Ministry and beer

[Pappers_]

I've got an interesting example of beer and faith intersecting.

A week from tomorrow, my wife and I are hosting a beer tasting party at our home, four flights of three beers, each paired with food. This party is to raise funds for the campus ministry my son is involved in. We've got church friends, beer friends, and other friends all coming. Besides my wife, there will be at least three other clergy there. Should be a blast!

http://www.singingboysbrewing.com/agapebeertasting.html

 

[baptistbrewer]

When I hosted a bible study in my fraternity. We used to have beer and bible nights. To get the guys to actually come I would buy a 12 pack and tell them free beer. Then we would study the word.

 

[TyTanium]

I've got an interesting example of beer and faith intersecting.

A week from tomorrow, my wife and I are hosting a beer tasting party at our home, four flights of three beers, each paired with food. This party is to raise funds for the campus ministry my son is involved in. We've got church friends, beer friends, and other friends all coming. Besides my wife, there will be at least three other clergy there. Should be a blast!

http://www.singingboysbrewing.com/agapebeertasting.html

Wow, fantastic event!! Beer & ministry go well together.

And fantastic website, btw. You have some killer recipes on there!

 

[pnh2atl]

I along with two other guys that are members of the same church are opening a brewpub on the north side of Atlanta. We named it Reformation Brewery in part because we are reformed and in part because we are reformed theology geeks. But mostly because would like to reform how alcohol is viewed. We hope to open by the end of the year. We plan on a 3 bbl pilot system and a 15 bbl system. Georgia just changed some of the laws concerning brewpubs that will allow us to sell up to 5000 bbl in outside sales.

You can check us out at https://www.facebook.com/reformationbrewery

 

[maddprofessor]

I didn't read through the whole thread yet so forgive me if this has already been posted. There's a funny post over on Stuff Christians like about this subject and how to find out if other Christians also drink beer.

http://www.jonacuff.com/stuffchrist...-34-subtly-finding-out-if-you-drink-beer-too/

Here's a few lines from it:
"Studies show that 78% of all Christians hide their beer in the garage when people they don’t know that well come over. OK, I conducted the study and the research methods are suspect at best, but trust me, it’s true. Make up an excuse to go to the garage and then poke around."

 

[InkedAle]

I think there is a paradigm shift happening in a lot of the "conservative" churches. I grew up in, and still attend a Church of Christ. I have been noticing as the thirty somethings (whom I am a part of) are beginning to take over ministry roles the long held beliefs about alcohol are beginning to change.

I am completely open about brewing and drinking beer. Most of my close friends are members and leaders in the church. This same group of guys frequently get together for a few beers, and a few of them are also home brewers.

 

[TarVolon]

I know you scare-quoted "conservative," but it's hard to pin down exactly what that means regarding alcohol. When I talk about conservative churches, I tend to mean it either politically (most members are Republicans or pro-life libertarians) or theologically (hold to inerrancy of Scripture, hold particular stances on a number of issues that have been contentious lately).

And I'm pretty sure that neither of those are a good indicator as to how the church feels about alcohol. I say this because the last few churches I've been to have been PCA, which is very theologically conservative (and usually politically conservative too--my last pastor said that he had the most Democrats of any church in the denomination and the most Republicans of any church in Cambridge, MA). My experiences at said last three churches:

1. (Johnson City, TN) Mimosas served in the nave on Easter, on the grounds that celebrating the resurrection should be the best celebration ever, and that good morning celebrations have mimosas at them.
2. (Cambridge, MA) First time I went to Bible study, I was offered the choice between water or beer. Additionally, our Bible study met at a bar on at least three occasions.
3. (Chapel Hill, NC) At least three members of my Bible study are home-brewers

 

[stamandster]

I don't know if I'd mix bible study with alcohol. It's hard enough, sometimes, to understand what the bible says in general. Add a little impairment in there from alcohol and that's kind of disastrous to learning or retaining any knowledge. (as I quoted before 'whole mind, strength, soul')

I find it sad that people are more concerned about how humans feel than God, the creator, feels (or says they should or should not do) about who they are (for instance getting involved with politics or observing pagan holiday's).

