Most critical steps to produce the best tasting all grain beer?

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I don't understand those who think sanitation is not important. Talk to home brew competition judges. Fermentation temp for sure. Although yeast is ultra important, its almost a no brainier anymore with modern yeast packaging, unless you trying to make a 12%ABV beer. I've over sparged my RISs with astringent bitter flavor and thrown it all out. Letting beer ferment out is important. Water chemistry is important. Keep as much yeast out of suspension when transferring is important. Last but not least, recipe grain/hop percentage is important.
 
I don't understand those who think sanitation is not important. Talk to home brew competition judges. Fermentation temp for sure. Although yeast is ultra important, its almost a no brainier anymore with modern yeast packaging, unless you trying to make a 12%ABV beer. I've over sparged my RISs with astringent bitter flavor and thrown it all out. Letting beer ferment out is important. Water chemistry is important. Keep as much yeast out of suspension when transferring is important. Last but not least, recipe grain/hop percentage is important.

I think sanitation is important.

It's also just about the most basic thing about brewing.

When one asks the question "how do I make the BEST beer?" do you think that question is asked by someone who hasn't mastered the very most basic aspect of brewing beer?

Or let's say someone asks, "How can I make my beer even better?" This person is already presumably making decent beer, so we can all assume they know that sanitation is like the very most basic part of brewing beer.

Is the very most basic part of brewing beer not important? No, it's actually one of the VERY most important parts of brewing. But it's not the key to brewing "better" or the "best" beer. Because if you aren't sanitizing you are not making even mediocre beer, you're making garbage. Garbage. Pour it down the damn drain, you didn't even follow basic sanitation practices, beer.

So if someone comes here and asks "what do I need to do if I want to make beer?" then maybe one of the answers to that question is to sanitize. If the question is "How do I make the best beer?" then sanitation is a complete waste of every single person's time, because the person asking the question already knows that they need to sanitize. They aren't on day one of how to brew beer, they are wondering what the experienced brewers do differently that gets them the best results, and I'll tell you right now, it isn't that no one but the best are sanitizing. We should all be following basic sanitation practices. That's not what makes the difference between good and the best.

So let's be super clear, sanitation matters. We all do get that, right?

So should we continue to offer that as advice for people looking to move up from making good beer to making the best possible beer? No, we should stop. We should stop wasting our time, their time, and everyone reading along's time. It is not valuable advice in this context.
 
We should stop wasting our time, their time, and everyone reading along's time. It is not valuable advice in this context.
Well, if you want to be anal about it, the title was, "Most critical steps to produce the best tasting all grain beer?" Any steps that overlap between extract and all grain should be out of bounds. Only things specific to all grain are allowed.

Please people, try to keep all the valueless advise out of this thread. :rolleyes:



;)
 
Well, if you want to be anal about it, the title was, "Most critical steps to produce the best tasting all grain beer?" Any steps that overlap between extract and all grain should be out of bounds. Only things specific to all grain are allowed.

Please people, try to keep all the valueless advise out of this thread. :rolleyes:



;)

Why don't you think sanitation is important?
 
:mug:I simply, honestly, believe that good sanitation can't be overstated. Yes... Beer can be made with poor sanitation practices. It just won't be your best beer.

That said, I apologize for the quip. I shouldn't have tried to make my point, in that manner. Sometimes, on the internet, things come across much differently than they would in a casual conversation. If I have offended anybody, specifically you, Gameface, I honestly am sorry. Your input is needed, and appreciated. This is a community.

Mike
 
I don't understand those who think sanitation is not important. Talk to home brew competition judges. Fermentation temp for sure. Although yeast is ultra important, its almost a no brainier anymore with modern yeast packaging, unless you trying to make a 12%ABV beer. I've over sparged my RISs with astringent bitter flavor and thrown it all out. Letting beer ferment out is important. Water chemistry is important. Keep as much yeast out of suspension when transferring is important. Last but not least, recipe grain/hop percentage is important.


I think it's clear that sanitation is important. Just like using clean water and following recipe and weighing your grains, and not spitting inside your fermentation system and not slosh beer too much past fermentation - but sanitation is such a basic issue that I also think it doesn't belong in a list of most important next level improvements.

