MM2, 3 - Losing set? Cranken?

[wilserbrewer]

Thanks, Fred!

.

Yes thank you Fred! Very informative post.

Looking back I think perhaps I did a poor job choosing my words

I certainly agree crush is vital and important. Perhaps I should have stated a "good crush" vs just crush.

IMO the person evaluating the crush and adjusting the mill is more important than the mill itself. The key to getting a good crush isn't so much a matter of choosing the "best" mill, as it is to understanding what makes a good crush and having the mechanical ability to adjust the mill to perform to that standard.

Back to the original post on mills losing set point, I feel the operators were likely not torquing the set screws sufficiently. Perhaps thumb screws were a poor choice, but simply tightening them down a bit with a pair of pliers would solve the issue.

The link below is pretty thorough and goes through mill set, gap and desired crush characteristics and is a good read if you have a few minutes.

I find it ironic of all the homebrew mills tested, the lowly valued corona mill has the closest sieve results to the 4 roller pro model lol. Whatever mill you decide on for whatever reasons, just please learn how to adjust it and learn to eyeball the characteristics of a good crush. Also found it humbling that mill gap set on the 4 roller pro model mill, the operator tunes the mill with a visual evaluation of the grist, not w/ feeler gauges, go figure. I have no idea what the gap is on my 3 roller mill, I just adjusted it to produce a "good crush". We are not setting the valve clearance on a Porsche here, and yes I have done that Maybe I'm just too lazy to lay on the floor, get grain dust in my eyes and try and check the gap with a bent feeler gauge, that's how we roll, cheers happy Saturday.

http://brewlikeapro.net/maltmilling.html

 

[augiedoggy]

Monster Mills are completely Made in the USA, from materials made in the USA. I know because I own the company. Our bushings are made in the USA. The only Chinese parts on our mill are the small screws that we send to put the hopper together. The bolts to fasten the mill to the base, and hopper to the mill are made in North America. We use 1144 alloy steel for our rollers. The rockwell hardness for this material is 12-13 Rockwell C. The knurling process work hardens the rollers. We don't claim that the standard steel rollers are hardened because they don't under go an additional hardening process. Technically, anyone can claim any type of knurled roller is "Hardened". You don't know what they are doing to harden their rollers, because they don't tell you, right? I have no idea what anyone else is doing to harden their rollers. Our standard steel will last between 12-15K lbs of grain, which for most home brewers is a very long time. I have had some customers get twice this amount of life from their rollers.

Our larger Pro series mills have 2" diameter rollers that come with the same 1144 alloy steel rollers standard. We offer a hardened option on the larger pro mills. These rollers, made of the same type steel, are induction heat treated to Rockwell 51-54 C. We know because every batch is tested on a hardness tester. The heat treated rollers have lasted in excess of 150K lbs of grist in commercial applications. This information has been given to us by our commercial customers that use our mills day in and day out.

The Kegco mills are a Chinese COPY of my mill with some minor changes. They did NOT however even bother to change their copy of my hopper.

We don't use bearings on our standard mill because they add cost, and are not necessary. With proper maintenance, our standard bushings will last the life of our rollers, and longer. The only issue we have seen with bushing wear has been in motor drive applications with a belt that side loads the drive shaft, or when the gap is adjusted improperly, and the adjustable roller is crooked in the bushings. We offer the PD version of our mill that has a large USA made roller bearing to support the drive shaft, and the side loads generated by a belt, and eliminate the possibility of bushing wear.

Can you get replacement parts for your Kegco Mill? Can you get any support if you have a problem? Do you even know where it is made, or by what company? Tons of folks sell them, but no one has any idea who makes them. Maybe you don't care, but you might consider it.

All of the detailed information about our mills is spelled out in vivid detail on our web page, but for some reason no one seems to know. When I hear that my mill is made in China, it kinda makes me mad. When you spend money with us, you are benefiting at least 5 different families, and companies here in the USA that supply us with parts, and machining services. Our hoppers are cut on CNC laser cutters by a company in North Dakota. Our bases are CNC cut by a local cabinet maker here in GA. Our metal parts are all machined here in GA from material manufactured in the US. I won't try to compete with the Chinese on price. I can't beat them on price, and I don't want to try. I understand that our mills are more expensive, and they are because you get a better product with service and support. If you don't care about those things, and don't have the extra bucks, then the Kegco mill and its variants, seem to work for many folks. I think that our mill is a better value for the money, and will last longer than most others that are out there, and they come with the added benefit of keeping our money and jobs in the USA.

