Missing a Good Tasting Stout and Porter on My Recipes. What's Up?

[Bigarcherynut]

I've been brewing for about 5 years and graduated up to BIAB all grain brewing in my homemade e-kettle for 2-1/2 years now. My first few batches were ok but found my well water was extremely hard. I installed a RO filter system 2 years ago. I worked with a few members on the site to get my water right. Thanks.

I had to take time off last year due to an unexpected heart bypass surgery. Last fall I did 3 batches. 2 Stouts and a nut brown ale. My beers are drinkable and many friends like them but I feel I'm missing something. My Stouts and Porters are just not like the beers I sometimes buy. Mine seem to be missing that coffee/chocolate flavor Stouts have. Mine all seem light and almost a slight molasses taste. I also tried a clone of Tallgrass Buffalo Sweat, an oatmeal cream stout which I love and have often on tap at a local bar. I took a bottle to the bar to compare with the original and it was night and day difference. Why can't I hit that heavy stout flavor I love. A few years ago prior to all grain and my RO water I did a partial grain clone of a Black Butte Porter. It was spot on to the original. Am I off with my all grain brewing??

Thanks for your input.

 

[Yooper]

For stouts and porters, it's common to need some alkalinity when using RO water. Do you check your mash pH?

 

[Rhaop]

I know the feeling you’re describing i’ve made at least one great beer out of all the different styles i’ve brewed but the half dozen stout or porters I’ve made have been lack luster, actually brewing a stout this weekend, using some caramel 80 and splitting my roasted grains going half carafa and half roasted barley, also shooting to keep my mash ph on the slightly higher side

Adding in a half lb of lactose hoping to add mouthfeel and find a balance of caramel, chocolate and coffee notes in this beer

 

[Bigarcherynut]

For stouts and porters, it's common to need some alkalinity when using RO water. Do you check your mash pH?

First back when I started using RO water you helped me get the right water chemistry. Thanks.

Taking almost a year off felt like starting over. Yes I do take pH readings of my mash and I'm really close when I brew. I only need minor tweaks and my mash pH is at 5.4. With my hard water, to hit my numbers I use either 90% or 95% RO water.

 

[Yooper]

First back when I started using RO water you helped me get the right water chemistry. Thanks.

Taking almost a year off felt like starting over. Yes I do take pH readings of my mash and I'm really close when I brew. I only need minor tweaks and my mash pH is at 5.4. With my hard water, to hit my numbers I use either 90% or 95% RO water.

It's probably not the issue then, if you're at 5.4, but I'd go a bit higher with roasted malts to 5.5 and consider adding more chloride. What's a typical water profile for your stouts?

 

[Bigarcherynut]

It's probably not the issue then, if you're at 5.4, but I'd go a bit higher with roasted malts to 5.5 and consider adding more chloride. What's a typical water profile for your stouts?

Here's a screenshot of the profile I used.

 

[thehaze]

That water profile will probably not be OK for many beers.

You need some more Ca, Mg and sulfate to make any beer shine...

 

[TimmyWit]

Here's a screenshot of the profile I used.

Can you post your grain bill input page? A typical stout grain bill will drive your PH too low and you need something to bring it back up. I don't see anything in your mineral additions to indicate you are bringing it back up so I'm curious to see how you are hitting 5.41.

 

[joegbeer]

On your brew water spreadsheet (hard to read, looks like) your not adding enough mineral additions to hit targets for magnesium, sulfate and chlorides. Your example is also for a "brown, full" water profile. If your really trying to create a good stout, I'd look at using a target profile like "Black, Malty".

 

[Bigarcherynut]

That water profile will probably not be OK for many beers.

You need some more Ca, Mg and sulfate to make any beer shine...

Thanks. While waiting for replies on this thread I read up on water profiles and it appears that over a year ago when I put in my RO system I got some good advice but not everything I needed. You are correct on what you have said. I also found that I did not enter all the data in the Bru'n Water program. Like I said I was just getting started with water profiles when I had surgery.

Thanks

Can you post your grain bill input page? A typical stout grain bill will drive your PH too low and you need something to bring it back up. I don't see anything in your mineral additions to indicate you are bringing it back up so I'm curious to see how you are hitting 5.41.

What I did on the Bru'n Water spread sheet is enter my data like it said but did not save that as a template so when I created this profile no data was in the new spreadsheet. Opps. I did make additions for the pH and some corrections when brewing so that's why I had to add some chemical when I started the mash process. I did hit the 5.4 pH. Here is the grain bill if that helps.
Thanks Much.

List
Mash Brew & Grow #

7.1 lbs. Pale Malt (2) Row US 100
.93 lbs. Roasted Barley 550.0 SRM 319
.93 lbs. Victory Malt 25.0 SRM 129
7.3 Oz. = .456 lbs. Oats Flaked 1.0 SRM 116
7.3 Oz. = .456 lbs. Vienna Malt 3.5 SRM 130
5.5 Oz. = .343 lbs. Black Malt 550.0 SRM 506
7.3 Oz. = .456 lbs. Milk Sugar (Lactose) 0.0 SRM
10.67 Pounds
Hops
.92 Oz. = 26.08 grams Glacier 5.6%
.18 Oz. = 5.1 grams Willamette 5.5%
1.1 Oz. = 31.18 grams
Yeast
WYeast 1098

On your brew water spreadsheet (hard to read, looks like) your not adding enough mineral additions to hit targets for magnesium, sulfate and chlorides. Your example is also for a "brown, full" water profile. If your really trying to create a good stout, I'd look at using a target profile like "Black, Malty".

