Moratorium for BJCP Winners?

[Edcculus]

If you have a beer from the same batch that can win multiple years in a row, then you deserve the win. Its probably big styles that need to be aged anyways. No way would his batch of Hefeweizen or even a run of the mill IPA (no matter how well brewed) would age gracefully over a year.

 

[mkling]

There's so much variation in how judges view beers, why not? I sure as hell would, just to get confirmation that, in fact, this WAS a great beer and I just didn't get lucky with the judging.

I think some people here are viewing judging as much less arbitrary than it often proves to be. Just because a beer DOESN'T win a medal doesn't tell you that it's crap. Some judges are better than others - and I've heard plenty of stories about judges who were absolutely clueless.

If you have what you think is a great recipe, and it wins one time... keep entering it and see how a different group of judges views it.

Besides, probably half of the battle is your processes, as much as the recipes. JZ wins his medals in no small part because of things like his temperature control and pitching rates. I can brew one of his winning recipes and it's not going to be as good (likely). So, why should he be forced to tweak a recipe when that's only half the reason he won?

Hey, I absolutely agree about entering the same recipe over & over -- you've got a good one, use it! To me, the weird part is entering the same batch that won across 2 or 3 or 4 years -- because then you actually don't have to see consistency of process; you just had to have a great process once.

 

[the_bird]

Yeah, except that beer's generally not going to get BETTER over time, unless it's a barleywine.

This all just sounds like someone who didn't place well in a competition and is looking for excuses. If your beer isn't "good enough" (said skeptically due to the known issues with judging), learn how to make better beer. Invest in a temp-controlled fermenter. Buy a stirplate and pitch more yeast. Age your beer longer. Cold-crash it. Use finings. Build a better wort chiller. Find a better supplier, so that you always use fresh ingredients. Read some books and learn how to make a better recipe.

Don't blame "blending".

Don't blame that some people have won before. We can't all be above-average. I sure as **** ain't.

Just keep learning and make the best ****ing beer that you can.

 

[remilard]

Hey, I absolutely agree about entering the same recipe over & over -- you've got a good one, use it! To me, the weird part is entering the same batch that won across 2 or 3 or 4 years -- because then you actually don't have to see consistency of process; you just had to have a great process once.

He can do that because he has excellent sanitation, low oxygen pickup, and cold storage. Those are all part of the process.

 

[Catch-22]

Why do these conversations all seem to center around Jamil? I don't know the guy personally but when I've had a question I email him and he actually responds. And in a timely matter. I have improved my process by listening to him and also to Kai when he has been on BBR. The goal for me is to improve. If I'm not improving I might as well just save time and money and drink miller.

 

[the_bird]

I've mentioned JZ just because he's probably the most well-known homebrewer as well as someone who enters a lot (and wins a lot) of competitions. You could sub in "Tasty" McDole if you'd like.

 

[Catch-22]

Yeah bird I agree with that. I was referring to the posts that were vague as to who the "winner" was but we could all read between the lines.

 

[remilard]

Here is a thought:

There seems to be a lot of confusion about competition rules. Rules for the competition are set by the sponsoring organization, which for the NHC is the AHA and which is never the BJCP. Most organizations will use BJCP guidelines and seek BJCP judges, but they don't have to.

The reason competitions have similar rules is that the people who organize competitions and compete a lot of sort of settled on those rules.

If you want to have a competition with division for experts and novices and in which blending or entering beer that has won a medal before are against the rules, you may do so.

 

[the_bird]

Here's the thing, something someone earlier in the thread kinda mentioned.

I was hanging out this weekend with an HBT regular who (I didn't know this before) entered a competition that JZ was also entered in... and lost to him by ONE freakin' point. Now, obviously he would have preferred to have won, but had he gotten that one extra point....

Would you rather be able to beat "the best", or not have the best brewers in the contest to begin with? How do you REALLY know how your stuff stands up, if you deliberately limit the competition?

Sounds like the OP's really looking for a JV team.

 

[Synovia]

No, that makes you an Author.

If I author a book on basketball, does that make me a pro? (At 5'9" and my physique, I am NOT going to be playing in the NBA!)

Not the same, but I would argue that a Hitting coach is a professional at baseball.

 

[the_bird]

JZ doesn't earn his living from selling homebrew books and appearing on The Brewing Network. Pretty sure he's a manager for some tech firm. Pretty sure Ray Daniels has a dayjob, as well. I'd wager that there are precious few in the "Homebrew Pantheon" who actually make their living from homebrew; maybe Papazian (not sure if he does other work or not).

So, maybe we need "amateur," "semi-pro," and "pro" divisions...

