Most efficient use of hops and the hop stand/dry hop saturation points

[CyberFox]

I have often wondered if I'm being efficient with my use of hops. I am more than happy to throw in a pound of hops in an IPA if it gives me maximum flavor and aroma (hophead! ), but if I'm well past the point of diminishing returns, I'm just wasting money, hops, and beer due to hop absorption.

According to this article about Shellhammer's well-known research on dry hopping, he came to the conclusion that anything over 1.1 oz/gal (5.5 oz per 5 gallon batch) was an inefficient use of hops. He also found that citrus aromas were maxed out at 0.55 oz/gal (2.75 oz per 5 gallon batch) and anything beyond that amount resulted in increasing herbal/tea aromas.

Brewers have used more and more hops over time, especially in NEIPAs. I have heard of many NEIPAs using dry hop amounts that go way beyond the dry hop saturation point determined by Shellhammer. Are these amounts actually useful or are they being wasted?

A few questions for anyone who can answer or has an opinion on the matter:
1. Has anyone found evidence that counters Shellhammer's findings?

2. Has anyone had noticeable results going beyond the supposed 1.1 oz/gal saturation point?

3. Has anyone had equally good results with something like 3 oz of hops per batch compared to 6 oz?

4. Would hop stands be the same as dry hopping regarding saturation levels? If so, would they still make an impact if the dry hop saturation point has already been reached (or vice versa)?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Are you familiar with the work of Scott Janis?

http://scottjanish.com/

 

[CyberFox]

Are you familiar with the work of Scott Janis?

http://scottjanish.com/

I have heard of Janish and he has some seriously interesting material, but I'm not sure if he has confirmed or disproven Shellhammer's findings. I'm also looking for others' experience or opinions on the subject.

 

[Miraculix]

I have heard of Janish and he has some seriously interesting material, but I'm not sure if he has confirmed or disproven Shellhammer's findings. I'm also looking for others' experience or opinions on the subject.

He wrote an entire book about exactly that subject. Well worth the money. Long story short, 5g/l dry hop is the saturation point. 3 days dry hop max. Better two. Best at cold temperature.

 

[CyberFox]

He wrote an entire book about exactly that subject. Well worth the money. Long story short, 5g/l dry hop is the saturation point. 3 days dry hop max. Better two. Best at cold temperature.

That's good info. I've read his articles online, but I haven't read his book. I might pick it up at some point. So Janish determined that approximately 3.5 oz of hops per 5 gallon batch was the saturation point, which is close to Shellhammer's findings.

If that's just the official answer and nobody has experimented to prove or disprove Shellhammer's or Janish's findings, I guess that's all there is to it. I'll probably try using half the amount of hops for my next batch and see what happens.

 

[Miraculix]

That's good info. I've read his articles online, but I haven't read his book. I might pick it up at some point. So Janish determined that approximately 3.5 oz of hops per 5 gallon batch was the saturation point, which is close to Shellhammer's findings.

If that's just the official answer and nobody has experimented to prove or disprove Shellhammer's or Janish's findings, I guess that's all there is to it. I'll probably try using half the amount of hops for my next batch and see what happens.

He also clearly distinguishes between dry hopping and late additions/hop stands. They both delivery different things. This topic is too big to sum it up, better get yourself a copy of this book. I'm not a hop head and still I think this is probably the most useful brewing book I've bought so far.

 

[jlash630]

He also clearly distinguishes between dry hopping and late additions/hop stands. They both delivery different things. This topic is too big to sum it up, better get yourself a copy of this book. I'm not a hop head and still I think this is probably the most useful brewing book I've bought so far.

I currently have a black IPA fermenting and was planning on dry hopping it this weekend, you mentioned in his book that dry hopping was best cold.. Should i crash the beer then dry hop it?

 

[Miraculix]

I currently have a black IPA fermenting and was planning on dry hopping it this weekend, you mentioned in his book that dry hopping was best cold.. Should i crash the beer then dry hop it?

If you can stop oxygen from being sucked into the fermenter because of the crash, yes. Otherwise, no.

I don't crash, I just add some sugar together with the hops to make the year scavenge the oxygen I introduced during hopping. Then, two or three days and it's good.

 

[jlash630]

If you can stop oxygen from being sucked into the fermenter because of the crash, yes. Otherwise, no.

I don't crash, I just add some sugar together with the hops to make the year scavenge the oxygen I introduced during hopping. Then, two or three days and it's good.

My method for dry hopping was to wait until active fermentation was complete, then i would hook up my gas manifold and as i opened the 1.5 TC fitting, i would flow some gas as i was dumping the hops. then i would close the cap and continue to blow some gas out through the blow off.. let it sit for 4 or 5 days, then pull the blow off, pressure up to 5psi and crash..

should i just crash it per normal procedure, then after a couple days of crashing, vent the pressure, open fermenter, apply gas for a positive pressure in the headspace, add hops, vent head space to remove any possible air, then close and pressure back up to 5psi?