Another thing that kind of get's me confused as to when people choose a religion is that it's almost like picking shoes for them. "Let me choose this one because it let's me be who I want to be without any rules or only the rules that I can live with, easy ones"! I think choosing a religion because it's the one most closest the way God wants us to worship him and live is far more important.

 

[TarVolon]

I don't know if I'd mix bible study with alcohol. It's hard enough, sometimes, to understand what the bible says in general. Add a little impairment in there from alcohol and that's kind of disastrous to learning or retaining any knowledge. (as I quoted before 'whole mind, strength, soul')

I find it sad that people are more concerned about how humans feel than God, the creator, feels (or says they should or should not do) about who they are (for instance getting involved with politics or observing pagan holiday's).

Another thing that kind of get's me confused as to when people choose a religion is that it's almost like picking shoes for them. "Let me choose this one because it let's me be who I want to be without any rules or only the rules that I can live with, easy ones"! I think choosing a religion because it's the one most closest the way God wants us to worship him and live is far more important.

I agree with the 2nd and 3rd paragraph. To the first, I'll say that I've never been to a Bible study where anyone has had more than one beer. It's more how when you go to someone's house, they ask if they can get you a glass of water, and you nurse that glass all evening? Like that, but with beer. And at those levels, your first concern isn't really an issue.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I along with two other guys that are members of the same church are opening a brewpub on the north side of Atlanta. We named it Reformation Brewery in part because we are reformed and in part because we are reformed theology geeks. But mostly because would like to reform how alcohol is viewed. We hope to open by the end of the year. We plan on a 3 bbl pilot system and a 15 bbl system. Georgia just changed some of the laws concerning brewpubs that will allow us to sell up to 5000 bbl in outside sales.

You can check us out at https://www.facebook.com/reformationbrewery

I think the website is messed up. It looks like a bottom banner is covering some text. Great idea, though. I just labelled a beer 'Warfield Best Bitter'.

 

[Taliesin]

I find that churches in the Reformed Theology camp tend to be perfectly ok with alcohol. The basic thought being, Christ consumed wine, in fact, He instituted the Lord's Supper with wine, and thus, we could do worse than to emulate Him, and certainly ought not create conditions in congregations that would bar our Lord from membership therein.

 

[bottlebomber]

I don't know if I'd mix bible study with alcohol. It's hard enough, sometimes, to understand what the bible says in general. Add a little impairment in there from alcohol and that's kind of disastrous to learning or retaining any knowledge. (as I quoted before 'whole mind, strength, soul')

I find it sad that people are more concerned about how humans feel than God, the creator, feels (or says they should or should not do) about who they are (for instance getting involved with politics or observing pagan holiday's).

Another thing that kind of get's me confused as to when people choose a religion is that it's almost like picking shoes for them. "Let me choose this one because it let's me be who I want to be without any rules or only the rules that I can live with, easy ones"! I think choosing a religion because it's the one most closest the way God wants us to worship him and live is far more important.

I agree with all 3 paragraphs. It's not so much about alcohol impairment as the way I view it, though that would certainly not be acceptable. From my understanding it has more to do with the reverence that needs to be shown when dealing with the holy scriptures.

Yes, alcohol was consumed in bible times by God fearing men. However there is no indication that recreational drinking and worship were ever combined. Quite to the contrary (Leviticus 10:9). In the situation of the Passover meal the wine was served as a matter of symbolism as were the other items.

The point being made is that there has been an awful lot of "I think this" or "We do it this way" going on on this thread. Usually these comments are made with a conspicuous absence of scriptural reference, showing whether God feels that such is acceptable. Remember, just because we are in a place of worship does not mean that we are in the "safety zone" so to speak.(Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[TarVolon]

Well I'm not sure of anyone who drinks before a worship service. But Bible studies aren't really given a lot of time in Scripture. It's certainly not clear that there's any reason to think that snacks and beverages would be off limits.

The reverence point is a solid one as it relates to worship services. I've referenced it myself in that context. But when studying the Bible in other contexts, should we dress up and abstain from alcohol? It seems like that'd throw a wrench in the whole "Bible on the nightstand" bit

 

[stamandster]

... But Bible studies aren't really given a lot of time in Scripture...

Then what's the point of Bible Study if you're not studying the Bible?? whaa??