I will follow this thread if anyone wants to know anything about our mill that I haven't covered, or supply any info that isn't already on our web site.

Thanks!

~~fred francis
MBH

thank you for answering the questions we (ok mainly I) have been trying to figure out..

This is very informative... And in fairness this is the type of information you might want to actually disclose on your website as I looked there before questioning it because usually if something is not stated or advertised to be American made it's not.
And now days even if it does state made in America it could mean only some piece of final assy was done here which is not the case here and should be something to be proud of (and again mentioned) If it is somewhere I apologise because I really looked for it.

In reality though if you were to take all this aside and just compare the two mills not knowing anything about the origin or cost which would you honestly pick?
When you add in that the mill that has better bearings is less than half the price and knowing the past history with the other American brand mill the Barley crusher and its issues with bushings and rollers. Add that the clone of that mill was tremendously better and more reliable that the original. Than you have to understand why a person would ask these questions in the first place. With all these different mill brands all being almost direct copies of one another it's hard to tell who copied who but this one was copied so we'll I honestly thought they might be from the same factory which is actually common with many other products.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

In reality though if you were to take all this aside and just compare the two mills not knowing anything about the origin or cost which would you honestly pick?
When you add in that the mill that has better bearings is less than half the price and knowing the past history with the other American brand mill the Barley crusher and its issues with bushings and rollers. Add that the clone of that mill was tremendously better and more reliable that the original. Than you have to understand why a person would ask these questions in the first place. With all these different mill brands all being almost direct copies of one another it's hard to tell who copied who but this one was copied so we'll I honestly thought they might be from the same factory which is actually common with some other home brewing products.

Sans research, If you're looking for a budget mill, it's obvious which you'd pick,not knowing of metal terminology, ( sans research), and "assuming" that bearings, ( "better bearings" ), are what would be preferred, not considering side loading or drive method,(belt tension higher than needed, sans research),and springing on advertising hype alone.......It's why they sell, and work to "most" users satisfaction.

Happy brewing, ( and happy milling! )

 

[user 246304]

Monster Mills are completely Made in the USA, from materials made in the USA. I know because I own the company. Our bushings are made in the USA. The only Chinese parts on our mill are the small screws that we send to put the hopper together. The bolts to fasten the mill to the base, and hopper to the mill are made in North America. We use 1144 alloy steel for our rollers. The rockwell hardness for this material is 12-13 Rockwell C. The knurling process work hardens the rollers. We don't claim that the standard steel rollers are hardened because they don't under go an additional hardening process. Technically, anyone can claim any type of knurled roller is "Hardened". You don't know what they are doing to harden their rollers, because they don't tell you, right? I have no idea what anyone else is doing to harden their rollers. Our standard steel will last between 12-15K lbs of grain, which for most home brewers is a very long time. I have had some customers get twice this amount of life from their rollers.

Our larger Pro series mills have 2" diameter rollers that come with the same 1144 alloy steel rollers standard. We offer a hardened option on the larger pro mills. These rollers, made of the same type steel, are induction heat treated to Rockwell 51-54 C. We know because every batch is tested on a hardness tester. The heat treated rollers have lasted in excess of 150K lbs of grist in commercial applications. This information has been given to us by our commercial customers that use our mills day in and day out.

The Kegco mills are a Chinese COPY of my mill with some minor changes. They did NOT however even bother to change their copy of my hopper.

We don't use bearings on our standard mill because they add cost, and are not necessary. With proper maintenance, our standard bushings will last the life of our rollers, and longer. The only issue we have seen with bushing wear has been in motor drive applications with a belt that side loads the drive shaft, or when the gap is adjusted improperly, and the adjustable roller is crooked in the bushings. We offer the PD version of our mill that has a large USA made roller bearing to support the drive shaft, and the side loads generated by a belt, and eliminate the possibility of bushing wear.

