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Akin to saying "I'll slit my wrists only once or twice a month for fun, I mean the bible doesn't say "don't slit your wrists!"" Hey as long as it doesn't kill you right away and the bible doesn't spell it out to you like a your a 4 year old, everything cool if it's in moderation :)

YES. - this too???- PARTY TIME!
 
I was not saying those things were wrong in moderation, you were the one saying that something dangerous when immoderately used should not be used at all. I smoke tobacco moderately, drink moderately, and eat unhealthy food moderately. I assume you do the same, except for smoking tobacco. Is fast-food natural? Will smoking a cigarette once or twice a week (moderation) kill you? You say that anything will in a way, but why is tobacco picked out as the one that can't be done in moderation, while eating unhealthy food can be done in moderation. Food is necessary for survival, but is McDonald's necessary?

Yes, I'm saying something dangerous should not be used at all, not even in moderation. I picked tobacco because you said tobacco. You could have said heroine and I would have picked heroine. You could have said betel nut. And yes, unhealthy foods should be avoided. Heart disease can kill anyone, even muscle bound marathoners. My moderation of unhealthy foods is never, your moderation may be all the time.

If you research non-plant based foods you'll see that your body then creates free-radicals in your body. Your body then has to work to purge them. If your body doesn't they can eventually start to tweak your cells in such a way that you get cancer or other diseases. That's just the way it is with our imperfect bodies.

Like I said (and it was never responded to) would we sniff smog for an hour or two a week or chew on some good tasting petroleum grease? Or even a suck on a piece of candy that we found on the street?

I would love to see scriptures that backup the claim that we can chew and smoke, really. Even principles that don't necessarily spell it out.

I'll just leave this with a scripture, Isa 5:20.
 
Quite the straw man. As a christian, you are supposed to follow the laws of man as well as those of god, aren't you? One substance is legal, and one of god's creations. Your examples are chemicals created by man, and illegal.

Have you ever seen or ready about how meth is made? There's nothing natural about that dude. Human governments are in control only because God allows it to be so; Rom 31:1.

Your reasoning is the same stipulation that God made beautiful cliff's for us to jump off of to kill ourselves from. Or water to drown ourselves in. You can't have the excuse of using God's natural creation to harm yourself through misuse.
 
Matt 15:10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

Mark 7:18 And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” ( Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Tobacco is not the problem, it's man's lack of self-control and greed that is evil. The evil is not in the substance, as the teetotalers would argue about tobacco and alcohol.

Yes, I'm saying something dangerous should not be used at all, not even in moderation.
Alcohol is dangerous.

I'll just leave this with a scripture, Isa 5:20.

Right back at you. God has blessed us with a fine, sweet-smelling, aromatic plant. Don't call it's use evil.
 
Have you ever seen or ready about how meth is made? There's nothing natural about that dude. Human governments are in control only because God allows it to be so; Rom 31:1.

Your reasoning is the same stipulation that God made beautiful cliff's for us to jump off of to kill ourselves from. Or water to drown ourselves in. You can't have the excuse of using God's natural creation to harm yourself through misuse.
considering he was comparing the occasional use of tobacco to the occasional use of meth and crack, I think you missed my point.
 
I'm really addicted, which is why I can give up any nicotine source for lent and have no problem abstaining ... it's a reflection of society's demonization of tobacco. Again, McD's won't kill you right away, and the Bible doesn't forbid it, but it's bad for you. Be consistent.

Wow, don't get me started on personal denials for lent...

Let's say you drink water from cesspool. I mean it's still "water" right? Or how about eating uncooked meat?

I see where you're going about be trying to be reasonable :drunk:
 
Wow, don't get me started on personal denials for lent...
I don't practice lent religiously, but figured it was as good a time as any to practice self-denial and make sure I wasn't addicted. I didn't do it this year, but did the last two years without a problem, and I smoked more then.

Or how about eating uncooked meat?
I like sushi and raw kibbe. What exactly is your point?
 
This has gotten a little petty for my liking. Adios muchachos - unless it gets interesting again ;)
 
I don't practice lent religiously, but figured it was as good a time as any to practice self-denial and make sure I wasn't addicted. I didn't do it this year, but did the last two years without a problem, and I smoked more then.

I like sushi and raw kibbe. What exactly is your point?

Ah... yes... i meant something along the lines of hamburger or chicken. Sorry I wasn't clear :|. My mistake!
 
