Ministry and beer

[spearko520]

As far as I'm concerned no man can truly judge another.

that's the real big part of christian teaching that is often overlooked in its "practice". i wish there were more theologians out there...

 

[TyTanium]

...
If I were you, I would concentrate on my higher calling and let the rest work itself out later as you go along.
Verse 21- "Prove all things, holding fast to that which is Good"....... Only you can make the choice as to what is Good, not in your eyes, but in His.
...You think about it, you pray about it, you will figure it out. Hope this helps and God Bless you young fella.
Ron

That's a good word, Ron. Thanks for your wisdom.

 

[bleme]

abstain from all APPEARANCE of evil".

I used to have a pastor who also worked for the gas company. When he had to travel to company meetings he would always take his own car instead of traveling with his female co-worker because he didn't want to give anyone any reason to think he was fooling around. Personally, I think he took it too far as he came off as more self-righteous than "saved by grace", but that was his decision to make. No matter what any of us say, only you can know what is right for you.

 

[stamandster]

I used to have a pastor who also worked for the gas company. When he had to travel to company meetings he would always take his own car instead of traveling with his female co-worker because he didn't want to give anyone any reason to think he was fooling around. Personally, I think he took it too far as he came off as more self-righteous than "saved by grace", but that was his decision to make. No matter what any of us say, only you can know what is right for you.

Maybe he was really "self-righteous", or maybe he knew the 'thorn in his flesh'. Maybe she was pretty and he was attracted to her (you can't help who you think is pretty, you can help what you do with that information!). And he decided that being in a car (close quarters, intimate, many times a month possibly) with a woman that was not his wife could lead to other things. It's not like that hasn't been known to happen. Some may find it "self-righteous" others may find it "self-preserving".

Just curiously (and slightly humorously) though, if you knew that eventually you'd be a pastor, wouldn't you ask these questions way before you got the "gig"? Not an "oh crap, now what do I do"? I mean is seminary training only like a month or two (not being rude, I just don't know)? Didn't you know for a while that this would be coming or did you just never think about it?

 

[Bierliebhaber]

Here is what I did last fall. I was being interviewed by a church for my first pastor position after finishing seminary. When speaking on hobbies I told them that I enjoyed brewing and asked if that would be a problem if I kept it discrete. I also said that I viewed one of the roles of pastors is to reform things that God gave us that are good that we have turned into sin. God gave us alcohol as a good thing, like sex. When we use it outside of His intended purposes, getting drunk or sex outside of marriage, then we make it a sin, not the thing itself. Many churches have implied for a long time that there are two kinds of people in regards to alcohol, drunkards and those who do not drink. What about a third option, those who enjoy a good gift without being drunk?

After saying this to the interview committee, they agreed and thought that it was a good idea. I could show by my life a proper use and enjoyment of alcohol.

I would not try to hide it. We don't need to air everything in our lives when we are a pastor, but we do need to address potential hot button issues that we can predict. Also, if you set the right attitude you are more likely to get a "yes" as opposed to your church leaders reacting to someone who found out and got angry. When people at my church find out I tell them that I was given permission to do it and that takes care of it. It has spurred many good conversations. Also, I really needed permission because I am brewing at the church owned parsonage on the same block.

+1

I am a PhD candidate in Hebrew Bible and teach graduate level courses in languages and Bible, as adjunct prof. I also teach at my Southern Baptist church, but I informed the pastor overseeing me that I brewed very early in our relationship. I don't advertise it for the reasons already mentioned in regard to Southern Baptists. The two wisest suggestions I've heard so far are to be honest from the start (with the right heart/attitude of course) and/or to just set the hobby aside for good or until you have a better understanding of the congregation.

The point many are missing is that the issue for the OP was not the morality of drinking/brewing, but the effect it may have on his new congregation. This is not an issue about one individual's ability to drink beer. This is an issue of a leader, who has been selected to shepherd a the souls of people. Sure it would be great if you could reform the misguided beliefs about alcohol consumption, but that should not be your primary objective. Your concern for the growth and health of the congregation should be such that losing your hobby would be a slight concern. I have tried to keep a very loose grip on my homebrewing hobby, as I know being a seminary prof and church leader may require that I leave the brewing for a time. But for now, drinking and brewing have afforded many opportunities for the gospel.

I would suggest you broach the subject with the current pastor, when you meet him. Make you foremost concern what is best for the people under your care, not how you can maintain your privileges. I do hope you're able to carry on, though. You may consider beginning a theology discussion group at a local pub, as an outreach/enrichment. When I've done this in the past, it provides a much more relaxed environment to discuss potentially tense subjects, as well as welcome people who would be far less comfortable talking theology in a church. This way you're able to join two loves and expose the congregation to a positive view of beer consumption.