Can you get replacement parts for your Kegco Mill? Can you get any support if you have a problem? Do you even know where it is made, or by what company? Tons of folks sell them, but no one has any idea who makes them. Maybe you don't care, but you might consider it.

All of the detailed information about our mills is spelled out in vivid detail on our web page, but for some reason no one seems to know. When I hear that my mill is made in China, it kinda makes me mad. When you spend money with us, you are benefiting at least 5 different families, and companies here in the USA that supply us with parts, and machining services. Our hoppers are cut on CNC laser cutters by a company in North Dakota. Our bases are CNC cut by a local cabinet maker here in GA. Our metal parts are all machined here in GA from material manufactured in the US. I won't try to compete with the Chinese on price. I can't beat them on price, and I don't want to try. I understand that our mills are more expensive, and they are because you get a better product with service and support. If you don't care about those things, and don't have the extra bucks, then the Kegco mill and its variants, seem to work for many folks. I think that our mill is a better value for the money, and will last longer than most others that are out there, and they come with the added benefit of keeping our money and jobs in the USA.

I will follow this thread if anyone wants to know anything about our mill that I haven't covered, or supply any info that isn't already on our web site.

Thanks!

~~fred francis
MBH

Extraordinary way to come to the site this morning. Thank you Fred. One of the best assertions of a company's views I've ever seen.

 

[augiedoggy]

Sans research, If you're looking for a budget mill, it's obvious which you'd pick,not knowing of metal terminology, ( sans research), and "assuming" that bearings, ( "better bearings" ), are what would be preferred, not considering side loading or drive method,(belt tension higher than needed, sans research),and springing on advertising hype alone.......It's why they sell, and work to "most" users satisfaction.

Happy brewing, ( and happy milling! )

THIS is just my personal opinion.

I disagree there... I really believe they sell better because they are advertised and pushed by vendors quite a bit. For a time the Barley crusher got the same spotlight and was the go too mill... After a while more and more problem threads popped up with the rollers stopping and the fact they they needed to be disassembled and the bushings oiled.. over and over.

roller composition aside,

The actual side force applied on the roller shaft from crushing the grain is enough to wear out the bushings over time and allow grain dust in between the shaft and bushing causing more resistance ... Yes they work but if you could have the superior with less maintenance option for half the cost why wouldnt you?

The only GOOD reason I can find is the buying american made factor. and thats a personal decision.. If they were designed for equal lifespan and a comparable price that would make the choice easier for more people. But american workers are expensive, apparently so much so that the product has to me made more cost effectively to offset the price against its competitors and even then its still quite a bit more money in this case.. I'm sorry but thats the way it looks to me.

Unfortunately you can logically compare the value of two products without such things as origin and cost as well as how well they are built and engineered.. I see a slightly better engineered product for half the cost but with a base design stolen from the competitor.. This is unfortunatley a very common scenario.. Usually american companies try to take more effort to disguise what they copy from their predecessors and chinese companies usually make inferior clones to make this choice easier.

So what do we want, Better engineered products for more competitive prices? Its a hell of a lot better that inferior quality knock offs right?

 

[Stealthcruiser]

O k.

 

[Mb2658]

I have a 3 roller Crankandstein with an AAW motor. I wired it up with two contractors to make it reversible and mounted it onto the top of a Seville rolling cabinet. View attachment IMG_0322.jpg

 

[brick_haus]

This thread makes me want to buy another Monster Mill. Even though my current belt driven MM2 2.0 with OI bushings has no signs of increased side play, never stuck or stalled, has held adjustment for over 1000 pounds of grain throughput etc.
I guess replacing it would be pointless...this AMERICAN MADE mill is great! Why would anyone even consider a POS Chinese COPY of this high quality American design, possibly using child labor and hazardous working conditions. In the end, what difference is the extra cost going to make?

 

[user 246304]

Whatever I ultimately decide, and right now it's looking like the place where I began, Monster Mill, this has been an education, from everyone here. I'm grateful.

 

[user 246304]

Sorry for what is probably an obvious question, but is this the Kegco 3 roller mill, in setup and operation?

Edit: Man, I really need to wake up. I saw the Kegco name upper right just now. Have to say, this is basically what I did with my JSP MM for years, to great effect. Except the gap was permanently set, I believe, at .045.