... But when studying the Bible in other contexts, should we dress up and abstain from alcohol? It seems like that'd throw a wrench in the whole "Bible on the nightstand" bit.

I don't know too many people have a nightcap and then try to meditate on the bible However, I suppose it's my personal bible trained conscience that doesn't allow me to do so, others may. There's nothing in the bible that specifically says "do not drink alcohol in moderation and study the scriptures". But there are bible principles that help guide us to certain conclusions regarding when to drink and how we should view learning from the Bible.

I mean it's not only the stumbling of the flock of God we are worried about. But also stumbling those we don't even know. We may turn those away who may be interested in the Bible's message but have preconceived idea's regarding alcohol use and the bible. It's the image we portray that's important for those in the world to have nothing bad to say about us (as much as they try with false statements). I'm just thinking about Titus 2:8 and 1 Pet 2:12.

And, it'd be nice to "overthrow" the "deeply entrenched" thoughts of how alcohol is perceived by others, that it's not bad in moderation. But As Jehovah God's worshipers and Jesus Christ's followers our primary focus is the vindication Jehovah's name and sovereignty; not to unseat some thought some people have that has nothing to do with the emphasis of the bible.

Also, regarding the passover meal that Jesus instituted the Memorial arrangement at scholars believe that when he spoke of the wine symbolizing his blood that this was the fourth, and final, cup of wine shared during this of the passover meal. As it was customary for most Jews at that time to have four cups during the passover meal. Interesting huh?

 

[TarVolon]

Then what's the point of Bible Study if you're not studying the Bible?? whaa??

My statement was obviously unclear. The intended meaning was "Scripture doesn't have a lot to say about Bible studies."

I don't know too many people have a nightcap and then try to meditate on the bible

But do you know people who do their Bible reading after supper? This is the sort of situation I'm thinking of. Supper means alcohol. So if it's a problem to study the Bible after drinking alcohol, it's a problem to study the Bible after supper.

I was also getting at the reverence point bottlebomber brought up. Having the appropriate reverence is used to support not drinking beforehand and also putting on nice clothes (or at least not bumming around). If reverence demands both of those, we've ruled out "before morning shower," "after supper," and "in bed, before you go to sleep" as appropriate times to read the Bible. I tend to think the reverence point applies to worship and not to personal study or study with a small group. Or perhaps applies differently to personal study or study with a small group. But Scripture itself doesn't speak directly to the point.

However, I suppose it's my personal bible trained conscience that doesn't allow me to do so, others may. There's nothing in the bible that specifically says "do not drink alcohol in moderation and study the scriptures". But there are bible principles that help guide us to certain conclusions regarding when to drink and how we should view learning from the Bible.

I mean it's not only the stumbling of the flock of God we are worried about. But also stumbling those we don't even know. We may turn those away who may be interested in the Bible's message but have preconceived idea's regarding alcohol use and the bible. It's the image we portray that's important for those in the world to have nothing bad to say about us (as much as they try with false statements). I'm just thinking about Titus 2:8 and 1 Pet 2:12.

And, it'd be nice to "overthrow" the "deeply entrenched" thoughts of how alcohol is perceived by others, that it's not bad in moderation. But As Jehovah God's worshipers and Jesus Christ's followers our primary focus is the vindication Jehovah's name and sovereignty; not to unseat some thought some people have that has nothing to do with the emphasis of the bible.

Also, regarding the passover meal that Jesus instituted the Memorial arrangement at scholars believe that when he spoke of the wine symbolizing his blood that this was the fourth, and final, cup of wine shared during this of the passover meal. As it was customary for most Jews at that time to have four cups during the passover meal. Interesting huh?

Good stuff

 

[cfrazier77]

As a pastor myself, I see that there are two different issues floating around in this thread. One is what a Christian is allowed to do with Scripture being the authority on it. This one has been discussed very well. The freedoms we have in Christ should not be taken away. It is wrong for one to drink "in front of" a weaker brother, but that does not mean that the weaker brother can force one who is not weak to not drink outside of his presence. The second is what a "pastor" should do. As pastors we are called by God to not look at our own "rights" first but rather then needs of our flocks that He has put us over. This does not mean that pastors have to do everything culturally that their church members want them to do. Rather pastors are to be in prayer and discern what God wants them to do on issues that are permissible in relation to their flock. God may want one pastor to not drink because that congregation could not handle it yet. God may want another pastor to drink, and even brew, and be public about it for the sake of reforming a congregation that is ready for it.

