Most critical steps to produce the best tasting all grain beer?

[Gameface]

Sanitation doesn't make beer taste better.

Sanitation is a pass or fail issue. If your beer is infected then it's not just not as good as it could be, it's pretty much garbage.

Sanitation goes without saying. To mention it in regard to making the BEST tasting beer is silly. If you're making pretty good beer there's nothing about sanitation that's gonna make your beer the "best."

 

[Horseshoot]

Sanitation doesn't make beer taste better.

Sanitation is a pass of fail issue. If your beer is infected then it's not just not as good as it could be, it's pretty much garbage.

Sanitation goes without saying. To mention it in regard to making the BEST tasting beer is silly. If you're making pretty good beer there's nothing about sanitation that's gonna make your beer the "best."

Not true. Poor sanitation can cause off flavors, without making a beer undrinkable. And sanitation and cleaning involves beer lines as well. I have had beer in bars that do not pay much attention to their beer lines. The beer was off. Not nasty. But certainly off. And these were beers that I had had in other bars, that were previously very nice. Sanitation is important. Never silly.

Mike

 

[Gameface]

Not true. Poor sanitation can cause off flavors, without making a beer undrinkable. And sanitation and cleaning involves beer lines as well. I have had beer in bars that do not pay much attention to their beer lines. The beer was off. Not nasty. But certainly off. And these were beers that I had had in other bars, that were previously very nice. Sanitation is important. Never silly.

Mike

I honestly probably should have just left it alone. I just think it's strange that cleanliness and sanitation are stressed as though it's some odd thing to clean and sanitize the stuff that comes into contact with something you're going to consume.

It's like if someone was asking what they can do to make the best beef stew and everyone tells them the most important thing is to make sure your pot is clean. As if that's advice for making the best beef stew. That's what separates so-so beef stew from really really good beef stew. Because so many people who endeavor to make the "best" beef stew are making the mistake of cooking their stew in a pot they made chile in a week and a half ago and never even rinsed it out.

If there's a brewer out there that isn't aware that you need to clean and sanitize your brewing gear, well I'm going to guess they aren't on homebrewtalk asking how to make the very best beer possible.

 

[Horseshoot]

But you have to keep in mind that not everybody knows the difference between the words clean, sanitized and sterile. It is such an important part of the home brew process. Many years ago, things were probably only clean. And, I bet it made the beer taste different than good beer does, today.

Mike

 

[Dcpcooks]

Fermentor temp control
Water
Yeast health and pitch
Mash temp control
Sanitation

 

[brewmeister13]

Saw a guy do this on Youtube I think except he also purged his tank with CO2 before adding the beer through the liquid out line. He had to purge a few times as he was doing it I seem to remember too. I'm new to kegging and thought this was a little too labour intensive for my liking so I rack directly into the empty keg through the lid then fill and burp the oxygen out at the end. Seems to work fine for me.

It's actually not that hard. In fact, I think this is easier than regular gravity transfer. I just grab my trusty cap with a racking cane in the center and a CO2 inlet, pop it on and turn the CO2 as low as it goes. No lifting the carboy out of the chest freezer and stirring up the sediment, especially nice when dry hopping, and no O2 exposure. I do purge my keg 1st and run starsan out, but you should sanitize the keg anyway, so I don't see this as an extra step.

 

[eric19312]

I'm in the
Sanitation
Fermentation Termperature Control
Yeast health
Being 1-3. What is interesting is these are same 1-3 for making the best tasting extract beer. If you get good at these brewing extract before switching to AG then you can spend most of your time worrying about getting mash temp and water chemistry just right.

 

[Gameface]

The real most critical steps are:

Recipe (no one wants to say it, but yeah)

Fermentation temp control, usually aim for the ultra low end of the yeast's temp range, or below, and support yeast growth and fermentation at that ultra low temp through pure O2 oxygenation, more than the recommended number of yeast cells to start, and ramping the temp as yeast activity slows.