Alright, I'll say it. Have spent slowly but tried to spend well so far, as a fixed income is not infinite but I want everything to be purpose-built and quality, this time. This is likely "it." But with this decision, extremely difficult because from what I can tell, these do perform really well, backed up by a lot of people here. Yet I can see Monster is the genesis of them all.

This isn't going to be easy.

 

[augiedoggy]

This thread makes me want to buy another Monster Mill. Even though my current belt driven MM2 2.0 with OI bushings has no signs of increased side play, never stuck or stalled, has held adjustment for over 1000 pounds of grain throughput etc.
I guess replacing it would be pointless...this AMERICAN MADE mill is great! Why would anyone even consider a POS Chinese COPY of this high quality American design, possibly using child labor and hazardous working conditions. In the end, what difference is the extra cost going to make?

Well a common reason besides the ones already mentioned, Like the durability of the bearings being able to hold up to pulley drive setups..

Some people actually have a limited amount of money and cant afford to spend the extra $200 to step on this soapbox but still want the best quality mill they can justify and afford.

Some people just want the best value for their money . Especially those who apparently dont make the kind of money as the people building and selling some of it.

The reality is its not that simple, We all use chinese made stuff everyday we just dont know it and unless your daily driver was made 30+ years ago and you research everything you buy you can bet you likely do too..


Like Mentioned before different in different situations have different priorities to weigh..
For some its more about how its made. For others it more important where.. Some can afford the luxury of both.

We really should just stick to what mills have what tangible advantages and disadvantages now that we all know where they come.

 

[user 246304]

Now I expose my less-than-awesome tools mastery shows (any project I've done, like build a Japanese tea garden single handed in the midst of a Providence snow storm, with a torn rotator cuff....is because I didn't know I couldn't. Now, I've had too much experience with tools to know I truly know nothing).

It appears the drill in the video used is a Ryobi P277 One+ 18 Volt. Good?

 

[Morrey]

Now I expose my less-than-awesome tools mastery shows (any project I've done, like build a Japanese tea garden single handed in the midst of a Providence snow storm, with a torn rotator cuff....is because I didn't know I couldn't. Now, I've had too much experience with tools to know I truly know nothing).

It appears the drill in the video used is a Ryobi P277 One+ 18 Volt. Good?

At first I used a corded hand drill for my MM3. Since I BIAB I grind pretty tight and have my bottom roller gap at .037 which is on the tighter side for a 3 roller mill. This mill and gap setting requires lots of gutsy drive torque else it is prone to stalling out and possibly burning the windings. I quickly found that the best drill for the job was a 10a 1/2" DeWalt corded drill....other less built drills typically cant muster the torque for the job....but I'm not selling drills either.

I ended up building a cart and motorized my MM3 with a 180 RPM AAW motor. This is the Cadillac approach to milling, but hand drills are a great way to grind at home.

 

[user 246304]

Thanks a lot Morrey. I'm not settled yet by any means, just have taken in what Augie has been saying, seeing that video (which I did find impressive), considering being able to get in on a 3 roller with new drill that is about the cost of the AAW alone. On the other hand, hanging on a bit longer, and buying an MM3 with the AAW in a permanent mount, knowing I've done probably the best I could do at our level; I very carefully chose Spike for my reasons, have a great welder for my frame, etc.

I have absolutely no ability to discern any quality difference between the Kegco and the MM. I already spoke of a finite budget, which Augie also reflected above. On the other hand, I do take in what Brick said. Just as when I was a chef, I searched the nation to find animals to cook whose story I knew, intimately, I feel the same way here, really.

Don't know if I'm making any sense. Pain level is pretty intense today and my mind is in a bit of a fog. Trying to say, I'm settled on the style but torn on the final company, for many reasons.

 

[HLSheppard]

Weren't you the guy that got all upset with me when I mentioned the barley crushers were known to have problems in another thread a year or 2 ago? I remember you and another Guy in the thread got pretty defensive against me and basically told me I was full of it?
All I was trying to do was let people know what the deal was since some companies spend so much on marketing it doesnt matter how poorly their products stack up against others.. Unfortunately you dont always get what you pay for.

