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I'm certainly no expert on the this subject.

But if there is a problem with alcohol and Christianity, how do you explain the Trappist Monks, who have been making for centuries some of the best beer in the world?


From Wikipedia:
A Trappist beer is a beer brewed by or under control of Trappist monks. There are a total of 174 Trappist monasteries worldwide (as of April 2011); only seven (six in Belgium, one in the Netherlands) produce Trappist beer and are authorized to label their beers with the Authentic Trappist Product logo that indicates a compliance to the various rules of the International Trappist Association.

Christianity had various subcultures within that disagree over this. Southern Baptists and other fundamentalists would say those monks have missed a clear teaching in scripture against alcohol. I think they're wrong about what scripture says, though. By-and-large I don't think Catholics have a problem with alcohol (though I am by no means an expert in Catholic teaching and practice), and Protestants don't have monks. Some of the protestants that don't like drinking might just say that's another thing that the Catholics got wrong, and something other protestants (Presbies, Lutherans) have compromised with Rome on.

Taking your logic to the extreme--many Christians have done awful things, like the crusades, but that doesn't mean every Christian thinks we should keep doing that.
 
So fast food is out too, because it will kill you? So much for all the big, fat-filled church potlucks which are actually sinful because fat is not good for you and will kill you. Ice cream--fatty sugar that will kill you. I believe alcohol is proven to be harmful to the liver, I guess OP and the rest of us should quit brewing and consuming.

I don't go in for the above logic, so I'll keep enjoying my pipes, cigars, and cigarettes just like my beer--in moderation. I smoke about once a week, if that, so I'm not scared of dying any time soon. What's more, scripture does not enjoin abstinence from tobacco any more than alcohol, so man may not bind my conscience in that regard. If you are convicted otherwise, by all means, abstain.

Who said that fast food in moderation will kill you? or Church Potlucks in moderation? Or Ice-cream in moderation? Or sugar in moderation? Did you research liver disease from Alcohol consumption to really understand how it comes about?

Though, let's take it a step further, our imperfect body essentially stops working over the course of our lives of only 60-100 years. See my point? Anything or everything can "kill" you in some way.

I commend you for trying to be moderate, as Gal 5:22 speaks of the fruitages of the spirit, that we are display "self-control" and 1 Cor 9:24-27 speaks of "self-control" as a runner does to prepare for a race.

Speaking of those who are gluttons, Prov 28:7 warns against having "companionship with gluttons".

Don't we agree, though, that eating is a natural and proper, needed for our bodies to survive (even some alcoholic beverages have their abilities to help; provided we don't over-indulge in either). In contrast smoking tobacco is not natural. How many chemicals in an ice-cream are poisonous to us? However there is a litany of chemicals in tobacco, 250 are known to poisonous, carcinogenic cancer causing.

Like I said, would we sniff smog out of the tailpipe of the car for a couple hours, even every other week, knowing it will kill us eventually? It is your body, do as you wish. But, don't make the claim that tobacco and food has the same affect on your body.
 
By-and-large I don't think Catholics have a problem with alcohol (though I am by no means an expert in Catholic teaching and practice)....

If by problem you mean attitude to Alcohol, the Catholic Church would say several of the following. 1. Moderation is key. 2. Alcohol is a luxuray (compared to say food, but not when compared to say diamonds) so if it keeps you - or those you are responsible for - from eating, then you have to fix priorities.

If by problem, you mean drunkness, then I'd say the members (both religous and lay) are probably about the same % as the rest of the world.
 
I'm in seminary and a candidate for ordination with the Methodist church. I just received word that I'm receiving an appointment as pastor at a small rural church in NC this upcoming summer. While I have no theological/moral complications with brewing, drinking and being a pastor, I'm wondering what the church I'll be pastoring might think.

Knowing that this is a forum for homebrewers, I'm not expecting anybody on here to have any objections to a minister who brews and drinks. My concern is what would all of your grandmas say about it.

And... discuss.

pray about it, talk to the board of elders (or whatever you call it there) about it
 
Who said that fast food in moderation will kill you? or Church Potlucks in moderation? Or Ice-cream in moderation? Or sugar in moderation? Did you research liver disease from Alcohol consumption to really understand how it comes about?

Though, let's take it a step further, our imperfect body essentially stops working over the course of our lives of only 60-100 years. See my point? Anything or everything can "kill" you in some way.

I commend you for trying to be moderate, as Gal 5:22 speaks of the fruitages of the spirit, that we are display "self-control" and 1 Cor 9:24-27 speaks of "self-control" as a runner does to prepare for a race.

Speaking of those who are gluttons, Prov 28:7 warns against having "companionship with gluttons".