 

[Edcculus]

Here is a thought:

There seems to be a lot of confusion about competition rules. Rules for the competition are set by the sponsoring organization, which for the NHC is the AHA and which is never the BJCP. Most organizations will use BJCP guidelines and seek BJCP judges, but they don't have to.

The reason competitions have similar rules is that the people who organize competitions and compete a lot of sort of settled on those rules.

If you want to have a competition with division for experts and novices and in which blending or entering beer that has won a medal before are against the rules, you may do so.

Thats very true. Most competitions will seek "BJCP sanctioning" since BJCP judges have been through some sort of training process, taken a rigorous exam, and have been somewhat proven to be a competent judge. If a certain comp wants to set its own rules, like no NHC winners, that is completely up to them.

Straight from the BJCP website:
The purpose of the BJCP is to promote beer literacy and the appreciation of real beer, and to recognize beer tasting and evaluation skills.

 

[remilard]

Is Kevin Costner a professional baseball player?

 

[Willie3]

Let me clarify a several comments:

1.) No hidden agenda.
2.) Not aimed towards anyone
3.) Not looking to create a JV team.
4.) Never entered a contest.
5.) Kevin Costner is not a baseball player but plays one on the Big Screen.

 

[Homercidal]

I would enter a competition for the feedback. I'm at that point in my homebrewing career. At some point I might be looking forward to winning, and maybe even winning first place. If Jamil, Tasty, or any of the people who brew the best homebrew, and win a lot are not competing, it cheapens the whole deal.

You simply cannot separate pro brewers from homebrewers. Many homebrewers brew on rigs that rival pros. Some pros homebrew. I suspect that not many enter contests though. I say that as long as the beer entered into the competition was homebrewed (not brewed on equipment that brews beer for sale), then it should be allowed. Most competitions have rules in place to keep out the pros.

 

[Willie3]

Not saying the they are banned forever, maybe just for a year or for a particular category?

The more I think of this the more I like the comment about legends. Without them winning so many contests there would be no Jamil's or Tasty's or Kai's of this world.

But then again, Johnson keeps winning races even though it is with a different car. Do you think that this would force someone to brew different brews to win different categories and limit them from entering the same brew every year? Now that would be a legend, winning first in every category!

 

[JayInJersey]

I believe golf is the only one that prohibits one from competing in an "Amateur" competition after you have declared yourself as a "Professional"

And I say let them keep being the only ones.

 

[Willie3]

Here's the thing, something someone earlier in the thread kinda mentioned.

I was hanging out this weekend with an HBT regular who (I didn't know this before) entered a competition that JZ was also entered in... and lost to him by ONE freakin' point. Now, obviously he would have preferred to have won, but had he gotten that one extra point....

Would you rather be able to beat "the best", or not have the best brewers in the contest to begin with? How do you REALLY know how your stuff stands up, if you deliberately limit the competition?

Sounds like the OP's really looking for a JV team.

No why do you have to insult to OP? This was a hypothetical. The thought hit me when they retired Jr.'s Car after winning the Daytona 500. Then I thought about footbal where the best teams get the pick of the litter on draft day, then the word draft reminded me that I needed a beer, and the thought dwelled into beer comps.

Just thought it might make for good conversation but obviously it hit a sore spot for you bird.

 

[KurtB]

Willie3, did you really just come back to defend yourself nearly 3 years after the comments that The_Bird posted? Holy Necropost?!?!?!?

And for the record, and to stay on topic, I think any sort of moratorium is still a bad idea.

 

[stratslinger]

Holy necropost, batman!

I'd also be against the idea of a moratorium. If such a thing existed, and you were the guy that won during the year that Champ X couldn't compete, wouldn't you always wonder how you'd actually stack up against Champ X? I would.

Also - do you even know how the NFL draft works? The _worst_ teams get the pick of the litter, and the best teams pick last, barring draft pick trades. Come on, man!

 

[Willie3]

Holy necropost, batman!

I'd also be against the idea of a moratorium. If such a thing existed, and you were the guy that won during the year that Champ X couldn't compete, wouldn't you always wonder how you'd actually stack up against Champ X? I would.

Also - do you even know how the NFL draft works? The _worst_ teams get the pick of the litter, and the best teams pick last, barring draft pick trades. Come on, man!

Necropost, me? LoL!! Love it!!! Just browsing through some old posts.
And yes what I meant to type is "get the runts of the litter." Thanks for pointing that out.

And for the record I never said that there should be a moratorium, I just posted the "stupid" question, or "dumb" idea.

 

[the_bird]

I stand by my earlier declaration; declaring a brewer ineligible for future competitions (even for a limited period of time) is a terrible idea. It makes no sense to me - it's taking the cream of the crop and throwing it away.