Being called to the pastorate is a lifetime of putting others before yourself. But, it is a very rewarding calling and a true privilege to be allowed to do so.

 

[bottlebomber]

I definitely understand and agree with the idea of making sacrifices so as not to stumble others, even when scriptural principles are not at stake. Timothy as an example submitted to circumcision by Paul before entering into his preaching assignment, as there were many Jews in the territories they were entering into. Think about that for a minute.

As far as bible studies not being mentioned in the bible, well, "bibles" did not exist in the first century as scrolls were still the primary method of transcribing information. It wasn't until probably the 300's that the codex gained a foothold. But as far as a baptized follower of Christ using the scriptures to reason with and to teach those with an interest - really? Not much reference to be found? It is not a stretch by any means to equate this to what we would consider a bible study today.

The bible also does not touch on tobacco or cocaine use as these things were absent in this area. However it's easy to apply the scriptural principle that these things are "defilements of the flesh". There are some basic bible principles that are extremely easy to understand and really do not require any stretch in interpretation. I feel that this is one of those.

 

[stamandster]

But do you know people who do their Bible reading after supper? This is the sort of situation I'm thinking of. Supper means alcohol. So if it's a problem to study the Bible after drinking alcohol, it's a problem to study the Bible after supper.

I was also getting at the reverence point bottlebomber brought up. Having the appropriate reverence is used to support not drinking beforehand and also putting on nice clothes (or at least not bumming around). If reverence demands both of those, we've ruled out "before morning shower," "after supper," and "in bed, before you go to sleep" as appropriate times to read the Bible. I tend to think the reverence point applies to worship and not to personal study or study with a small group. Or perhaps applies differently to personal study or study with a small group. But Scripture itself doesn't speak directly to the point.

I hear you I understand what you're saying now. We can't always choose when we talk about the bible or need to read it. Perhaps in other cultures (European maybe?) it's perfectly acceptable to have a little wine with reading scriptures. In some it may not be. I suppose it's my personal preference to try and not mix alcohol w scripture. For me I'd wait till after personal study to drink something or wait some time after dinner to study so I know I could be focused. But like I said that's my personal conscience, others will and can be different.

If I've been out with friends and had a beer at the establishment and someone asked me a question about the bible I don't think I'd say "well I can't talk with you right now because I've had a beer". But then again I wouldn't go out of my way to have a beer while reading the bible in public.

I know of many people who read the bible in their pajamas, during dinner, at work, etc (I have been one of them too!). But in general, when at all possible, I think that we try to make sure that our minds are focused in order to retain and meditate on what we are reading. And that goes for anything; for instance trying to do so in the same room as the TV blaring or kids screaming. We try to make our environment conducive to bible study; a quiet place where we can think clearly. But, sometimes it is out of our control, sometimes it's not and we choose to study in the room with the kids screaming

 

[stamandster]

... Timothy as an example submitted to circumcision by Paul before entering into his preaching assignment, as there were many Jews in the territories they were entering into..

Could you imagine being a teenage/young adult getting circumcised without the medical care we get today!! yikes!

 

[landshark]

Could you imagine being a teenage/young adult getting circumcised without the medical care we get today!! yikes!

 

[stamandster]

Half off! Today only!

 

[ChadC]

I read all these posts and breathed a sigh of relief that we are atheists. So much simpler to live uncontrolled by imaginary forces.
No offense to you believers out there (of which are many, don't fret).
Keep on brewing no matter what you believe.
RDWHAHB
peace

 

[bottlebomber]

Interesting that as an atheist you would be interested enough in what's been discussed to read ALL the posts - probably an hour of your time easily. And some deeper things have been discussed as well. Either you have an abundance of free time on your hands, which I doubt, or you are more interested in the subject than your title would suggest

 

[landshark]

Interesting that as an atheist you would be interested enough in what's been discussed to read ALL the posts - probably an hour of your time easily. And some deeper things have been discussed as well. Either you have an abundance of free time on your hands, which I doubt, or you are more interested in the subject than your title would suggest

Don't get sucked into the trap of discussing beliefs. That will shut this thread down... I'm enjoying this too much.