And I do agree it's somewhat binary issue. Sanitation is either a "dump the entire batch" problem or not a problem at all. In my experience cutting corners on sanitation will either produce a beer that is just as good as with perfect sanitation. OR it will be ruined by wild yeast and bacteria. So if you are producing not spoiled beers already this means you are already using sanitation practices that work.
 
I think it's clear that sanitation is important. Just like using clean water and following recipe and weighing your grains, and not spitting inside your fermentation system and not slosh beer too much past fermentation - but sanitation is such a basic issue that I also think it doesn't belong in a list of most important next level improvements.

And I do agree it's somewhat binary issue. Sanitation is either a "dump the entire batch" problem or not a problem at all. In my experience cutting corners on sanitation will either produce a beer that is just as good as with perfect sanitation. OR it will be ruined by wild yeast and bacteria. So if you are producing not spoiled beers already this means you are already using sanitation practices that work.

I still, respectfully, disagree. The bacterium, pediococcus, is known for forming diacetyl in beer. Beers that, otherwise, seem good. This is a sanitation issue. While I agree, that most people know that sanitation is important to prevent a total dumper... I am not convinced that all home brewers (and even commercial brewers) understand that subpar sanitation can (and does) make subtle changes to their brew that can make it less than their best. Last summer I had a pale ale, from a small craft brewery, that had obvious diacetyl aroma and flavor. This possibly could have been a fermentation issue. But, it could have, just as easily, been a sanitation issue.
Also.... One could argue that seasoned home brewers know that water chemistry and fermentation temperatures are important to basic beer. So, I am a bit confused as to why people are hung up on someone saying sanitation is an important factor in making one's best beer?
It is a good thread, tho. It has gotten us all to think about the important aspects of brewing. :mug:

Mike
 
I still, respectfully, disagree. The bacterium, pediococcus, is known for forming diacetyl in beer. Beers that, otherwise, seem good. This is a sanitation issue. While I agree, that most people know that sanitation is important to prevent a total dumper... I am not convinced that all home brewers (and even commercial brewers) understand that subpar sanitation can (and does) make subtle changes to their brew that can make it less than their best. Last summer I had a pale ale, from a small craft brewery, that had obvious diacetyl aroma and flavor. This possibly could have been a fermentation issue. But, it could have, just as easily, been a sanitation issue.
Also.... One could argue that seasoned home brewers know that water chemistry and fermentation temperatures are important to basic beer. So, I am a bit confused as to why people are hung up on someone saying sanitation is an important factor in making one's best beer?
It is a good thread, tho. It has gotten us all to think about the important aspects of brewing. :mug:

Mike

I am willing to bet that vast majority (90%+) of clear diacetyl cases are from lack of temperature control (or not leaving it alone for long enough), and NOT from pediococus or lactobacillus. Finally, healthy yeast (especially with starter) should have no problem winning over anything wild.

Again, I am not arguing against importance of sanititation. I just think this is so basic that should be omitted for majority of home brewers who look for "extra umphh" advanced methods for their all-grain beer.

Ok, but having said that, my opinion is that most people obsess about sanitation while neglecting a lot of important factors and techniques - most very simple - that could make their beers much, much better.

For example, a lot of people for some reason think you need tens of minutes if not hours for starsan contact to sanitize everything (instead of just 20-30 seconds) and have a total freak out followed by a meltdown if god forbid a leaf or a bug falls into their boiling wort (something that happened to me recently while I was brewing with two friends and they totally freaked out!), paranoid about hot side aeration and smallest amount of hot break making it into their fermenter, or agonize and obsess about why their efficiency is 68% instead of 80% or 85% (rather than buying an extra 1lb of 2-row for 99 cents)

- yet at the same will ferment too warm without temperature control (or pitch small amounts of old yeast in too hot of a wort), never bother to use a hydrometer (two weeks and it should be ready, right?) or even thermometer for that matter, never document anything, do not cold-crash, store their hops and yeast warm, try to get ALL beer into packaging, including some of the yeast cake, never use fining agents and store beer/fermenters in areas that are too warm and exposed to light, or try to cheap out on ingredients and equipment - and then wonder why their beer tastes and looks bad.
 
I am willing to bet that vast majority (90%+) of clear diacetyl cases are from lack of temperature control (or not leaving it alone for long enough), and NOT from pediococus or lactobacillus. Finally, healthy yeast (especially with starter) should have no problem winning over anything wild.