Blessings brother

 

[Taliesin]

There are a lot of posts on this thread, and I don't have time to read them all. Here are a couple thoughts on the original post.

If it is a distinctive of your denomination that drinking is a sin, then I would reconsider the denomination I was a part of. I have run into a significant number of Christians from various denominations/non-denominations that believe that drinking is a sin. Such congregations would apparently have disfellowshipped Christ on these grounds, and I couldn't be a part of any congregation/denomination that disfellowships her Head.

It's not so much the judging that is a problem. We are told not to cast our pearls before swine, which means someone has to figure out who the pigs are. (swiped from a sermon by D.A. Carson) Calling sin what it is isn't the problem. Inventing sins that do not exist in Scripture is the problem.

That being said, while I wouldn't put up a banner advertising my homebrewing adventures, I wouldn't hide the fact at all. If someone asked me what I was interested in aside from sermon preparation and obvious works of the church, I'd be up front. Let it be a chance to teach. The weaker brother argument is a good one, and one ought to be sensitive to the stumbling blocks of others. However, knowing that beer is brewed is not anyone's problem, really. If a congregant had a problem with alcohol, I certainly wouldn't invite them to a brew day. Since what you are doing is obviously not a sin, there is no reason to brew in the dark with tar paper over the windows and all the lights off. That's just dangerous.

All of this is my opinion of course. Your mileage may vary. I am not responsible for any cranial explosions resulting from the techniques or recommendations presented in this post. Taking my advice may cause plagues of locusts and slight swelling. Check with your physician before following any of the advice of this guy. etc.

 

[RedGuitar]

Just curiously (and slightly humorously) though, if you knew that eventually you'd be a pastor, wouldn't you ask these questions way before you got the "gig"? Not an "oh crap, now what do I do"? I mean is seminary training only like a month or two (not being rude, I just don't know)? Didn't you know for a while that this would be coming or did you just never think about it?

I started brewing before I really pursued this whole ordination thing. Since beginning ordination, I haven't really considered it an issue, because my theology says it is no sin and it is not a big deal at my church at all. I'm actually just starting seminary and this will be a student appointment that I will (hopefully) be in for the next four years. This past Monday evening I was brewing my first batch since finding out about my pending appointment, and that is where this thread started.

 

[RedGuitar]

The point many are missing is that the issue for the OP was not the morality of drinking/brewing, but the effect it may have on his new congregation. This is not an issue about one individual's ability to drink beer. This is an issue of a leader, who has been selected to shepherd a the souls of people. Sure it would be great if you could reform the misguided beliefs about alcohol consumption, but that should not be your primary objective. Your concern for the growth and health of the congregation should be such that losing your hobby would be a slight concern. I have tried to keep a very loose grip on my homebrewing hobby, as I know being a seminary prof and church leader may require that I leave the brewing for a time. But for now, drinking and brewing have afforded many opportunities for the gospel.

I think this is the best summation of my ponderings on the subject.

I am meeting my new church this upcoming Sunday, and will be going with the District Superintendant (essentially the man who will be my boss). I e-mailed the DS already and went ahead and let him know my hobby and that I didn't want to do anything that might harm my flock. He promised we would discuss it this Sunday. So, we'll see where I go from there.

Anyway, in the meantime I think I'm going to go listen to the airlock on my honey wheat bubble.

 

[stamandster]

... I didn't want to do anything that might harm my flock. ...
Anyway, in the meantime I think I'm going to go listen to the airlock on my honey wheat bubble.

Off Topic slightly, but, I think you meant "the" flock, of which we're all a part of An overseers responsibility is as 1 Pet 5:2,3 states to "Shepherd the flock of God in your care, not under compulsion, but willingly; neither for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; neither as lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock".

I'm also sniffing the airlock of my ESB I just brewed

 

[cmendo2005]

I am a catholic in a generally Polish community, I think more important than the religion is the culture. Polish like to drink, they like to play cards, religious or not they would not have a problem with brewing (Which my grandma does not) unless your religion specifically says or forbids it I think the important thing is to understand the background make up of your congregation if that makes sense?

 

[stamandster]

... I think more important than the religion is the culture ...

That's certainly an interesting view of things. I think to bring it a step further is that what the bible states is more important than either what the tradition of man states or what our cultures (which move to and fro like the oceans) come up with. Especially so if you're trying to live by Bible standards (God's standards) which never change. It should be a way of life, not just something you do just on "Sunday" or special occasions or to make friends.

