yeast as it recommends? No. But its a very useful yardstick to use when evaluating whats going on in your beer.

 

[iaefebs]

If you have BeerSmith 2 try the starter calculator on there. I find it is more accurate than Mr Malty when you use a stir plate.

 

[asterix404]

I hate Mr. Malty because I find that it truly overdoes the yeast. The jump from not making a starter to a starter is huge. The jump between 500ml on a stir plate and 1L on a stir plate should not be that large. If it is, I would be very surprised. I love the book Yeast and it is clear that Jamil really knows what he is talking about but every time I see someone quote Mr. Malty in a forum post it drives me nuts because you just don't need to build up as much yeast as he would have you believe. A tiny vial of white labs should be propagated, and as is described by Daniels, a starter of 2c water 1/2c DME over night, 24 or 48h, even without a stir plate, is perfectly sufficient. If I was buying yeast from wyeast for a 50bbl batch, I would love to know how much to get, but for home brewers I fail to see this particular bench mark as being useful.

My problem is that telling people that "you way under pitched here is what Mr. Malty says you should have done..." is just silly since almost no one does what Mr. Malty tells us to do. We either create a moderate starter or re-pitch from the cake. Both of which are incredibly beneficial. I sort of wish the statement was changed to you really should always make a starter or size X, 1L, 500ml, 1/2G because that is easy to tell people and what we normally would do anyway. I don't know, maybe it is just me venting, but I keep on seeing it and I voice an opinion that it should change.

 

[samc]

Mr M uses a set of assumptions and in no way can you religiously believe that is the only way to brew and pitch yeast. However if every new brewer followed Mr M, we would see a lot less posts with stuck fermentations and off flavors. Mr M is to be congratulated for his fine work. Mr M can't account for your fermentation temps, proper wort preparation, water chemistry, etc. so I believe it errs on the side of more yeast for great results.

Can you pitch less and have a good beer - apparently so as you have proved to yourself and I have on occasion cheated the Mr M formula and been happy with the results.

To his credit Jamil Z has done a lot more for home brewing than most of us and deserves the respect he is often given.

I'm not Jamil Z and I endorse this message.

 

[huge1s]

I hate Mr. Malty because I find that it truly overdoes the yeast. The jump from not making a starter to a starter is huge. The jump between 500ml on a stir plate and 1L on a stir plate should not be that large. If it is, I would be very surprised. I love the book Yeast and it is clear that Jamil really knows what he is talking about but every time I see someone quote Mr. Malty in a forum post it drives me nuts because you just don't need to build up as much yeast as he would have you believe. A tiny vial of white labs should be propagated, and as is described by Daniels, a starter of 2c water 1/2c DME over night, 24 or 48h, even without a stir plate, is perfectly sufficient. If I was buying yeast from wyeast for a 50bbl batch, I would love to know how much to get, but for home brewers I fail to see this particular bench mark as being useful.

My problem is that telling people that "you way under pitched here is what Mr. Malty says you should have done..." is just silly since almost no one does what Mr. Malty tells us to do. We either create a moderate starter or re-pitch from the cake. Both of which are incredibly beneficial. I sort of wish the statement was changed to you really should always make a starter or size X, 1L, 500ml, 1/2G because that is easy to tell people and what we normally would do anyway. I don't know, maybe it is just me venting, but I keep on seeing it and I voice an opinion that it should change.

Isn't that basically what Mr. Malty tells you? You should make a starter of size X? It really sounds like you have a problem with Mr. Malty giving people more precise measurements. 1.17L as opposed to 1L. Some people like to be more precise than others and it doesn't mean you can't make good beer if your measurements are off by .01L... it is just a way of knowing what is optimal from a source that you, yourself said that he knows what he is doing. I for one would not measure out 1.17L.... I would measure more than 1 and less than 1.25 and know that I am pretty close. If you want to, and have the equipment to get your 1.17... then you can feel good about being "optimal". Doesn't bother me in the least.

If I have learned anything from this forum and this new hobby.... it's that there are a million ways to brew beer. All of which will produce beer. If you are interested in fine tuning and learning about the science behind it, there are plenty of people willing to help. If you want to boil some water and dump some stuff in it to make beer... there are plenty of people to help with that as well. I don't think blaming Mr. Malty for people adding a decimal point or two to their posts is cause for concern.

 

[hypergolic]

I am curious as to how you know he overdoes the yeast? How do you know someone doesn't need as much yeast as Jamil/Mr. Malty suggests? I am not saying you don't know this, but I think I am going listen to Jamil he has a wealth of experience and is a very respected brewer.

I do what Mr. Malty suggests and I get great beer so I will continue to do so.

 

[terrapinj]

I've rarely seen threads on here where people knock the size of the starter because it is less than what Mr Malty recommends unless it's significantly smaller like for lagers, huge beers etc.

I doubt anyone would say 500ml starter is a mistake when MM suggests 1L instead

there are a # of assumptions in his calculations that TRY to calculate as best as possible but as we all know yeast are living organisms that don't always follow the rules we think they do. however, he has access to professionals and lab equipment the vast majority of us do not plus many more years of experience than many of us as well

he provides a great resource that the majority of us utilize for FREE - hate is such a strong word for someone that is simply trying to help us all make the best beer possible.

it's not like he is manufacturing DME to try to get us all to use unnecessary amounts so that he can profit off of us

adding an extra 50g of DME to make a 1L starter instead of 500ml is 1/10th of a lb of DME - that's less than 50cents of DME - well worth it to me to make sure i've got plenty of healthy yeast

if you feel otherwise you are of course entitled to your own opinion based off of your own results and experiences but don't hate the guy for trying to help us all

 

[Hammy71]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-overpitch-underpitch-experiment-microbiologist-284819/

 

[Pie_Man]

On one of my batches, a 1.109 OG old ale, I used a large, 1.7L, starter with one vial of white labs without a stir plate. Mr. Malty suggested two vials in my case, and sure enough, I was off about 8GPs. I'm sure it's possible to use less yeast and make great beer, but I appreciate the Mr. Malty tool.