Again, I am not arguing against importance of sanititation. I just think this is so basic that should be omitted for majority of home brewers who look for "extra umphh" advanced methods for their all-grain beer.

Ok, but having said that, my opinion is that most people obsess about sanitation while neglecting a lot of important factors and techniques - most very simple - that could make their beers much, much better.

For example, a lot of people for some reason think you need tens of minutes if not hours for starsan contact to sanitize everything (instead of just 20-30 seconds) and have a total freak out followed by a meltdown if god forbid a leaf or a bug falls into their boiling wort (something that happened to me recently while I was brewing with two friends and they totally freaked out!), paranoid about hot side aeration and smallest amount of hot break making it into their fermenter, or agonize and obsess about why their efficiency is 68% instead of 80% or 85% (rather than buying an extra 1lb of 2-row for 99 cents)

- yet at the same will ferment too warm without temperature control (or pitch small amounts of old yeast in too hot of a wort), never bother to use a hydrometer (two weeks and it should be ready, right?) or even thermometer for that matter, never document anything, do not cold-crash, store their hops and yeast warm, try to get ALL beer into packaging, including some of the yeast cake, never use fining agents and store beer/fermenters in areas that are too warm and exposed to light, or try to cheap out on ingredients and equipment - and then wonder why their beer tastes and looks bad.

I agree with so much of what you say! All of those things are important. But, by the same token, if one freaks out if they ferment one degree high, yet neglect proper sanitation, we are back to the same problem. So, why is it that one should be considered, when discussing making the best beer one can make, while the other is silly to even mention?

And I, honestly, do not know what percentage of diacety inflicted beers are from improper fermentation vs infection. I do suspect that the majority of it would be from fermentation temperatures. But, my point was (and is) that meticulous fermentation does matter.

And yeah... We do get lucky, sometimes, and make a good beer even with mistakes. I once had a moth land in my freshly cooled wort. No issues. But, I also once had my electricity go out, while I was out of town, and fermented a pale ale way too high. Again, it turned out fine. I never look gifted luck in the mouth! But, I would rather make my own luck by attempting to control both of these factors. :)

Mike

:mug:
 
I agree with so much of what you say! All of those things are important. But, by the same token, if one freaks out if they ferment one degree high, yet neglect proper sanitation, we are back to the same problem. So, why is it that one should be considered, when discussing making the best beer one can make, while the other is silly to even mention?

And I, honestly, do not know what percentage of diacety inflicted beers are from improper fermentation vs infection. I do suspect that the majority of it would be from fermentation temperatures. But, my point was (and is) that meticulous fermentation does matter.

And yeah... We do get lucky, sometimes, and make a good beer even with mistakes. I once had a moth land in my freshly cooled wort. No issues. But, I also once had my electricity go out, while I was out of town, and fermented a pale ale way too high. Again, it turned out fine. I never look gifted luck in the mouth! But, I would rather make my own luck by attempting to control both of these factors. :)

Mike

:mug:

I agree with your point as well - especially about people who obsess over 1 degree difference in fermentation.

I do think that sanitation belongs to "basics" and "temperature controlled fermentation" or "decoction" or "batch- or fly-sparging" or "yeast starters" belong in advanced (or at least intermediate level) discussions.

In other words, I doubt there is any brewer out there who does not use any sanitation at all, or never heard of Starsan. So if anyone cutting any corners, they are aware of it already. However, a lot of people underestimate or disregard many other important issues - like yeast health or fermentation temperature.

Finally, I still think there are more black-white issues - if you screw up big time on sanitation, the outcomes are usually pretty obvious (like bacteria pellicles growing on top of your beer - you know exactly what went wrong there). While other issues are more difficult to pin down - like off-tastes etc. - which could be due to dozens of various factors.
 
I agree with your point as well - especially about people who obsess over 1 degree difference in fermentation.

I do think that sanitation belongs to "basics" and "temperature controlled fermentation" or "decoction" or "batch- or fly-sparging" or "yeast starters" belong in advanced (or at least intermediate level) discussions.

In other words, I doubt there is any brewer out there who does not use any sanitation at all, or never heard of Starsan. So if anyone cutting any corners, they are aware of it already. However, a lot of people underestimate or disregard many other important issues - like yeast health or fermentation temperature.