For the actual all grain part, get a mill and mill your grains just before mashing. Use good water. Know your pH. Adjust your pH if it is not in the range you want it, you can use acidulated malt or lactic acid, or use RO water and build your water profile to fit your needs.

Efficiency is good, but it's not part of the best tasting all grain beer discussion. Consistency is more important so that you can make predictable adjustments from one batch to the next. This is where having your own mill is pretty important.

And if you do all that and your beer gets infected...look into your sanitation practices. And in case you, a person looking to make "the best tasting all grain beer" don't already know, you need to follow basic sanitation practices on the cold side of brewing because you have a substance that will be stored for a considerable amount of time and can develop bacterial infections if you're not careful. Not really the difference between mediocre all grain and the very best all grain at all. Mostly the difference between drinkable beer and undrinkable beer, so since drinkable beer falls into the "best tasting" beer category, yes, you do need to be sanitary.

 

[ChelisHubby]

THings must be clean and sanitary is a small improvement. next the Fermentation tempature Check out what others have said about the yeast you are thinking about using.. Now the amount of yeast does matter but this iss not a huge deal breaker for good beer. Also I am sure if you live where you water is poor quality then you need to deal with water chemistry. Last but not least a simple recipe is usually easier to make taste well than a coconut oaked vanilla coffee barley wine. If you want a beer with more than 8 % alc use a kit or a tried and true recipe the first time. The KISS principle works when you are new at brewing. PS I am a new brewer only brewing for 18 months so I know just enough to really mess it up.

 

[Gameface]

Acting like you can make incremental improvements to your beer through increased sanitation is like saying you can get a little more or a little less pregnant depending on how much birth control you use.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

I don't understand those who think sanitation is not important. Talk to home brew competition judges. Fermentation temp for sure. Although yeast is ultra important, its almost a no brainier anymore with modern yeast packaging, unless you trying to make a 12%ABV beer. I've over sparged my RISs with astringent bitter flavor and thrown it all out. Letting beer ferment out is important. Water chemistry is important. Keep as much yeast out of suspension when transferring is important. Last but not least, recipe grain/hop percentage is important.

 

[Gameface]

I don't understand those who think sanitation is not important. Talk to home brew competition judges. Fermentation temp for sure. Although yeast is ultra important, its almost a no brainier anymore with modern yeast packaging, unless you trying to make a 12%ABV beer. I've over sparged my RISs with astringent bitter flavor and thrown it all out. Letting beer ferment out is important. Water chemistry is important. Keep as much yeast out of suspension when transferring is important. Last but not least, recipe grain/hop percentage is important.

I think sanitation is important.

It's also just about the most basic thing about brewing.

When one asks the question "how do I make the BEST beer?" do you think that question is asked by someone who hasn't mastered the very most basic aspect of brewing beer?

Or let's say someone asks, "How can I make my beer even better?" This person is already presumably making decent beer, so we can all assume they know that sanitation is like the very most basic part of brewing beer.

Is the very most basic part of brewing beer not important? No, it's actually one of the VERY most important parts of brewing. But it's not the key to brewing "better" or the "best" beer. Because if you aren't sanitizing you are not making even mediocre beer, you're making garbage. Garbage. Pour it down the damn drain, you didn't even follow basic sanitation practices, beer.

So if someone comes here and asks "what do I need to do if I want to make beer?" then maybe one of the answers to that question is to sanitize. If the question is "How do I make the best beer?" then sanitation is a complete waste of every single person's time, because the person asking the question already knows that they need to sanitize. They aren't on day one of how to brew beer, they are wondering what the experienced brewers do differently that gets them the best results, and I'll tell you right now, it isn't that no one but the best are sanitizing. We should all be following basic sanitation practices. That's not what makes the difference between good and the best.

So let's be super clear, sanitation matters. We all do get that, right?

So should we continue to offer that as advice for people looking to move up from making good beer to making the best possible beer? No, we should stop. We should stop wasting our time, their time, and everyone reading along's time. It is not valuable advice in this context.

 

[AnOldUR]

We should stop wasting our time, their time, and everyone reading along's time. It is not valuable advice in this context.