Matt 15:10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

Mark 7:18 And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” ( Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Scripture bomb! Woot!

In the first one Jesus was showing that the Pharisees misrepresented the purpose of the Sabbath and that their traditions invalidated God's Word. vs 9 explains "It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines." Though, even the Apostle's didn't get the meaning of the illustration at first, vs 15. :D

These scripture in reference to

Matthew 12:34 "Offspring of vipers, how can YOU speak good things, when you are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."

Mark 7:15 "There is nothing from outside a man that passes into him that can defile him; but the things that issue forth out of a man are the things that defile a man." (part of the account you quoted)

Ephesians 4:29 "Let a rotten saying not proceed out of your mouth, but whatever saying is good for building up as the need may be, that it may impart what is favorable to the hearers."

1 Timothy 4:4 "The reason for this is that every creation of God is fine, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving"

James 3:6 "Well, the tongue is a fire. The tongue is constituted a world of unrighteousness among our members, for it spots up all the body and sets the wheel of natural life aflame and it is set aflame by Gehenna".

Secondly, in Mark I think you're picking out that little point about "thus he declared all foods clean". :) Basically, the point is that a person does not become spiritually defiled by what he eats, such as by eating food with hands that were not washed according to some religious ritual. Mark 7:1-3 shows that the Pharisees and scribes had taken issue with Jesus because his disciples ate with "defiled hands, that is, unwashed ones" while the religious leaders 'did not eat unless they washed their hands up to the elbows.'

Mark’s comment would reasonably be in line with the historical environment present when Jesus said this. The Mosaic law was still in effect, so certain foods, such as pork, were 'unclean' to God’s servants. That continued to be the case until Jesus death brought to end the Law with its dietary restrictions about clean and unclean food.

Mark logically was talking about food that was "clean" from the standpoint of the then applicable Mosaic law. The tradition laden religious leaders felt that in eating this food they would be made unclean unless first they followed complex cleansing rituals. And they tried to impose on all believers these rituals that were not part of God's law but were man-made traditions. So, when Jesus pointed out the error of the religious leaders thinking, Mark could rightly add an observation as to the emphasis of what Jesus said. Food that the Mosaic law permitted would not defile the eater themselves just because he had not ritualistically washed his hands.

Yeah, it's kind of turning into a peeing match (not my intention). I don't want you to get the wrong impression Tenny, I'm just trying to reason with you based on what the scriptures say.
 
The only bad thing about having a thread where many preachers will be posting is that each reply is as long as last Sundays sermon :)
 
DoubleAught said:
The only bad thing about having a thread where many preachers will be posting is that each reply is as long as last Sundays sermon :)

One thing no has brought up is that Jesus was accused of being a glutton and a drunkard and I don't recall him denying it. ;)
 
One thing no has brought up is that Jesus was accused of being a glutton and a drunkard and I don't recall him denying it. ;)

Here Jesus is speaking in Matt 11:18,19 "For John didn’t spend his time eating and drinking, and you say, 'He's possessed by a demon.' The Son of Man, on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, 'He's a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!' But wisdom is shown to be right by its results."

Looks like he did actually :). And we all know Jesus wasn't a glutton or a drunkard, this is shown by his actions. Did he really need to continue to validate his eating and drinking in the eyes of these Pharisees who were continually hard hearted and unreasonable (for the most part)? How many times did they condemn Jesus for something that was a tradition on their part and not one based on the scriptures?

Remember how the Pharisees treated the people, Matt 9:36 "When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Do you think they would treat Jesus any different? No, but even more so on the harassing bit.

And I thought it was Evil Doctor Porkchop? (yes my kids watch Toy Story :); and I think I killed the thread)
 
I think enjoying wine and "hard drink" as all good and great as long as its not abused and one remains sober minded.