 

[Miraculix]

My method for dry hopping was to wait until active fermentation was complete, then i would hook up my gas manifold and as i opened the 1.5 TC fitting, i would flow some gas as i was dumping the hops. then i would close the cap and continue to blow some gas out through the blow off.. let it sit for 4 or 5 days, then pull the blow off, pressure up to 5psi and crash..

should i just crash it per normal procedure, then after a couple days of crashing, vent the pressure, open fermenter, apply gas for a positive pressure in the headspace, add hops, vent head space to remove any possible air, then close and pressure back up to 5psi?

I have honestly no idea how to prevent oxygen ingress the best way while dry hopping with a presurised system. I never used one, sorry.

 

[CyberFox]

The best strategy for using hops is kind of hard to pin down (when to add, how much, what temperature, etc.). For IPAs, what seems to work best for most is to add hops after the boil and during dry hop. Then you have to figure out how much to use, at what temperatures, and how long. So many variables.

According to recipes I've found from Sapwood Cellars (Janish's brewery), he does not seem to go by his own rules in regards to hop amounts. He seems to use at least twice the amount he considers the saturation point. Not sure why he would do this if it was just a waste of hops and didn't contribute anything to the beer, but I find that interesting.

I also find it interesting that many famous breweries still dry hop near room temperature for 4-10 days. Treehouse, Other Half, Alchemist, Russian River, Fort George, Great Notion, and others come to mind. Their beers are most definitely saturated with hops. Not sure why they would dry hop at those temperatures for that length of time if it didn't work. Janish claims that dry hopping at higher temperatures leads to astringent or vegetal flavors/aromas. On the other hand, I've also heard that dry hopping at colder temperatures leads to grassy, woody, or vegetal flavors/aromas. Weird.

I've heard that some breweries, and people on this forum, say that dry hopping at cooler temperatures didn't give them the results they wanted. At the same time, I've also heard others say that it did. A person would just need to try it themselves.

My method for dry hopping was to wait until active fermentation was complete, then i would hook up my gas manifold and as i opened the 1.5 TC fitting, i would flow some gas as i was dumping the hops. then i would close the cap and continue to blow some gas out through the blow off.. let it sit for 4 or 5 days, then pull the blow off, pressure up to 5psi and crash..

should i just crash it per normal procedure, then after a couple days of crashing, vent the pressure, open fermenter, apply gas for a positive pressure in the headspace, add hops, vent head space to remove any possible air, then close and pressure back up to 5psi?

That's the way I do it and I don't think you could do any better to mitigate oxygen than using that process. You pressurize while cold crashing to prevent the vacuum, you inject gas in the headspace while adding hops, and you vent the headspace after adding them. That's about as good as it gets.

Some cold crash before adding hops to drop yeast before dry hopping (not sure if necessary) and others dry hop and cold crash at the same time. Either way should work. My only concern is that the hops would sink instead of float. Some swear that they need to be floating to get maximum extraction, but that's pretty much impossible with dry hopping cold. Either it doesn't matter if they sink or they were right. There's one way to find out.

 

[Miraculix]

I would probably just still add a bit of sugar, together with the hops, just to erase whatever amount of oxygen could still be introduced during the dry hopping. Not sure if that would make a real difference in most cases, but at least it sets my mind at ease saying "ok, you did all that you could, now we can wait".

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

For the most aroma in my NEIPAs, I like to add a late kettle addition, a whirlpool addition after flameout, and a dry hop addition near the end of active fermentation.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

According to this article about Shellhammer's well-known research on dry hopping, he came to the conclusion that anything over 1.1 oz/gal (5.5 oz per 5 gallon batch) was an inefficient use of hops. He also found that citrus aromas were maxed out at 0.55 oz/gal (2.75 oz per 5 gallon batch) and anything beyond that amount resulted in increasing herbal/tea aromas.

Hats off to Shellhammer and what he has done for brewing...but did you actually read the study? It seems to be the most mis-quoted study ever done. Actual article:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jib.517

The beer they used was a 4.75% ABV using a Pale Ale style grain bill (86% pale two-row, 13.5% Caramel 10°L and 0.5% Caramel 120°L malt). The OG was 11.3°P (1.045). The yeast used was Scottish ale yeast (Wyeast 1728). The beer had no hops added before the dry hop, but was bittered to 19.8 BU with "iso-humulones" (whatever that is). The beer then got a single addition of Cascade hops. I also believe they did not even taste the final beers, just evaluated the aroma.

From that, somehow people have decided that it is a waste to add more than 5.5 oz of hops to a 7% NEIPA loaded with Oats & Wheat, fermented with London Ale III, using Citra and Mosaic?? Yeah, a dry hop of more than 5.5 oz of Cascade in a low ABV Pale Ale does sound like a bad idea.