Well, if you want to be anal about it, the title was, "Most critical steps to produce the best tasting all grain beer?" Any steps that overlap between extract and all grain should be out of bounds. Only things specific to all grain are allowed.

Please people, try to keep all the valueless advise out of this thread.

 

[Gameface]

Well, if you want to be anal about it, the title was, "Most critical steps to produce the best tasting all grain beer?" Any steps that overlap between extract and all grain should be out of bounds. Only things specific to all grain are allowed.

Please people, try to keep all the valueless advise out of this thread.

Why don't you think sanitation is important?

 

[Horseshoot]

Why don't you think sanitation is important?

I am guessing that you missed the point.

Mike

 

[Gameface]

I am guessing that you missed the point.

Mike

I'm responding to him the way I have been responded to many times in this thread. Yeah, missing the point, indeed.

 

[aeviaanah]

You guys are silly.

 

[Gameface]

You guys are silly.

I agree.

I apologize.

I'll leave this thread alone.

 

[Horseshoot]

I simply, honestly, believe that good sanitation can't be overstated. Yes... Beer can be made with poor sanitation practices. It just won't be your best beer.

That said, I apologize for the quip. I shouldn't have tried to make my point, in that manner. Sometimes, on the internet, things come across much differently than they would in a casual conversation. If I have offended anybody, specifically you, Gameface, I honestly am sorry. Your input is needed, and appreciated. This is a community.

Mike

 

[ballandkeg]

I second this. Made a world of difference to keep temps down in the mid 60's for fermentation.

 

[squaremile]

Def water chemistry, ferm temp control, and kegging.

 

[squaremile]

decoctions
anti-sweetness
zero boiling

Can you say more about anti sweetness and no boiling?

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

My next thread..."How do I make some good beer every once in a while?"

 

[55x11]

I don't understand those who think sanitation is not important. Talk to home brew competition judges. Fermentation temp for sure. Although yeast is ultra important, its almost a no brainier anymore with modern yeast packaging, unless you trying to make a 12%ABV beer. I've over sparged my RISs with astringent bitter flavor and thrown it all out. Letting beer ferment out is important. Water chemistry is important. Keep as much yeast out of suspension when transferring is important. Last but not least, recipe grain/hop percentage is important.

I think it's clear that sanitation is important. Just like using clean water and following recipe and weighing your grains, and not spitting inside your fermentation system and not slosh beer too much past fermentation - but sanitation is such a basic issue that I also think it doesn't belong in a list of most important next level improvements.

And I do agree it's somewhat binary issue. Sanitation is either a "dump the entire batch" problem or not a problem at all. In my experience cutting corners on sanitation will either produce a beer that is just as good as with perfect sanitation. OR it will be ruined by wild yeast and bacteria. So if you are producing not spoiled beers already this means you are already using sanitation practices that work.

 

[Horseshoot]

I think it's clear that sanitation is important. Just like using clean water and following recipe and weighing your grains, and not spitting inside your fermentation system and not slosh beer too much past fermentation - but sanitation is such a basic issue that I also think it doesn't belong in a list of most important next level improvements.

And I do agree it's somewhat binary issue. Sanitation is either a "dump the entire batch" problem or not a problem at all. In my experience cutting corners on sanitation will either produce a beer that is just as good as with perfect sanitation. OR it will be ruined by wild yeast and bacteria. So if you are producing not spoiled beers already this means you are already using sanitation practices that work.

I still, respectfully, disagree. The bacterium, pediococcus, is known for forming diacetyl in beer. Beers that, otherwise, seem good. This is a sanitation issue. While I agree, that most people know that sanitation is important to prevent a total dumper... I am not convinced that all home brewers (and even commercial brewers) understand that subpar sanitation can (and does) make subtle changes to their brew that can make it less than their best. Last summer I had a pale ale, from a small craft brewery, that had obvious diacetyl aroma and flavor. This possibly could have been a fermentation issue. But, it could have, just as easily, been a sanitation issue.
Also.... One could argue that seasoned home brewers know that water chemistry and fermentation temperatures are important to basic beer. So, I am a bit confused as to why people are hung up on someone saying sanitation is an important factor in making one's best beer?
It is a good thread, tho. It has gotten us all to think about the important aspects of brewing.