What you are telling me is what I read last night. When seeking help when I put in the RO system I think I only got partial help and more towards getting my pH right. Looks like I missed what you are saying. It's making sense now. As I mentioned I did not get all the data into the spreadsheet. I'm going back in and create a new profile using Black Malty and see what it gives me. My time away puts me back to square one but it's making sense on what everyone is telling me.

Thanks much and I'm getting excited to start up again.

Bill

 

[Yooper]

That water profile will probably not be OK for many beers.

You need some more Ca, Mg and sulfate to make any beer shine...

I would NOT add sulfate and magnesium to a stout. Calcium isn't necessary, but it wouldn't hurt if it's kept under 100ppm.

 

[Kent88]

When I started messing with my water my stouts improved a lot. I didn't even do much, I used filtered tap water with a little chalk to mash and then sparged with distilled water with a little CaCl added. I didn't really mess with finding out exactly what was in my water, just tried to go easy on the salts/fines.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

I would NOT add sulfate and magnesium to a stout. Calcium isn't necessary, but it wouldn't hurt if it's kept under 100ppm.

Through my readings last night from this forum there is a sticky on water. In the list of beer profiles it has an oatmeal stout. My calcium is close being 58 with the range they suggest being 50-75. My Mag is only 5 and they recommend 10-30 so I'm a little low and my sulfate is 3 and they recommend 50-150 so I'm way off.

Maybe using 90% RO has these numbers low. In my profile I created last year, I was only concentrating on my pH. I was missing everything else. Do you feel this is what I'm missing?

 

[Bigarcherynut]

When I started messing with my water my stouts improved a lot. I didn't even do much, I used filtered tap water with a little chalk to mash and then sparged with distilled water with a little CaCl added. I didn't really mess with finding out exactly what was in my water, just tried to go easy on the salts/fines.

When I started all grain people suggested being on a well I should have my water tested so I know what I have. When I got the results back found I have very hard water. My total hardness was 419. That's why I went with an RO system. That made it like working with a clean slate. Now I need to get the mixture of my well water and RO right. To get my pH right started using 90 % RO but left my water too pure. Need to play with the percentages.

Thanks.

 

[Yooper]

Through my readings last night from this forum there is a sticky on water. In the list of beer profiles it has an oatmeal stout. My calcium is close being 58 with the range they suggest being 50-75. My Mag is only 5 and they recommend 10-30 so I'm a little low and my sulfate is 3 and they recommend 50-150 so I'm way off.

Maybe using 90% RO has these numbers low. In my profile I created last year, I was only concentrating on my pH. I was missing everything else. Do you feel this is what I'm missing?

You don't need magnesium- malt has plenty. It's not really part of the profile that is needed- it's just that it COULD have that much, if that makes sense. Calcium enhances yeast flocculation (not all that important in a stout), and helps prevent beerstone in your kettle, so usually at least 50 ppm or so is recommended- but again, not necessary for flavor.
I would suggest having a chloride level of 60-70 ppm or so, and a mash pH of 5.5, and enough bicarb to get your mash pH of 5.5 (which would add some sodium since you'd use baking soda to get there I assume).
The only time I use 100% tap water is in my oatmeal stout- it's got about 225 of bicarbonate in it, and I get a mash pH of 5.5 with it.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

Well I have been reading as much as I could find in regards to water profiles. I found a great article by Thean Leonard Kruger aka "Kruger_Brewer".

Great down to earth reading and makes it understandable. Some articles I read last year you needed a degree in chemistry to understand. After reading his article and with the advice I received, I revisited my water profile. I made major changes and believe I have a water profile that should get my stouts closer to what I'm hoping for. I'm posting a screen shot so you can see what I came up with. I posted a screen shot of the original earlier in this thread. Hope you can read them.

Thanks.

 

[Yooper]

For me, I'd use calcium chloride and get the chloride up a bit as well as the calcium, say 60-70 ppm of chloride, and likely ditch the epsom salt since it's not doing anything anyway.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

For me, I'd use calcium chloride and get the chloride up a bit as well as the calcium, say 60-70 ppm of chloride, and likely ditch the epsom salt since it's not doing anything anyway.

I removed the Epson salt and looking back shouldn't need it. As for the calcium chloride, my level of Chloride is at 66 so that should be as you suggested.

Thanks for your advice. This is quite a change from my previous profile I used.

 

[fragged]

Through my readings last night from this forum there is a sticky on water. In the list of beer profiles it has an oatmeal stout. My calcium is close being 58 with the range they suggest being 50-75. My Mag is only 5 and they recommend 10-30 so I'm a little low and my sulfate is 3 and they recommend 50-150 so I'm way off.

Maybe using 90% RO has these numbers low. In my profile I created last year, I was only concentrating on my pH. I was missing everything else. Do you feel this is what I'm missing?

I was going to say that you can probably back off the dilution to 80 percent looking at your numbers. Depends on how you get your RO. If it's the store, I'd back off then take the rest of the advice Yooper gave above. If it's from a home system, do what you wish. I'd do 80 or 90 still personally, simply because I'd see it as saving myself a few minutes waiting on RO. That is, assuming there isn't anything else funky in the well.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

I was going to say that you can probably back off the dilution to 80 percent looking at your numbers. Depends on how you get your RO. If it's the store, I'd back off then take the rest of the advice Yooper gave above. If it's from a home system, do what you wish. I'd do 80 or 90 still personally, simply because I'd see it as saving myself a few minutes waiting on RO. That is, assuming there isn't anything else funky in the well.

I have my own home system due to the hardness of my well water.

Are you saying use 80-90% RO water and only 10-20% well water? Currently my profile is 65% RO.

 

[fragged]

I have my own home system due to the hardness of my well water.

Are you saying use 80-90% RO water and only 10-20% well water? Currently my profile is 65% RO.

Nope, sorry, I misread the screen shot earlier. 65% would work.