Finally, I still think there are more black-white issues - if you screw up big time on sanitation, the outcomes are usually pretty obvious (like bacteria pellicles growing on top of your beer - you know exactly what went wrong there). While other issues are more difficult to pin down - like off-tastes etc. - which could be due to dozens of various factors.

I hear you. But... I firmly believe that many people (even experienced brewers) do not understand what sanitation means. Clean/ sanitized/ sterilized. These are all very different things. So, stressing the importance of sanitation is important. Ask a group of home brewers what is important, to make a beer better, and a good number of them will answer: sanitation. Oh, wait... That is just what this thread did. I rest....

Mike
 
Tour a commercial brewery, they will take you into the grain grinding areas, into the mashing areas, into the warehouse after packaging... you won't get near the fermenters or bottling line in may of them because they don't want you bringing in some wild yeast or bug they now have to eradicate.

Sanitation is priority for them!
 
I still, respectfully, disagree. The bacterium, pediococcus, is known for forming diacetyl in beer. Beers that, otherwise, seem good. This is a sanitation issue. While I agree, that most people know that sanitation is important to prevent a total dumper... I am not convinced that all home brewers (and even commercial brewers) understand that subpar sanitation can (and does) make subtle changes to their brew that can make it less than their best. Last summer I had a pale ale, from a small craft brewery, that had obvious diacetyl aroma and flavor. This possibly could have been a fermentation issue. But, it could have, just as easily, been a sanitation issue.

Funny you say this since I'm battling an, apparent, diacetyl issue which forms a week or so after kegging. Only with dipas. Stouts, imperial stouts/RIS, ipas, and hard Lemonaids are clean. I use the same cleanliness/sanitation procedures for all brews. IDK...

In reference to other posts, I temp control all beer brews. This next dipa attempt will be cold crashed, my first attempt, starting tomorrow. This, I hopes, is the nail in the coffin. Would love get to point where I'm just working on recipes...
 
Funny you say this since I'm battling an, apparent, diacetyl issue which forms a week or so after kegging. Only with dipas. Stouts, imperial stouts/RIS, ipas, and hard Lemonaids are clean. I use the same cleanliness/sanitation procedures for all brews. IDK...

In reference to other posts, I temp control all beer brews. This next dipa attempt will be cold crashed, my first attempt, starting tomorrow. This, I hopes, is the nail in the coffin. Would love get to point where I'm just working on recipes...

That is interesting. Let us know if/ when you figure it out.

Mike

:mug:
 
Top five. .

1 Cleaning / Sanitizing
2 Fermentation Control
3 Happy and healthy yeast army
4 Water Chemistry / Water knowledge
 
1. Water chemistry - beer is mostly water, why wouldn't you treat it with the same diligence as the grains/hops you choose?

2. Keeping grain bills simple - I think people try to out-think the room too often with the grain bill. Less is usually more.

3. Ferm temperature control - Fermenting most beers at room temperature is a big no-no
 
The real most critical steps are:

Recipe (no one wants to say it, but yeah)

Fermentation temp control, usually aim for the ultra low end of the yeast's temp range, or below, and support yeast growth and fermentation at that ultra low temp through pure O2 oxygenation, more than the recommended number of yeast cells to start, and ramping the temp as yeast activity slows.

For the actual all grain part, get a mill and mill your grains just before mashing. Use good water. Know your pH. Adjust your pH if it is not in the range you want it, you can use acidulated malt or lactic acid, or use RO water and build your water profile to fit your needs.

Efficiency is good, but it's not part of the best tasting all grain beer discussion. Consistency is more important so that you can make predictable adjustments from one batch to the next. This is where having your own mill is pretty important.

And if you do all that and your beer gets infected...look into your sanitation practices. And in case you, a person looking to make "the best tasting all grain beer" don't already know, you need to follow basic sanitation practices on the cold side of brewing because you have a substance that will be stored for a considerable amount of time and can develop bacterial infections if you're not careful. Not really the difference between mediocre all grain and the very best all grain at all. Mostly the difference between drinkable beer and undrinkable beer, so since drinkable beer falls into the "best tasting" beer category, yes, you do need to be sanitary.