Mike

 

[55x11]

I still, respectfully, disagree. The bacterium, pediococcus, is known for forming diacetyl in beer. Beers that, otherwise, seem good. This is a sanitation issue. While I agree, that most people know that sanitation is important to prevent a total dumper... I am not convinced that all home brewers (and even commercial brewers) understand that subpar sanitation can (and does) make subtle changes to their brew that can make it less than their best. Last summer I had a pale ale, from a small craft brewery, that had obvious diacetyl aroma and flavor. This possibly could have been a fermentation issue. But, it could have, just as easily, been a sanitation issue.
Also.... One could argue that seasoned home brewers know that water chemistry and fermentation temperatures are important to basic beer. So, I am a bit confused as to why people are hung up on someone saying sanitation is an important factor in making one's best beer?
It is a good thread, tho. It has gotten us all to think about the important aspects of brewing.

Mike

I am willing to bet that vast majority (90%+) of clear diacetyl cases are from lack of temperature control (or not leaving it alone for long enough), and NOT from pediococus or lactobacillus. Finally, healthy yeast (especially with starter) should have no problem winning over anything wild.

Again, I am not arguing against importance of sanititation. I just think this is so basic that should be omitted for majority of home brewers who look for "extra umphh" advanced methods for their all-grain beer.

Ok, but having said that, my opinion is that most people obsess about sanitation while neglecting a lot of important factors and techniques - most very simple - that could make their beers much, much better.

For example, a lot of people for some reason think you need tens of minutes if not hours for starsan contact to sanitize everything (instead of just 20-30 seconds) and have a total freak out followed by a meltdown if god forbid a leaf or a bug falls into their boiling wort (something that happened to me recently while I was brewing with two friends and they totally freaked out!), paranoid about hot side aeration and smallest amount of hot break making it into their fermenter, or agonize and obsess about why their efficiency is 68% instead of 80% or 85% (rather than buying an extra 1lb of 2-row for 99 cents)

- yet at the same will ferment too warm without temperature control (or pitch small amounts of old yeast in too hot of a wort), never bother to use a hydrometer (two weeks and it should be ready, right?) or even thermometer for that matter, never document anything, do not cold-crash, store their hops and yeast warm, try to get ALL beer into packaging, including some of the yeast cake, never use fining agents and store beer/fermenters in areas that are too warm and exposed to light, or try to cheap out on ingredients and equipment - and then wonder why their beer tastes and looks bad.

 

[Horseshoot]

I am willing to bet that vast majority (90%+) of clear diacetyl cases are from lack of temperature control (or not leaving it alone for long enough), and NOT from pediococus or lactobacillus. Finally, healthy yeast (especially with starter) should have no problem winning over anything wild.

Again, I am not arguing against importance of sanititation. I just think this is so basic that should be omitted for majority of home brewers who look for "extra umphh" advanced methods for their all-grain beer.

Ok, but having said that, my opinion is that most people obsess about sanitation while neglecting a lot of important factors and techniques - most very simple - that could make their beers much, much better.

For example, a lot of people for some reason think you need tens of minutes if not hours for starsan contact to sanitize everything (instead of just 20-30 seconds) and have a total freak out followed by a meltdown if god forbid a leaf or a bug falls into their boiling wort (something that happened to me recently while I was brewing with two friends and they totally freaked out!), paranoid about hot side aeration and smallest amount of hot break making it into their fermenter, or agonize and obsess about why their efficiency is 68% instead of 80% or 85% (rather than buying an extra 1lb of 2-row for 99 cents)

- yet at the same will ferment too warm without temperature control (or pitch small amounts of old yeast in too hot of a wort), never bother to use a hydrometer (two weeks and it should be ready, right?) or even thermometer for that matter, never document anything, do not cold-crash, store their hops and yeast warm, try to get ALL beer into packaging, including some of the yeast cake, never use fining agents and store beer/fermenters in areas that are too warm and exposed to light, or try to cheap out on ingredients and equipment - and then wonder why their beer tastes and looks bad.