Don't we agree, though, that eating is a natural and proper, needed for our bodies to survive (even some alcoholic beverages have their abilities to help; provided we don't over-indulge in either). In contrast smoking tobacco is not natural. How many chemicals in an ice-cream are poisonous to us? However there is a litany of chemicals in tobacco, 250 are known to poisonous, carcinogenic cancer causing.

Like I said, would we sniff smog out of the tailpipe of the car for a couple hours, even every other week, knowing it will kill us eventually? It is your body, do as you wish. But, don't make the claim that tobacco and food has the same affect on your body.

I was not saying those things were wrong in moderation, you were the one saying that something dangerous when immoderately used should not be used at all. I smoke tobacco moderately, drink moderately, and eat unhealthy food moderately. I assume you do the same, except for smoking tobacco. Is fast-food natural? Will smoking a cigarette once or twice a week (moderation) kill you? You say that anything will in a way, but why is tobacco picked out as the one that can't be done in moderation, while eating unhealthy food can be done in moderation. Food is necessary for survival, but is McDonald's necessary?
 
tennesseean_87 said:
Will smoking a cigarette once or twice a week (moderation) kill you? You say that anything will in a way, but why is tobacco picked out as the one that can't be done in moderation, while eating unhealthy food can be done in moderation.

Now you've gone from smoking not even once a week, to smoking once or twice a week. When someone becomes as defensive about something as you have it is not unreasonable to think there may be an addiction.

The evidence is that smoking even a couple of cigarettes a week is observably damaging to your health. Cigarettes are thought to be as physically addictive as heroin.

By your logic, crack cocaine and methamphetamine should also be appropriate for a Christian to use, if only done in moderation.
 
Now you've gone from smoking not even once a week, to smoking once or twice a week. When someone becomes as defensive about something as you have it is not unreasonable to think there may be an addiction.

The evidence is that smoking even a couple of cigarettes a week is observably damaging to your health. Cigarettes are thought to be as physically addictive as heroin.

By your logic, crack cocaine and methamphetamine should also be appropriate for a Christian to use, if only done in moderation.

Akin to saying "I'll slit my wrists only once or twice a month for fun, I mean the bible doesn't say "don't slit your wrists!"" Hey as long as it doesn't kill you right away and the bible doesn't spell it out to you like a your a 4 year old, everything cool if it's in moderation :)
 
I'm really addicted, which is why I can give up any nicotine source for lent and have no problem abstaining, and why I'll often go weeks on end without smoking at all when I get too busy to enjoy them. I have also given up smoking during sports seasons for months on end.

Maybe I don't have an addictive personality, but I've been smoking for years and I'm not addicted. The idea that any tobacco consumption is sinful is not biblical, it's a reflection of society's demonization of tobacco. Again, McD's won't kill you right away, and the Bible doesn't forbid it, but it's bad for you. Be consistent.
 
By your logic, crack cocaine and methamphetamine should also be appropriate for a Christian to use, if only done in moderation.
Quite the straw man. As a christian, you are supposed to follow the laws of man as well as those of god, aren't you? One substance is legal, and one of god's creations. Your examples are chemicals created by man, and illegal.
 
By your logic, crack cocaine and methamphetamine should also be appropriate for a Christian to use, if only done in moderation.

thank you. i have been waiting for a voice of reason to echo what i've always felt to be true. Now i can let er RIP!!!! woooo whooo!
 
Akin to saying "I'll slit my wrists only once or twice a month for fun, I mean the bible doesn't say "don't slit your wrists!"" Hey as long as it doesn't kill you right away and the bible doesn't spell it out to you like a your a 4 year old, everything cool if it's in moderation :)

YES. - this too???- PARTY TIME!
 
I was not saying those things were wrong in moderation, you were the one saying that something dangerous when immoderately used should not be used at all. I smoke tobacco moderately, drink moderately, and eat unhealthy food moderately. I assume you do the same, except for smoking tobacco. Is fast-food natural? Will smoking a cigarette once or twice a week (moderation) kill you? You say that anything will in a way, but why is tobacco picked out as the one that can't be done in moderation, while eating unhealthy food can be done in moderation. Food is necessary for survival, but is McDonald's necessary?

Yes, I'm saying something dangerous should not be used at all, not even in moderation. I picked tobacco because you said tobacco. You could have said heroine and I would have picked heroine. You could have said betel nut. And yes, unhealthy foods should be avoided. Heart disease can kill anyone, even muscle bound marathoners. My moderation of unhealthy foods is never, your moderation may be all the time.