 

[bottlebomber]

Don't get sucked into the trap of discussing beliefs. That will shut this thread down... I'm enjoying this too much.

I had the same thought right after sending. There will be no debate coming from my corner.

 

[tennesseean_87]

The bible also does not touch on tobacco or cocaine use as these things were absent in this area. However it's easy to apply the scriptural principle that these things are "defilements of the flesh".

Really? Tobacco is a defilement of the flesh? I strongly disagree. Before I started brewing, I spent a lot of time smoking pipes and exploring/discussing various tobaccos. Maybe some day I'll grow, cure and blend my own, although that's more akin to growing and malting your own barely for beer.

 

[stamandster]

Really? Tobacco is a defilement of the flesh? I strongly disagree. Before I started brewing, I spent a lot of time smoking pipes and exploring/discussing various tobaccos. Maybe some day I'll grow, cure and blend my own, although that's more akin to growing and malting your own barely for beer.

This is beginning to sound like that SNL skit for the news "Really Seth!?" lol

Yes, really Tobacco and similar products are proven to destroy the body. The bible has many different scriptures that speak to keeping the body clean and as pure as we can.

I mean, would you inhale exhaust smog if it smelled and tasted good knowing that it could kill you? How would that show God that you value the gift of life he gave you?

I guess this thread has been "saved" so far because we haven't had athiests waving the "your stuff is as real as santa" flag. And I appreciate it

 

[tennesseean_87]

So fast food is out too, because it will kill you? So much for all the big, fat-filled church potlucks which are actually sinful because fat is not good for you and will kill you. Ice cream--fatty sugar that will kill you. I believe alcohol is proven to be harmful to the liver, I guess OP and the rest of us should quit brewing and consuming.

I don't go in for the above logic, so I'll keep enjoying my pipes, cigars, and cigarettes just like my beer--in moderation. I smoke about once a week, if that, so I'm not scared of dying any time soon. What's more, scripture does not enjoin abstinence from tobacco any more than alcohol, so man may not bind my conscience in that regard. If you are convicted otherwise, by all means, abstain.

 

[chefmike]

I think the website is messed up. It looks like a bottom banner is covering some text. Great idea, though. I just labelled a beer 'Warfield Best Bitter'.

Thanks. We are in the middle of bringing up a new site as we transition from a Friday night fellowship into an operational pub. A kickstarter style campaign will be coming online in the next few weeks, so if you want some reformation brewery schwag, thank you for your support.

I really enjoyed reading through this thread. We are in this for many of the reasons discussed here: sharing a love of a process and product that has been connotated into hiding in the garage. And as the redeemed of the Lord, I want to stand in the light and share my joy of the abundant life. The conversations and struggles are not always easy, as alcohol and the surrounding issues dig deep into many people's stories.

I have a love of Christ first, a love of my family, work, and community follows after that. My love of brewing is an expression of the joy I have of life in community, that many come together to make a whole expression of life.

Both the craft brewing community and home brewers evidence a generous spirit of community that this world is hungry for, regardless of professed belief. I love being in the middle of groups of people who are being REAL, messy as that is.

I agree with the observations that some aspects of life are in transition as the thirty somethings take greater leadership roles in various organizations. I will continue to lead and make decisions in ways that will likely look different from those who came before me. I expect I will make mistakes along the way.

Thanks for the lively discussion here: having a place to come together and share life and ideas is one of my favorite parts of hbt and the internet at large.

And as to the band: the last time I saw ministry was in Miami at Lollapalooza in 1992 with Pearl Jam right before hurricane Andrew. Crazy good shows. Chilli peppers may have been there. But that might have been the previous year.

 

[Grossy]

I'm certainly no expert on the this subject.

But if there is a problem with alcohol and Christianity, how do you explain the Trappist Monks, who have been making for centuries some of the best beer in the world?