In fact Mark 7:5-9 (NIV) Jesus says something interesting regarding traditions, "So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?” He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!"

Wow that was way OT ... last one I promise

 

[CGish]

My concern is what would all of your grandmas say about it.

I came from a very conservative (think Amish/Mennonite type) culture. I did not know either of my grandmas well, but my impression is they would have said nothing ... then drank whatever you brewed when no one was looking.

As an active pastoral assistant and ministry student, I would say go in quietly and be willing to pack your brewing equipment away for a few years, if necessary. If you have to stop brewing while you are posted there, and if a parish house is provided and the congregation considers it 'theirs' (meaning they feel free to poke in the cupboards and attic), then you may need to store your equipment elsewhere for a while ... Hopefully you will not have a problem and can establish biblical teaching in this area. If not, then may this assignment be short and the next one be better!

... if you knew that eventually you'd be a pastor, wouldn't you ask these questions way before you got the "gig"? Not an "oh crap, now what do I do"? I mean is seminary training only like a month or two (not being rude, I just don't know)? Didn't you know for a while that this would be coming or did you just never think about it?

I had to smile at this - Don't know about the OP, but I got into brewing several years before I started down the 'ministry' road. This was not how I thought my life would turn out. I had to get knocked around pretty good by life before I was willing to consider this path. I wish seminary was only a month or two - to get into a school with a good reputation, you need a bachelors degree, which I did not have. This means 3 - 4 years of college, then 1 - 4 years for a masters degree from a seminary (if you are like me and have no 'higher' education).

 

[stamandster]

... I wish seminary was only a month or two - to get into a school with a good reputation, you need a bachelors degree, which I did not have. This means 3 - 4 years of college, then 1 - 4 years for a masters degree from a seminary (if you are like me and have no 'higher' education).

That's a lot of time certification to teach about the bible! In a similar veign we see what the Sadducee's (and others) thought of Peter and John in Acts 4:13 "Now when they beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary, they got to wondering. And they began to recognize about them that they used to be with Jesus". As we all know Peter and John were Apostles and obviously well equipped to teach the word of God

 

[Bierliebhaber]

That's a lot of time certification to teach about the bible! In a similar veign we see what the Sadducee's (and others) thought of Peter and John in Acts 4:13 "Now when they beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary, they got to wondering. And they began to recognize about them that they used to be with Jesus". As we all know Peter and John were Apostles and obviously well equipped to teach the word of God

Yep, they had three years of hard core seminary (day and night) with the greatest biblical scholar who ever lived. Not to mention understanding/familiarity with the biblical languages and good synagogue instruction in their youth.

 

[CGish]

That's a lot of time certification to teach about the bible! ... As we all know Peter and John were Apostles and obviously well equipped to teach the word of God

Yeah, tell me about it. Graduating from seminary is not about being able to teach, or any other gift. It is about having a piece of paper to satisfy church by-laws and elder boards. The real training is a personal faith, and no school can give you that. Had a retired pastor (he held two masters and a doctorate from three different schools) tell me, "when you graduate, you will have to throw out everything you have been taught and start over studying the Word. After you are done with school, your real education will start." Kind of sobering considering how much an education cost, but part of the world we live in.

Yep, they had three years of hard core seminary (day and night) with the greatest biblical scholar who ever lived. Not to mention understanding/familiarity with the biblical languages and good synagogue instruction in their youth.

Interesting way to look at it.

 

[bottlebomber]

Yep, they had three years of hard core seminary (day and night) with the greatest biblical scholar who ever lived. Not to mention understanding/familiarity with the biblical languages and good synagogue instruction in their youth.

Any Christian youth should have a full fledged bible education by the time he leaves home, if his father and mother have done their jobs. And while they (Peter and John) did have a definite advantage of having a fleshly Christ to learn from, we have Christ in spirit as well as his Almighty Father to guide us. If you remember, it wasn't until Jesus died that he revealed many of his teachings to his people. I think Christians have every advantage in these times, if not more so than the apostles.
As far as the languages, unless you are somehow involved in Biblical translation work I don't see how Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic are of any specific benefit. By contrast, knowing Spanish would be of much greater value in the land we live in.

Graduating from seminary is not about being able to teach, or any other gift. It is about having a piece of paper to satisfy church by-laws and elder boards.

It sounds more like a business venture than a spiritual venture.