If you research non-plant based foods you'll see that your body then creates free-radicals in your body. Your body then has to work to purge them. If your body doesn't they can eventually start to tweak your cells in such a way that you get cancer or other diseases. That's just the way it is with our imperfect bodies.

Like I said (and it was never responded to) would we sniff smog for an hour or two a week or chew on some good tasting petroleum grease? Or even a suck on a piece of candy that we found on the street?

I would love to see scriptures that backup the claim that we can chew and smoke, really. Even principles that don't necessarily spell it out.

I'll just leave this with a scripture, Isa 5:20.
 
Quite the straw man. As a christian, you are supposed to follow the laws of man as well as those of god, aren't you? One substance is legal, and one of god's creations. Your examples are chemicals created by man, and illegal.

Have you ever seen or ready about how meth is made? There's nothing natural about that dude. Human governments are in control only because God allows it to be so; Rom 31:1.

Your reasoning is the same stipulation that God made beautiful cliff's for us to jump off of to kill ourselves from. Or water to drown ourselves in. You can't have the excuse of using God's natural creation to harm yourself through misuse.
 
Matt 15:10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

Mark 7:18 And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” ( Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Tobacco is not the problem, it's man's lack of self-control and greed that is evil. The evil is not in the substance, as the teetotalers would argue about tobacco and alcohol.

Yes, I'm saying something dangerous should not be used at all, not even in moderation.
Alcohol is dangerous.

I'll just leave this with a scripture, Isa 5:20.

Right back at you. God has blessed us with a fine, sweet-smelling, aromatic plant. Don't call it's use evil.
 
Have you ever seen or ready about how meth is made? There's nothing natural about that dude. Human governments are in control only because God allows it to be so; Rom 31:1.

Your reasoning is the same stipulation that God made beautiful cliff's for us to jump off of to kill ourselves from. Or water to drown ourselves in. You can't have the excuse of using God's natural creation to harm yourself through misuse.
considering he was comparing the occasional use of tobacco to the occasional use of meth and crack, I think you missed my point.
 
I'm really addicted, which is why I can give up any nicotine source for lent and have no problem abstaining ... it's a reflection of society's demonization of tobacco. Again, McD's won't kill you right away, and the Bible doesn't forbid it, but it's bad for you. Be consistent.

Wow, don't get me started on personal denials for lent...

Let's say you drink water from cesspool. I mean it's still "water" right? Or how about eating uncooked meat?

I see where you're going about be trying to be reasonable :drunk:
 
Wow, don't get me started on personal denials for lent...
I don't practice lent religiously, but figured it was as good a time as any to practice self-denial and make sure I wasn't addicted. I didn't do it this year, but did the last two years without a problem, and I smoked more then.

Or how about eating uncooked meat?
I like sushi and raw kibbe. What exactly is your point?
 
This has gotten a little petty for my liking. Adios muchachos - unless it gets interesting again ;)
 
I don't practice lent religiously, but figured it was as good a time as any to practice self-denial and make sure I wasn't addicted. I didn't do it this year, but did the last two years without a problem, and I smoked more then.

I like sushi and raw kibbe. What exactly is your point?

Ah... yes... i meant something along the lines of hamburger or chicken. Sorry I wasn't clear :|. My mistake!
 
Matt 15:10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

Mark 7:18 And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” ( Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Scripture bomb! Woot!

In the first one Jesus was showing that the Pharisees misrepresented the purpose of the Sabbath and that their traditions invalidated God's Word. vs 9 explains "It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines." Though, even the Apostle's didn't get the meaning of the illustration at first, vs 15. :D

These scripture in reference to

Matthew 12:34 "Offspring of vipers, how can YOU speak good things, when you are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."

Mark 7:15 "There is nothing from outside a man that passes into him that can defile him; but the things that issue forth out of a man are the things that defile a man." (part of the account you quoted)

Ephesians 4:29 "Let a rotten saying not proceed out of your mouth, but whatever saying is good for building up as the need may be, that it may impart what is favorable to the hearers."

1 Timothy 4:4 "The reason for this is that every creation of God is fine, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving"

James 3:6 "Well, the tongue is a fire. The tongue is constituted a world of unrighteousness among our members, for it spots up all the body and sets the wheel of natural life aflame and it is set aflame by Gehenna".

Secondly, in Mark I think you're picking out that little point about "thus he declared all foods clean". :) Basically, the point is that a person does not become spiritually defiled by what he eats, such as by eating food with hands that were not washed according to some religious ritual. Mark 7:1-3 shows that the Pharisees and scribes had taken issue with Jesus because his disciples ate with "defiled hands, that is, unwashed ones" while the religious leaders 'did not eat unless they washed their hands up to the elbows.'