However if you were to go before God drunken or under the influence (Which I am sure you take as a given) then that would be a bad site in Gods eyes
 
I have another data point for you. I grew up non-churched, my wife grew up Lutheran. Neither of us were believers until about 10-ish years ago when we both had conversions and are now born-again evangelicals. We attended a lutheran church for a while, then grew dissatisfied with the direction the ELCA was taking and began looking for alternate churches. We got a book of the worlds religions and identified that Baptist was the closest to what we understood as truth in the scriptures. We started attending Baptist churches. The one we are at now has had several sermons about alcohol. They don't forbid drinking but encourage us not to, with the belief that it's a slippery slope and we "could sin" if we consume. The pastor has stated he doesn't drink. Ok, fast forward a ways and we are at a small group sitting around talking with some fellow believers and my son just out of the blue blurts out - "My parents drink beer!" We turned red. I said "Ok, yes, we like beer." A couple folks mentioned they didn't like beer, and one said, yuck. Nobody condemned us. One guy said he liked the taste of beer and he occasionally drinks beer and that was the end of it. With that said, we are very careful to be discreet, and we continue to drink beer. I won't drink beer in front of a church member unless they tell me it's ok though. I should note that our church is not Southern Baptist, but an independent Baptist church.
 
I'm a staunch C. E. Catholic, going to church only on Christmas and Easter. I have a lot more free weekends, since becoming a C. E. Catholic. So far, God's been OK with it. I really enjoy the parts in the bible that have to do with drinking wine and drunken orgies. I can only imagine the home wine makers taking their donkey or camel to Shadrak's Home Wine Making Tent. On the corner of Euphrates and Jezebel Ave. in downtown Babylon. Ordering up a few goat skin fermenters, a couple of Wine in a Bag kits. To make Herod's Camel Spit Date Wine and Moses Land of Milk and Honey Dromedary Droole. Then swing by Sodom and Gomorrah to catch a show. Stop by Ezekiel's tent, to see if he's OK, after seeing flying chariots. While staggering around the desert with a head full of bad wine. Then, head back to the tribe. But not before selling their brother to slavers and telling their father he was eaten by a giant lizard. The scriptures about debauchery, murder, war and pillaging are pretty good, too.... If I end up in front of the Great Magnet as a drunken sod, with brown in my pants, oh well... I'm sure there will be others in line, in the same condition. Holding a bible.
 
I'm in seminary and a candidate for ordination with the Methodist church. I just received word that I'm receiving an appointment as pastor at a small rural church in NC this upcoming summer. While I have no theological/moral complications with brewing, drinking and being a pastor, I'm wondering what the church I'll be pastoring might think.

Knowing that this is a forum for homebrewers, I'm not expecting anybody on here to have any objections to a minister who brews and drinks. My concern is what would all of your grandmas say about it.

And... discuss.

Unfortunately even though the bible teaches us to act in the exact opposite manner generally Christians are some of the most judgmental people you'll ever deal with.

I used to tour in a Christian punk band. I did so for almost 5 years. Even though punk rockers are extremely judgmental and typically hate spirituality and organized religion we got more crap from the Christians for being punk than we did the punk rockers for being Christian. It's ridiculous. Even though Jesus taught us to love our enemies those who were supposed to be my brothers and sisters treated me much worse than they treated "the enemy".

To this day I still follow the teachings of Christ (to the best of my ability) and I love making and drinking quality beer. However, even though the bible makes several mentions of drinking wine and Jesus even turned water into wine, many Christians will judge you for even mentioning the "Devil's brew" without utter disdain.

Unfortunately I can not speak highly of my brothers and sisters in Christ in this regard. Because of this (especially being in NC) I'd keep this hobby away from the pulpit. That's just my opinion though. Feel free to do as you wish. If you're ever in the Phoenix area doing a sermon let me know. I'll come out if possible.
 
Most of the anti alcohol rhetoric spewed today was begat during the time leading up to the prohibition. Until then, most all churches and their congregation had no problem with people drinking in moderation. The Prohibitionists spent quite a lot of energy brainwashing folks into thinking that any kind or amount of alcohol was a sin.
 
Unfortunately even though the bible teaches us to act in the exact opposite manner generally Christians are some of the most judgmental people you'll ever deal with.

I used to tour in a Christian punk band. I did so for almost 5 years. Even though punk rockers are extremely judgmental and typically hate spirituality and organized religion we got more crap from the Christians for being punk than we did the punk rockers for being Christian. It's ridiculous. Even though Jesus taught us to love our enemies those who were supposed to be my brothers and sisters treated me much worse than they treated "the enemy".

To this day I still follow the teachings of Christ (to the best of my ability) and I love making and drinking quality beer. However, even though the bible makes several mentions of drinking wine and Jesus even turned water into wine, many Christians will judge you for even mentioning the "Devil's brew" without utter disdain.

Unfortunately I can not speak highly of my brothers and sisters in Christ in this regard. Because of this (especially being in NC) I'd keep this hobby away from the pulpit. That's just my opinion though. Feel free to do as you wish. If you're ever in the Phoenix area doing a sermon let me know. I'll come out if possible.