From Wikipedia:
A Trappist beer is a beer brewed by or under control of Trappist monks. There are a total of 174 Trappist monasteries worldwide (as of April 2011); only seven (six in Belgium, one in the Netherlands) produce Trappist beer and are authorized to label their beers with the Authentic Trappist Product logo that indicates a compliance to the various rules of the International Trappist Association.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I'm certainly no expert on the this subject.

But if there is a problem with alcohol and Christianity, how do you explain the Trappist Monks, who have been making for centuries some of the best beer in the world?


From Wikipedia:
A Trappist beer is a beer brewed by or under control of Trappist monks. There are a total of 174 Trappist monasteries worldwide (as of April 2011); only seven (six in Belgium, one in the Netherlands) produce Trappist beer and are authorized to label their beers with the Authentic Trappist Product logo that indicates a compliance to the various rules of the International Trappist Association.

Christianity had various subcultures within that disagree over this. Southern Baptists and other fundamentalists would say those monks have missed a clear teaching in scripture against alcohol. I think they're wrong about what scripture says, though. By-and-large I don't think Catholics have a problem with alcohol (though I am by no means an expert in Catholic teaching and practice), and Protestants don't have monks. Some of the protestants that don't like drinking might just say that's another thing that the Catholics got wrong, and something other protestants (Presbies, Lutherans) have compromised with Rome on.

Taking your logic to the extreme--many Christians have done awful things, like the crusades, but that doesn't mean every Christian thinks we should keep doing that.

 

[stamandster]

So fast food is out too, because it will kill you? So much for all the big, fat-filled church potlucks which are actually sinful because fat is not good for you and will kill you. Ice cream--fatty sugar that will kill you. I believe alcohol is proven to be harmful to the liver, I guess OP and the rest of us should quit brewing and consuming.

I don't go in for the above logic, so I'll keep enjoying my pipes, cigars, and cigarettes just like my beer--in moderation. I smoke about once a week, if that, so I'm not scared of dying any time soon. What's more, scripture does not enjoin abstinence from tobacco any more than alcohol, so man may not bind my conscience in that regard. If you are convicted otherwise, by all means, abstain.

Who said that fast food in moderation will kill you? or Church Potlucks in moderation? Or Ice-cream in moderation? Or sugar in moderation? Did you research liver disease from Alcohol consumption to really understand how it comes about?

Though, let's take it a step further, our imperfect body essentially stops working over the course of our lives of only 60-100 years. See my point? Anything or everything can "kill" you in some way.

I commend you for trying to be moderate, as Gal 5:22 speaks of the fruitages of the spirit, that we are display "self-control" and 1 Cor 9:24-27 speaks of "self-control" as a runner does to prepare for a race.

Speaking of those who are gluttons, Prov 28:7 warns against having "companionship with gluttons".

Don't we agree, though, that eating is a natural and proper, needed for our bodies to survive (even some alcoholic beverages have their abilities to help; provided we don't over-indulge in either). In contrast smoking tobacco is not natural. How many chemicals in an ice-cream are poisonous to us? However there is a litany of chemicals in tobacco, 250 are known to poisonous, carcinogenic cancer causing.

Like I said, would we sniff smog out of the tailpipe of the car for a couple hours, even every other week, knowing it will kill us eventually? It is your body, do as you wish. But, don't make the claim that tobacco and food has the same affect on your body.

 

[ACbrewer]

By-and-large I don't think Catholics have a problem with alcohol (though I am by no means an expert in Catholic teaching and practice)....

If by problem you mean attitude to Alcohol, the Catholic Church would say several of the following. 1. Moderation is key. 2. Alcohol is a luxuray (compared to say food, but not when compared to say diamonds) so if it keeps you - or those you are responsible for - from eating, then you have to fix priorities.

If by problem, you mean drunkness, then I'd say the members (both religous and lay) are probably about the same % as the rest of the world.

 

[bagpiperjosh]

I'm in seminary and a candidate for ordination with the Methodist church. I just received word that I'm receiving an appointment as pastor at a small rural church in NC this upcoming summer. While I have no theological/moral complications with brewing, drinking and being a pastor, I'm wondering what the church I'll be pastoring might think.

Knowing that this is a forum for homebrewers, I'm not expecting anybody on here to have any objections to a minister who brews and drinks. My concern is what would all of your grandmas say about it.