I am with you most of the way - recipe is super-important, so are basic sanitation and temp control.

But - having your own mill? Also you don't really need to mill "just before brewing". Milled grain doesn't really go bad overnight.

Pure O2 oxygenation and pH adjustments? More than recommended yeast cells?

You can make a fantastic beers using your LHBS mill, oxygenating by 1) making a started and 2) shaking the fermenter.

You can make a starter of active, healthy yeast and pitch the recommended amount.

It's important to know your water and its weak points, but I suspect for most people just cutting the water with some RO water is sufficient to get 95% there. If you understand pH adjustments and can do them with confidence - good for you, but for the most part they can easily backfire for most people, who would struggle with even calibrating pH meter on daily basis, never mind figuring out the buffer properties of their water with some salts and acids added.

I would say freshness (or proper storage) of hops is much more important than freshness of milled grain. Simply filtering your water through carbon filter (to remove chlorine) is a major step that most brewers I know don't even do.

Once one has basic sanitation techniques (like diluting starsan in water at proper concentration and dipping/washing everything in it for 30 seconds), proper post-boil beer transfer skills are much more important than whatever gains you get from extra-sanitation efforts or worrying about trub getting into the fermenter or tiny bit of hot-side areation.

Making a fresh, active, oxygenated starter instead of repitching on a yeast cake full of dead yeast makes a lot more sense to me.

Good quality ingredients, interesting and well-designed recipes, yeast health and proper (fairly basic) tools and techniques, plus some good amount of caring, thinking and understanding the processes involved will go a long way.
 
I am with you most of the way - recipe is super-important, so are basic sanitation and temp control.

But - having your own mill? Also you don't really need to mill "just before brewing". Milled grain doesn't really go bad overnight.

Pure O2 oxygenation and pH adjustments? More than recommended yeast cells?

You can make a fantastic beers using your LHBS mill, oxygenating by 1) making a started and 2) shaking the fermenter.

You can make a starter of active, healthy yeast and pitch the recommended amount.

It's important to know your water and its weak points, but I suspect for most people just cutting the water with some RO water is sufficient to get 95% there. If you understand pH adjustments and can do them with confidence - good for you, but for the most part they can easily backfire for most people, who would struggle with even calibrating pH meter on daily basis, never mind figuring out the buffer properties of their water with some salts and acids added.

I would say freshness (or proper storage) of hops is much more important than freshness of milled grain. Simply filtering your water through carbon filter (to remove chlorine) is a major step that most brewers I know don't even do.

Once one has basic sanitation techniques (like diluting starsan in water at proper concentration and dipping/washing everything in it for 30 seconds), proper post-boil beer transfer skills are much more important than whatever gains you get from extra-sanitation efforts or worrying about trub getting into the fermenter or tiny bit of hot-side areation.

Making a fresh, active, oxygenated starter instead of repitching on a yeast cake full of dead yeast makes a lot more sense to me.

Good quality ingredients, interesting and well-designed recipes, yeast health and proper (fairly basic) tools and techniques, plus some good amount of caring, thinking and understanding the processes involved will go a long way.

I agree with you. I was pointing out methods that help to brew beer below the manufacturer's recommended fermentation temps. I brew most of my beers colder than the temps listed by the manufacturer.

I don't think there is some sort of perfect way to brew beer. I do it my way. It works for me.
 
I agree with you. I was pointing out methods that help to brew beer below the manufacturer's recommended fermentation temps. I brew most of my beers colder than the temps listed by the manufacturer.

I don't think there is some sort of perfect way to brew beer. I do it my way. It works for me.

Actually as I read my own post (posted late last night) I think I agree with you even more!

Obviously controlling water pH and mineral content will benefit the taste of the final beer a great deal - we all know this. Controlling your own milling and other processes will make a big difference as well - make efficiency more consistent/predictable and avoid stuck sparging.

it's just that in my personal priority list, I feel a lot of people neglect more basic practices, and obsess over more complex practices that should only be pursued once 99% of other parameters are dialed in.

I think you hit the nail on the head about importance of understanding the recipes. I am re-reading "Mastering Homebrew" by Randy Mosher and it's amazing how well he explains the basics of recipe building. Everyone ought to read that book.