I don't have any hard data to contradict Shellhammer when it comes to brewing IPAs and NEIPAs. There is definitely diminishing returns when it comes to hops. 2 oz does not give twice as much hop character as 1 oz, and 4 oz does not give twice as much as 2 oz. I have found that I get more hop character with an 8 oz dry hop than with a 6 oz dry hop. There are plenty of commercial breweries and homebrewers of NEIPAs that use more than that 8 oz rate (though personally I don't care a ton for really hop saturated hop flavors in a beer).

If you like really hop saturated NEIPAs like places like Fidens or Monkish turn out, you will not get there with 3 oz of dry hops, or with 5.5 oz.

If you are interested in learning more about NEIPAs, there are some people with a ton of experience that chat over on this thread. It is a VERY long post, but reading the last dozen or so pages might be enough to get caught up:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/northeast-style-ipa.568046/

 

[CyberFox]

Hats off to Shellhammer and what he has done for brewing...but did you actually read the study? It seems to be the most mis-quoted study ever done. Actual article:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jib.517

The beer they used was a 4.75% ABV using a Pale Ale style grain bill (86% pale two-row, 13.5% Caramel 10°L and 0.5% Caramel 120°L malt). The OG was 11.3°P (1.045). The yeast used was Scottish ale yeast (Wyeast 1728). The beer had no hops added before the dry hop, but was bittered to 19.8 BU with "iso-humulones" (whatever that is). The beer then got a single addition of Cascade hops. I also believe they did not even taste the final beers, just evaluated the aroma.

From that, somehow people have decided that it is a waste to add more than 5.5 oz of hops to a 7% NEIPA loaded with Oats & Wheat, fermented with London Ale III, using Citra and Mosaic?? Yeah, a dry hop of more than 5.5 oz of Cascade in a low ABV Pale Ale does sound like a bad idea.

I don't have any hard data to contradict Shellhammer when it comes to brewing IPAs and NEIPAs. There is definitely diminishing returns when it comes to hops. 2 oz does not give twice as much hop character as 1 oz, and 4 oz does not give twice as much as 2 oz. I have found that I get more hop character with an 8 oz dry hop than with a 6 oz dry hop. There are plenty of commercial breweries and homebrewers of NEIPAs that use more than that 8 oz rate (though personally I don't care a ton for really hop saturated hop flavors in a beer).

If you like really hop saturated NEIPAs like places like Fidens or Monkish turn out, you will not get there with 3 oz of dry hops, or with 5.5 oz.

If you are interested in learning more about NEIPAs, there are some people with a ton of experience that chat over on this thread. It is a VERY long post, but reading the last dozen or so pages might be enough to get caught up:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/northeast-style-ipa.568046/

Yeah, I guess the study must have been misinterpreted. Good to know. It's still interesting that Janish determined that roughly 3.5 oz of hops per 5 gallon batch was the saturation point. Maybe that was misinterpreted too? Either way, it makes sense that breweries are using the higher hop amounts because it just works. Otherwise, they would be wasting a ton of money on hops and wasting lots of beer (due to hop absorption) for no reason.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

It's still interesting that Janish determined that roughly 3.5 oz of hops per 5 gallon batch was the saturation point.

I would have to see where he said that. Like you mentioned, Sapwood Cellars dry hops at higher rates. I believe I heard on a recent podcast where Scott said they were dry hopping pretty cold (maybe around 40F) but they also rouse the hops with CO2. I have found that when dry hopping below around 55F, the hops just sink to the bottom.

There is a pretty long and dense paper at this page that is fairly recent...2021, but info seems to change fast when it comes to hops:
http://scottjanish.com/dry-hop-best...s-a-guide-for-process-and-recipe-development/
Scott shows up on a lot of podcasts, but I think it was this recent interview that I am thinking about where he talked about the current process at Sapwood:
https://beerandbrewing.com/podcast-episode-270-scott-janish-and-mike-tonsmiere-of-sapwood-cellars/

 

[Miraculix]

I would have to see where he said that. Like you mentioned, Sapwood Cellars dry hops at higher rates. I believe I heard on a recent podcast where Scott said they were dry hopping pretty cold (maybe around 40F) but they also rouse the hops with CO2. I have found that when dry hopping below around 55F, the hops just sink to the bottom.

There is a pretty long and dense paper at this page that is fairly recent...2021, but info seems to change fast when it comes to hops:
http://scottjanish.com/dry-hop-best...s-a-guide-for-process-and-recipe-development/
Scott shows up on a lot of podcasts, but I think it was this recent interview that I am thinking about where he talked about the current process at Sapwood:
https://beerandbrewing.com/podcast-episode-270-scott-janish-and-mike-tonsmiere-of-sapwood-cellars/

It's from his book. If I remember it tonight I'll have a look into it and see if he also refers to this study or if there is additional information that would shine some light on the topic

 

[JAReeves]

I also have hooked up the CO2 to the valve at the bottom of the fermenter and run the gas while opening the lid to drop in hops. Until I build a proper hop torpedo for my little 5G system, this works well.