 

[TarVolon]

Any Christian youth should have a full fledged bible education by the time he leaves home, if his father and mother have done their jobs. And while they (Peter and John) did have a definite advantage of having a fleshly Christ to learn from, we have Christ in spirit as well as his Almighty Father to guide us. If you remember, it wasn't until Jesus died that he revealed many of his teachings to his people. I think Christians have every advantage in these times, if not more so than the apostles.
As far as the languages, unless you are somehow involved in Biblical translation work I don't see how Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic are of any specific benefit. By contrast, knowing Spanish would be of much greater value in the land we live in.

It's amazing once you start paying attention to it how many times you can read a verse and really wish you knew the original language so that you could understand what subtleties were trying to be portrayed that may be hidden by the translation.

And there's also something to be said for actively studying 2,000 years worth of biblical commentary. Lots of smart people have said a lot of good things that we can benefit from. And that most Christian youths probably don't know that well by the time they leave home.

 

[Dan]

I learned to brew at a Church men's ministry meeting.

There might be a church around here like yours, wish I knew because I'd start going.

Belief in God, and the sacrifices made by his son, and fellowship is what I believe hold a church together.

 

[stamandster]

It's amazing once you start paying attention to it how many times you can read a verse and really wish you knew the original language so that you could understand what subtleties were trying to be portrayed that may be hidden by the translation.

And there's also something to be said for actively studying 2,000 years worth of biblical commentary. Lots of smart people have said a lot of good things that we can benefit from. And that most Christian youths probably don't know that well by the time they leave home.

The thing about Hebrew is there are so many words that have very complex meanings that they don't have a direct translation into English (or other languages for that matter). It would be nice at times to know why a certain word was used in place of another (for instance in Greek the word for where Jesus was hung meant a wooden timber not a cross; though some translations input their own theology into the interpretation). Understanding the Hebrew language is obviously not required for understanding the word of god completely. Only God's holy spirit (or active force, ru′ach or pneu′ma) provides this insight to those that are sincere of heart. Anyone can read the scriptures in any language they want till their blue in the face but the key is God's holy spirit to guide our mental faculties.

Solomon makes mention of something in regard to the bible cannon at Ecc 12:11,12, "The words of the wise ones are like oxgoads, and just like nails driven in are those indulging in collections of sentences; they have been given from one shepherd. As regards anything besides these, my son, take a warning: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh". The message is simple, scripture should be our foremost concern for learning and teaching the Bible.

There's a nice scripture that speaks of how a family should be in regards to teaching the bible in their family, as the Israelites were instructed, "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force. And these words that I am commanding you today must prove to be on your heart; and you must inculcate them in your son and speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up. And you must tie them as a sign upon your hand, and they must serve as a frontlet band between your eyes; and you must write them upon the doorposts of your house and on your gates."

If a family head is doing his job appropriately (and we all know how hard that is, and we know that sometimes kids just won't want to listen) and child "should" have a good basic knowledge of the scriptures. He should know his bible enough to cite basic bible doctrine, even by the age of 10. He should have a firmer grasp of what is taught in his adolescence. They can't be babes forever

 

[stamandster]

... It is about having a piece of paper to satisfy church by-laws and elder boards. The real training is a personal faith, and no school can give you that. Had a retired pastor (he held two masters and a doctorate from three different schools) tell me, "when you graduate, you will have to throw out everything you have been taught and start over studying the Word. After you are done with school, your real education will start."

Seems like money well spent . I see a biblical parallel. I've been studying the bible all my life (like Timothy) and have been involved in a worldwide Bible Training "course" since about 8 yrs old. All free though

Yep, they had three years of hard core seminary (day and night) with the greatest biblical scholar who ever lived. Not to mention understanding/familiarity with the biblical languages and good synagogue instruction in their youth.

That's true Jesus was with them and was the best teacher. But I'm fairly positive that they became "fishers of men" almost right away.

 

[bottlebomber]

It's amazing once you start paying attention to it how many times you can read a verse and really wish you knew the original language so that you could understand what subtleties were trying to be portrayed that may be hidden by the translation.

I couldn't agree with you more. Let's take for example a well known scripture - John 1:1. In Greek: (The forum software totally is not digging my Greek, please bear with me)
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος

Literally meaning:
In beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward the God(Θεό&nu, and god(Θεὸ&sigmafwas the Word.

Now without the Greek it would be easy to think that the two usages of the word "god" were the same. But one is god in the superlative form(God), while the other is a singular predicate noun, essentially meaning godlike, or divine. So yes, without the Greek translation it would be easy to make the mistake that the Word WAS the God whom he was with.

That makes it a lot easier to wrap your mind around scriptures like 2 Corinthians 4:4 which reads
In whom the god(Θεὸ&sigmaf of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God(Θεό&nu, should shine unto them.