I will bet that 95% of home brewers just blindly follow some random recipes they found online without even thinking about what that crystal/caramel malts are there for (I know this because I was one of them, and maybe still am!)

Never mind Rye, Wheat, sugar or "candi sugar", Pilsner vs. Pale Ale vs. Vienna vs. Munich Malts.

Same applies to hops, to a much greater degree, and yeast.
 
Actually as I read my own post (posted late last night) I think I agree with you even more!

Obviously controlling water pH and mineral content will benefit the taste of the final beer a great deal - we all know this. Controlling your own milling and other processes will make a big difference as well - make efficiency more consistent/predictable and avoid stuck sparging.

it's just that in my personal priority list, I feel a lot of people neglect more basic practices, and obsess over more complex practices that should only be pursued once 99% of other parameters are dialed in.

I think you hit the nail on the head about importance of understanding the recipes. I am re-reading "Mastering Homebrew" by Randy Mosher and it's amazing how well he explains the basics of recipe building. Everyone ought to read that book.

I will bet that 95% of home brewers just blindly follow some random recipes they found online without even thinking about what that crystal/caramel malts are there for (I know this because I was one of them, and maybe still am!)

Never mind Rye, Wheat, sugar or "candi sugar", Pilsner vs. Pale Ale vs. Vienna vs. Munich Malts.

Same applies to hops, to a much greater degree, and yeast.

I was actually thinking about my response to you today and thought about coming back to say that milling your own grain is a good thing in a lot of ways, but it's not this big thing that makes your beer better all by itself. Crushed grain isn't going bad in a day or two, or even in a week or two. Obviously freshness is good, but I don't think it makes a noticeable difference unless the crushed grains are several months old. Having control over your crush is a good thing, no doubt, but if you're dialed in for your LHBS crush, and that's working for you then you're good there.

I like having my own mill. It's one of my favorite pieces of brewing equipment. Being able to buy sacks of base grain has paid for my mill several times over. And being in control of that part of the process is something I can't imagine going without. But, I realize it's more about control and much much less about quality.
 
But you have to keep in mind that not everybody knows the difference between the words clean, sanitized and sterile. It is such an important part of the home brew process. Many years ago, things were probably only clean. And, I bet it made the beer taste different than good beer does, today.

Mike

Meh. I stopped stressing about sanitation a long time ago. Sure I wash my stuff and rinse my fermenter with sanitizer before fermentation but thats about it. I'm finding that those yeast thingies are pretty fierce and tend to kill off most other stuff in the beer. It's actually pretty hard to screw up a batch. Much more important are mash conditions (temp/ph) and ferm temps. Also, pitching the right amount of good healthy yeast is a must.
 
I was actually thinking about my response to you today and thought about coming back to say that milling your own grain is a good thing in a lot of ways, but it's not this big thing that makes your beer better all by itself. Crushed grain isn't going bad in a day or two, or even in a week or two. Obviously freshness is good, but I don't think it makes a noticeable difference unless the crushed grains are several months old. Having control over your crush is a good thing, no doubt, but if you're dialed in for your LHBS crush, and that's working for you then you're good there.

I like having my own mill. It's one of my favorite pieces of brewing equipment. Being able to buy sacks of base grain has paid for my mill several times over. And being in control of that part of the process is something I can't imagine going without. But, I realize it's more about control and much much less about quality.

any time you can control ANY variable over your brew process is a good thing. Including milling. My only point is that at least a dozen other factors would have to take precedence over milling - factors that are often ignored.

We all need to prioritize at some point and milling is not among the top 10 things that affect my brewing, especially if I am willing to pay $1 extra for base malt to boost my efficiency up 10% or more. And any problem that you are investing in $100's and that can be solved by paying $1 extra is not worth worrying much about, in my opinion.
 
it's already been said but here is mine.

water chem/mash pH.
proper pitch rates
ferm temp
dialing in your system so you get the correct volumes. I use to think that it was ok to have 5.5gal in my fermenter when my recipe was for 5gal...my gravity was always low. if you want 5.5gal in your fermenter, make sure your recipe reflects the increase in volume (this may not be the case for all brewers, but in my case making sure I had Beersmith set up to reflect my equipment/processes was key to hitting my numbers). So if I'm making a 5 gal batch...5gal goes into my fermenter.
 
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