Clearly you've put way more energy in that discussion than I did. Couldn't tell you.

Is your ultimate goal to always be right? Ok, YOU WIN. You're ALWAYS RIGHT.

Better?

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Iffn' any of you are on F B, M M maker put up a post, if interested:

https://www.facebook.com/MonsterBre...GmlraLtWJxo5wlvzrNm1HFrNYYVOdBudg1UGc&fref=nf

 

[user 246304]

Thanks Stealth. Reading it right now.

 

[augiedoggy]

Clearly you've put way more energy in that discussion than I did. Couldn't tell you.

Is your ultimate goal to always be right? Ok, YOU WIN. You're ALWAYS RIGHT.

Better?

Well I'm sorry. I guessing by your attitude I remembered right.. I wouldnt even have brought it up But I specifically remember mongoose and yourself trying to discredit me for mentioning the issue they commonly had calling me a naysayer at the time.. It was a long time ago and maybe I just remember it a little differently than it went down..
Anyway this is the first I heard that you ended up having those issues as well.. But that was kind of the point behind me being so critical here since the things believed to be at fault with the BC by so many are shared with some other mills in question.

 

[user 246304]

In another vein, and this has been a really difficult decision for me. I know that won't mean much to most, and may also sound hypocritical to many. But in my circumstances, and I won't go into anything more, I do believe the best decision I should make is going to be the CK, with a drill. I was very impressed with what I saw in the video (with the 3 roller Kegco), and with what I've read from many for whom I've already gained respect for in this forum, who testify to the CK's performance and durability. I used to use the JSP, as I've said, and it got me there very well. This will do it even better, I believe. I don't know that I can realize that much of a benefit from a 3-roller v. 2-roller mill, though I'm still open to and thinking about it.

I honestly hope I can set, and get brewing, once all else is brought together.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Rock on!

 

[Morrey]

Thanks a lot Morrey. I'm not settled yet by any means, just have taken in what Augie has been saying, seeing that video (which I did find impressive), considering being able to get in on a 3 roller with new drill that is about the cost of the AAW alone. On the other hand, hanging on a bit longer, and buying an MM3 with the AAW in a permanent mount, knowing I've done probably the best I could do at our level; I very carefully chose Spike for my reasons, have a great welder for my frame, etc.

I have absolutely no ability to discern any quality difference between the Kegco and the MM. I already spoke of a finite budget, which Augie also reflected above. On the other hand, I do take in what Brick said. Just as when I was a chef, I searched the nation to find animals to cook whose story I knew, intimately, I feel the same way here, really.

Don't know if I'm making any sense. Pain level is pretty intense today and my mind is in a bit of a fog. Trying to say, I'm settled on the style but torn on the final company, for many reasons.

I'll share with you a quick story which may help you decide. I started with a Kegco 3 roller. This machine had no instructions other than assembly, plus I fabricated a base that was not exact and got the frame out of alignment just a fraction...but that was all it took. Needless to say I had issues, got very anxious about the issues after getting little help from Beverage Factory and bought a new MM3. I immediately noted the similarities in the two machines and they seem REALLY close in design.

I bought a hopper and base for the MM3, plus I watched several YouTube videos how the setup the MM3. Well, the Kegco sets up and adjusts identically, plus the base for the MM3 fits the Kegco perfectly except the mounting bolts are metric for Kegco and SAE for MM3. So I bought a second base from Monster Mills and mounted the Kegco which now works beautifully.

I motorized the MM3 so it is basically semi permanent in my brew cave. The Kegco is portable and I take it to club meetings, my buddies house or wherever and use a 10a Dewalt corded drill. But I now understand the operation of the Kegco and believe it to be just fine as I get good consistent grinds with it. Had I done some additional research AND REALIZED the setup and adjustment directions for the MM3 were the same for the Kegco, I would have been able to eliminate the additional purchase. But all in all, I am happy having both.

 

[user 246304]

Thanks Morrey, that's excellent and really helpful. I think if I had my druthers, it would be to permanently mount the Kegco with a lovejoy and motor, just because I like having hands off when pouring the grain and can watch for any issues. But that's a really small thing, really - like I've said, I used the Schmidling for years and years, no issues, great grist. I've noted that on Amazon, even, if you want to buy the Kegco they suggest the monster base as a "you might also consider this...." thing.