So with this knowledge of the original language you can see that Satan is godlike in the same way that Christ is godlike - a powerful ruler.

To back that usage up, here it is used again in Phillipians 3:19
Whose end is destruction, whose god(Θεὸ&sigmaf is their BELLY, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

So without a basic understanding of the Greek from which the Bible was translated, you wouldn't have a direct way of proving that God Almighty, Satan, Christ, and our stomachs aren't all the same thing. I get that. I just think that in spreading the word of God it is more important to be able to relate to people to whom we are preaching than to have a bunch of wallpaper.

Now how's that for

 

[TyTanium]

Well said, bottlebomber.

The other thing the language gives you is historical context, which is critical for proper interpretation. It's too easy (and dangerous, IMO) to extrapolate a single verse and interpret it within my own context. Yes, scripture speaks to each of us as we are, but understanding the historical context opens up an entirely new realm of meaning, and gives insight into the author's intent.

Biblical literature is packed full of allusion with multiple levels & depths of meaning. By doing this, Biblical authors could reach a wide array of audiences (both Jew & Gentile, educated & uneducated, new to faith and advanced.) Many of the allusions (or puns, even) don't become apparent unless you know the language & culture - think about someone joining HBT for the first time...they miss a TON of the nuance, personality, etc...

Even though the disciples weren't biblical scholars, per se, they surely understood the language & culture they lived in. And it shows in their writing.

PS - great discussion. I'm very encouraged by you all.
And +1 for spiritual education in the home. That's too important to outsource.

 

[hwilshusen]

I suppose all it took was seeing that beer doesn't consume your every thought and desire...

So says the man with 14000 posts.

 

[badhabit]

I started brewing with my German and Lutheran dad better than 45 years ago. I learned a lot from him. I always knew when the preacher was comming over because he would move an additional 5 or 6 bottles of beer into the fridge to cool down. O by the way my granfather was a preacher and so is my daughter.

 

[Homercidal]

So says the man with 14000 posts.

Don't worry, I save a few thoughts and desires for other things...

 

[stamandster]

Here is an interesting quote from Martin Luther. I had never seen it before, but this discussion has me doing some research...

“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.”

So what he's saying is to sin MORE on your own volition so you don't have a troubled conscience so the devil doesn't make you sin more? whaaa?

Based on what 1 Cor 10:13 says, "No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it", I doubt God wants you to let yourself be tempted to spite the Satan; by in fact doing so you knowingly tempt our faithful Father and spite him! (compare James 1:13)

In fact the bible says in Prov 27:11 "Be wise, my child, and bring joy to my heart; then I can answer anyone who treats me with contempt". Would wisdom dictate us to allow ourselves a place for the devil (eph 4:27 "and do not give the devil a foothold")? And how would that allow us to serve him with a whole soul, mind and strength?

 

[tennesseean_87]

Now without the Greek it would be easy to think that the two usages of the word "god" were the same. But one is god in the superlative form(God), while the other is a singular predicate noun, essentially meaning godlike, or divine. So yes, without the Greek translation it would be easy to make the mistake that the Word WAS the God whom he was with.

While the second usage of θεοσ is qualitative, and the Greek is helpful, cultural context is just as important. While the two words come under different grammatical categories, they have the same referent, because John was Jewish, and believed in only one divine being. Cf. the שםע .

 

[TarVolon]

While the second usage of θεοσ is qualitative, and the Greek is helpful, cultural context is just as important. While the two words come under different grammatical categories, they have the same referent, because John was Jewish, and believed in only one divine being. Cf. the שםע .

You at Westy? I've got a buddy there.

Also, woo for Tennesseans!

 

[ACbrewer]

OP, I'm sure someone has suggested it - convert to something that doesn't care about drinking esp drinking beer.

Eastern Orthidox, Catholic - I started one of the priests at my church on brewing, he'd been doing it a while, but I think I pushed him on. Jewish? Agnostic? ok, those last 2, well all 4 might be a stretch... LOL

 

[1MadScientist]

This is a very interesting thread of itself. I wonder what we would say under a new thread in general about reconciling beer making / alcohol consumption to ones religious beliefs / church, specifically brewers who are still in the closet about their hobby and don't want to disappoint others. I know I have a one-of-a-kind doozy story.

To the OP;
You should do well with that in NC as opposed to the deep south. I will say that my mom was disappointed in me when I told her that I made beer and made 5 gallons at a time.

Years later when I starting getting into BIAB I asked my mother to sew some bags for me and she did because we do things for each other because we are family is how she said it. Don't tell her she is on my Flickr photo stream of beer making with over 6,000 hits!