You're not Jay from FBS are you?
 
Most of the anti alcohol rhetoric spewed today was begat during the time leading up to the prohibition. Until then, most all churches and their congregation had no problem with people drinking in moderation. The Prohibitionists spent quite a lot of energy brainwashing folks into thinking that any kind or amount of alcohol was a sin.

Very true. And a shame really.
 
Haha just a little. And I won't kill you, I'm Curt (the bassist) of the Filthy 42s. I read your post, saw you were from the Phoenix area, then saw your name was Jay in your profile. Small world
 
OP...

Best wishes and prayers on your journey shepherding God's flock.

Father gave us everything.

Including,

Barley, hops, yeast and water.

Peace and tranquility to you.

IJCIP
 
Sorry to bring back such an old thread...

I have been looking for ways to incorporate beer and ministry and came across this thread.

I will say that I obviously see nothing wrong with being of faith and drinking...in moderation. Though I would never choose the best beer in the world over my faith.

I am a chaplain for our local fire department and attend/serve at my local church

I think by now, most people at my church know that I brew my own beer, yet I am still careful who I talk about it in detail...through other ministries here, I have learned that even some of the senior pastoral staff have once struggled with alcohol addiction...and hopelessness and addiction is often times what calls people to seek faith.

Being a chaplain means that I minister outside the walls of the church, when I am out in public...its only water, or other non alcoholic beverages in clearly visible containers. If I happen to be performing a wedding its the same thing...at least until most people have left. (at which point, most still there know that I'm usually the one who supplied the beer everyone drank).

With all that said...I would love some input from others about how your beer focused ministries are :)

Cheers,
 
I would echo the sentiment that beer is something that should be redeemed as a gift from God, not something to be hidden. It's not as if it is in anyway comparable to meat offered to idols. I for one LOVE bacon and thank God for Christ's work that cleansed what was unclean so that it is permissible to enjoy it (in all seriousness, but obviously not as much as my soul). I find it repulsive that some have called unclean what God has never called unclean. While habitual drunkenness is spoken against, God actually instructed the consumption of strong drink in celebration and religious observance. Furthermore, several passages of Scripture would indicate that there are very appropriate times to indulge in some mild alcohol merriment (e.g. weddings and celebratory feasts).

All that said/repeated, I have led theological discussion groups that met weekly in a pub. I found topics that may have normally been awkward, tense, or controversial were discussed more even tempered in the atmosphere of a group gathering around to share a pint. Also, I have considered doing a how-to-brew group, where I teach people how to brew and use the elements of brewing as spiritual or discipleship metaphors. I think there are some very cool lessons that can be illustrated through brewing principles.
 
I, too, have been wondering if there was a good way to use this hobby as a way to advance the work of God. I currently share the spoils of my brewing labors with several men from my Church, but we enjoy the brew on a strictly secular level right now. I have thought about inviting the men from my men's fellowship for a brew-day, but I have no idea how many of them (other than a select few) that might share that interest. Any ideas about how to combine ministry and beer in an honest, Christ-centered way would be greatly appreciated.
 
All my after church functions/community groups are over drinks (mostly beer). I believe it was Calvin that worked in a few hundred gallons of winer per year into his salary (may have been Luther). I take my faith very seriously and praise God for beer and fine spirits (in moderation of course - most of the time anyway...)!
 
I agree that this is a touchy subject. It shouldn't be but it is. As a once catholic turned baptist turned pentacostal turned athiest turned non-denominational, I suggest simply following the path you feel is right.

We all walk the same earth but everyones life is a different trial with different reasons and purposes. It simply isn't a black and white matter and nothing in this world is. All things are shades of gray. The color turns darker or lighter depending on the company present.

If your new church has several recovering alcoholics that find strength everyday in their religion...well. You see, it may not be just about granny. On the other hand, you might find a bunch of folks that also enjoy homebrewing and no recovering alcoholics.
 
I'm Lutheran, very involved with my church, so I don't face this issue but certainly understand this difficulty. I loved the local Methodist church, but could not ethically join a church that has an anti-alcohol stance.

Funny story, my brother in law joined his wife's baptist church many years ago, didn't realize they are anti-alcohol. He was very confused as to why nobody at his first church party would drink the very nice wine he had bought. Doh!
 

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