I agree with so much of what you say! All of those things are important. But, by the same token, if one freaks out if they ferment one degree high, yet neglect proper sanitation, we are back to the same problem. So, why is it that one should be considered, when discussing making the best beer one can make, while the other is silly to even mention?

And I, honestly, do not know what percentage of diacety inflicted beers are from improper fermentation vs infection. I do suspect that the majority of it would be from fermentation temperatures. But, my point was (and is) that meticulous fermentation does matter.

And yeah... We do get lucky, sometimes, and make a good beer even with mistakes. I once had a moth land in my freshly cooled wort. No issues. But, I also once had my electricity go out, while I was out of town, and fermented a pale ale way too high. Again, it turned out fine. I never look gifted luck in the mouth! But, I would rather make my own luck by attempting to control both of these factors.

Mike

 

[55x11]

I agree with so much of what you say! All of those things are important. But, by the same token, if one freaks out if they ferment one degree high, yet neglect proper sanitation, we are back to the same problem. So, why is it that one should be considered, when discussing making the best beer one can make, while the other is silly to even mention?

And I, honestly, do not know what percentage of diacety inflicted beers are from improper fermentation vs infection. I do suspect that the majority of it would be from fermentation temperatures. But, my point was (and is) that meticulous fermentation does matter.

And yeah... We do get lucky, sometimes, and make a good beer even with mistakes. I once had a moth land in my freshly cooled wort. No issues. But, I also once had my electricity go out, while I was out of town, and fermented a pale ale way too high. Again, it turned out fine. I never look gifted luck in the mouth! But, I would rather make my own luck by attempting to control both of these factors.

Mike

I agree with your point as well - especially about people who obsess over 1 degree difference in fermentation.

I do think that sanitation belongs to "basics" and "temperature controlled fermentation" or "decoction" or "batch- or fly-sparging" or "yeast starters" belong in advanced (or at least intermediate level) discussions.

In other words, I doubt there is any brewer out there who does not use any sanitation at all, or never heard of Starsan. So if anyone cutting any corners, they are aware of it already. However, a lot of people underestimate or disregard many other important issues - like yeast health or fermentation temperature.

Finally, I still think there are more black-white issues - if you screw up big time on sanitation, the outcomes are usually pretty obvious (like bacteria pellicles growing on top of your beer - you know exactly what went wrong there). While other issues are more difficult to pin down - like off-tastes etc. - which could be due to dozens of various factors.

 

[Horseshoot]

I agree with your point as well - especially about people who obsess over 1 degree difference in fermentation.

I do think that sanitation belongs to "basics" and "temperature controlled fermentation" or "decoction" or "batch- or fly-sparging" or "yeast starters" belong in advanced (or at least intermediate level) discussions.

In other words, I doubt there is any brewer out there who does not use any sanitation at all, or never heard of Starsan. So if anyone cutting any corners, they are aware of it already. However, a lot of people underestimate or disregard many other important issues - like yeast health or fermentation temperature.

Finally, I still think there are more black-white issues - if you screw up big time on sanitation, the outcomes are usually pretty obvious (like bacteria pellicles growing on top of your beer - you know exactly what went wrong there). While other issues are more difficult to pin down - like off-tastes etc. - which could be due to dozens of various factors.

I hear you. But... I firmly believe that many people (even experienced brewers) do not understand what sanitation means. Clean/ sanitized/ sterilized. These are all very different things. So, stressing the importance of sanitation is important. Ask a group of home brewers what is important, to make a beer better, and a good number of them will answer: sanitation. Oh, wait... That is just what this thread did. I rest....

Mike

 

[MaryB]

Tour a commercial brewery, they will take you into the grain grinding areas, into the mashing areas, into the warehouse after packaging... you won't get near the fermenters or bottling line in may of them because they don't want you bringing in some wild yeast or bug they now have to eradicate.

Sanitation is priority for them!