Thanks again.

 

[Morrey]

The AAW with Lovejoy coupler is an amazing setup. Takes some doing to get it aligned just right, plus I felt the need to use a DP/DT drum switch so I could have reverse...which I have never used, lol. This sucker could grind pea gravel and never miss a beat, but I have reverse for what that's worth. The drum switch was $65 so I guess that's what is worth dollar wise, so I got a few bucks tied up in this grinder mill. But this is my hobby and I take great pride in doing things the best I can. I get great satisfaction filling the hopper, flipping the lever to forward, then watching the mill get the job done.

 

[user 246304]

THat's a thing of beauty, Morrey. Seriously. Sorry to ask - but on your MM3 photo here, is it a keyed shaft, 1/2", plain 1/2", or their 3/8" plain shaft? I was wondering how the lovejoys work when you aren't using a keyed shaft...or whether you're asking for trouble if you don't get the keyed shaft option on both ends.

 

[Morrey]

THat's a thing of beauty, Morrey. Seriously. Sorry to ask - but on your MM3 photo here, is it a keyed shaft, 1/2", plain 1/2", or their 3/8" plain shaft? I was wondering how the lovejoys work when you aren't using a keyed shaft...or whether you're asking for trouble if you don't get the keyed shaft option on both ends.

On my MM3 (pictured) this is the optional 1/2" drive shaft but is just the flat sided shaft. I don't remember exactly, but the mill I selected didn't have the keyway shaft as an option. You may want to look at MM site, but it seems as if the keyed shaft was only available on the pro models with larger rollers.

Kegco's shafts are in mm, so be careful in getting the correct coupler depending on the mill you use.

Slippage was a concern to me just as it should be to anyone building a mill like this. On the flat side of the shaft, I marked the spot the coupler setscrew would bite in, then I took a dremel tool and made an indention for the setscrew to lock down into. I added a drop of Loctite and have not had the first moment of trouble with anything slipping. I suppose a keyway would be ideal, but with normal homebrewer use as I give my machine, I don't foresee any issues setting one up as mentioned.

Here is the other side on the build. I have storage room available.

 

[user 246304]

Good info and great build. Thanks Morrey.

 

[user 246304]

FWIW I've confirmed with Kegco that both the 2 and 3 roller mill are ball-bearing based, despite what Amazon and the Bev Factory site says. They've yet to change the site but I was informed by a Kegco rep. of the manufacturing change.

Maybe this has been said already in the thread - sorry if so.

 

[augiedoggy]

As unpopular as this info will likely be, Im going to point out that the AAW motor is imported for all the folks concerned with the american made aspect..

That's info that was shared in another thread a few weeks back...I remember because it was something someone who had one that was on order was sharing because he was told they were delayed at customs by AAW and another member thought it was misleading that the "American ale works " company was selling a Chinese motor under the brand name and comments as such. (Which is why I didn't just assume the mm3 was when I couldn't find any information on where it was made when I looked on thier site and even googled it at the time.) However is did wrongly assume they might have been made by the same manufacturer which was worse.

 

[brick_haus]

Belt driven MM here. A good old farm duty motor (USA) and American made belts and pulleys.
To complete my theme, I removed the Chinese bolts used to fasten my hopper together and replaced them with American made rivets...using an American made rivet gun...
God bless America

 

[augiedoggy]

Belt driven MM here. A good old farm duty motor (USA) and American made belts and pulleys.
To complete my theme, I removed the Chinese bolts used to fasten my hopper together and replaced them with American made rivets...using an American made rivet gun...
God bless America

I hope your not using German or Canadian crafted grain in that ��
On a serious note, If it's not the pro version you may want to order some extra bushing since they are not recommended for the sideload from the belt drive and will elongate..
I'm also curious to know where you found an American made farm motor. I. Sure they still exist but I had a hard time finding one... I researched them last year to replace one on an antique air compressor I have from the 20s that kept blowing the breaker and all the ones I could find including the direct GE replacement we're imported or refurbed by undisclosed third party now . I was able to repair the original after finding the cord insulation had broken down where it goes into the motor.