And... discuss.

pray about it, talk to the board of elders (or whatever you call it there) about it

 

[tennesseean_87]

Who said that fast food in moderation will kill you? or Church Potlucks in moderation? Or Ice-cream in moderation? Or sugar in moderation? Did you research liver disease from Alcohol consumption to really understand how it comes about?

Though, let's take it a step further, our imperfect body essentially stops working over the course of our lives of only 60-100 years. See my point? Anything or everything can "kill" you in some way.

I commend you for trying to be moderate, as Gal 5:22 speaks of the fruitages of the spirit, that we are display "self-control" and 1 Cor 9:24-27 speaks of "self-control" as a runner does to prepare for a race.

Speaking of those who are gluttons, Prov 28:7 warns against having "companionship with gluttons".

Don't we agree, though, that eating is a natural and proper, needed for our bodies to survive (even some alcoholic beverages have their abilities to help; provided we don't over-indulge in either). In contrast smoking tobacco is not natural. How many chemicals in an ice-cream are poisonous to us? However there is a litany of chemicals in tobacco, 250 are known to poisonous, carcinogenic cancer causing.

Like I said, would we sniff smog out of the tailpipe of the car for a couple hours, even every other week, knowing it will kill us eventually? It is your body, do as you wish. But, don't make the claim that tobacco and food has the same affect on your body.

I was not saying those things were wrong in moderation, you were the one saying that something dangerous when immoderately used should not be used at all. I smoke tobacco moderately, drink moderately, and eat unhealthy food moderately. I assume you do the same, except for smoking tobacco. Is fast-food natural? Will smoking a cigarette once or twice a week (moderation) kill you? You say that anything will in a way, but why is tobacco picked out as the one that can't be done in moderation, while eating unhealthy food can be done in moderation. Food is necessary for survival, but is McDonald's necessary?

 

[bottlebomber]

Will smoking a cigarette once or twice a week (moderation) kill you? You say that anything will in a way, but why is tobacco picked out as the one that can't be done in moderation, while eating unhealthy food can be done in moderation.

Now you've gone from smoking not even once a week, to smoking once or twice a week. When someone becomes as defensive about something as you have it is not unreasonable to think there may be an addiction.

The evidence is that smoking even a couple of cigarettes a week is observably damaging to your health. Cigarettes are thought to be as physically addictive as heroin.

By your logic, crack cocaine and methamphetamine should also be appropriate for a Christian to use, if only done in moderation.

 

[stamandster]

Now you've gone from smoking not even once a week, to smoking once or twice a week. When someone becomes as defensive about something as you have it is not unreasonable to think there may be an addiction.

The evidence is that smoking even a couple of cigarettes a week is observably damaging to your health. Cigarettes are thought to be as physically addictive as heroin.

By your logic, crack cocaine and methamphetamine should also be appropriate for a Christian to use, if only done in moderation.

Akin to saying "I'll slit my wrists only once or twice a month for fun, I mean the bible doesn't say "don't slit your wrists!"" Hey as long as it doesn't kill you right away and the bible doesn't spell it out to you like a your a 4 year old, everything cool if it's in moderation

 

[tennesseean_87]

I'm really addicted, which is why I can give up any nicotine source for lent and have no problem abstaining, and why I'll often go weeks on end without smoking at all when I get too busy to enjoy them. I have also given up smoking during sports seasons for months on end.

Maybe I don't have an addictive personality, but I've been smoking for years and I'm not addicted. The idea that any tobacco consumption is sinful is not biblical, it's a reflection of society's demonization of tobacco. Again, McD's won't kill you right away, and the Bible doesn't forbid it, but it's bad for you. Be consistent.

 

[Mongrel]

By your logic, crack cocaine and methamphetamine should also be appropriate for a Christian to use, if only done in moderation.

Quite the straw man. As a christian, you are supposed to follow the laws of man as well as those of god, aren't you? One substance is legal, and one of god's creations. Your examples are chemicals created by man, and illegal.

 

[spearko520]

By your logic, crack cocaine and methamphetamine should also be appropriate for a Christian to use, if only done in moderation.

thank you. i have been waiting for a voice of reason to echo what i've always felt to be true. Now i can let er RIP!!!! woooo whooo!