Mark’s comment would reasonably be in line with the historical environment present when Jesus said this. The Mosaic law was still in effect, so certain foods, such as pork, were 'unclean' to God’s servants. That continued to be the case until Jesus death brought to end the Law with its dietary restrictions about clean and unclean food.

Mark logically was talking about food that was "clean" from the standpoint of the then applicable Mosaic law. The tradition laden religious leaders felt that in eating this food they would be made unclean unless first they followed complex cleansing rituals. And they tried to impose on all believers these rituals that were not part of God's law but were man-made traditions. So, when Jesus pointed out the error of the religious leaders thinking, Mark could rightly add an observation as to the emphasis of what Jesus said. Food that the Mosaic law permitted would not defile the eater themselves just because he had not ritualistically washed his hands.

Yeah, it's kind of turning into a peeing match (not my intention). I don't want you to get the wrong impression Tenny, I'm just trying to reason with you based on what the scriptures say.
 
The only bad thing about having a thread where many preachers will be posting is that each reply is as long as last Sundays sermon :)
 
DoubleAught said:
The only bad thing about having a thread where many preachers will be posting is that each reply is as long as last Sundays sermon :)

One thing no has brought up is that Jesus was accused of being a glutton and a drunkard and I don't recall him denying it. ;)
 
One thing no has brought up is that Jesus was accused of being a glutton and a drunkard and I don't recall him denying it. ;)

Here Jesus is speaking in Matt 11:18,19 "For John didn’t spend his time eating and drinking, and you say, 'He's possessed by a demon.' The Son of Man, on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, 'He's a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!' But wisdom is shown to be right by its results."

Looks like he did actually :). And we all know Jesus wasn't a glutton or a drunkard, this is shown by his actions. Did he really need to continue to validate his eating and drinking in the eyes of these Pharisees who were continually hard hearted and unreasonable (for the most part)? How many times did they condemn Jesus for something that was a tradition on their part and not one based on the scriptures?

Remember how the Pharisees treated the people, Matt 9:36 "When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Do you think they would treat Jesus any different? No, but even more so on the harassing bit.

And I thought it was Evil Doctor Porkchop? (yes my kids watch Toy Story :); and I think I killed the thread)
 
I think enjoying wine and "hard drink" as all good and great as long as its not abused and one remains sober minded.

However if you were to go before God drunken or under the influence (Which I am sure you take as a given) then that would be a bad site in Gods eyes
 
I have another data point for you. I grew up non-churched, my wife grew up Lutheran. Neither of us were believers until about 10-ish years ago when we both had conversions and are now born-again evangelicals. We attended a lutheran church for a while, then grew dissatisfied with the direction the ELCA was taking and began looking for alternate churches. We got a book of the worlds religions and identified that Baptist was the closest to what we understood as truth in the scriptures. We started attending Baptist churches. The one we are at now has had several sermons about alcohol. They don't forbid drinking but encourage us not to, with the belief that it's a slippery slope and we "could sin" if we consume. The pastor has stated he doesn't drink. Ok, fast forward a ways and we are at a small group sitting around talking with some fellow believers and my son just out of the blue blurts out - "My parents drink beer!" We turned red. I said "Ok, yes, we like beer." A couple folks mentioned they didn't like beer, and one said, yuck. Nobody condemned us. One guy said he liked the taste of beer and he occasionally drinks beer and that was the end of it. With that said, we are very careful to be discreet, and we continue to drink beer. I won't drink beer in front of a church member unless they tell me it's ok though. I should note that our church is not Southern Baptist, but an independent Baptist church.
 
I'm a staunch C. E. Catholic, going to church only on Christmas and Easter. I have a lot more free weekends, since becoming a C. E. Catholic. So far, God's been OK with it. I really enjoy the parts in the bible that have to do with drinking wine and drunken orgies. I can only imagine the home wine makers taking their donkey or camel to Shadrak's Home Wine Making Tent. On the corner of Euphrates and Jezebel Ave. in downtown Babylon. Ordering up a few goat skin fermenters, a couple of Wine in a Bag kits. To make Herod's Camel Spit Date Wine and Moses Land of Milk and Honey Dromedary Droole. Then swing by Sodom and Gomorrah to catch a show. Stop by Ezekiel's tent, to see if he's OK, after seeing flying chariots. While staggering around the desert with a head full of bad wine. Then, head back to the tribe. But not before selling their brother to slavers and telling their father he was eaten by a giant lizard. The scriptures about debauchery, murder, war and pillaging are pretty good, too.... If I end up in front of the Great Magnet as a drunken sod, with brown in my pants, oh well... I'm sure there will be others in line, in the same condition. Holding a bible.
 
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