Mini mash vs. All grain - Mini Mash wins

[Grinder12000]

I had been invited to join in a Homebrew festival and since I did not know of the event I felt I should check it out first.

So me and a friend of mine went to said festival this weekend and we took our critical taste buds and notebooks to unofficially judge beer. The goal was to just increase our knowledge and awareness of beer.

Once we were done and pretty well toasted (no 2 oz. servings HERE)!! we were talking about the brews the good and the bad and I had been asking every so often the techniques, seemed 50/50 between mini mash and AG.

SO I got up out of my chair (no easy task at that point) and with notebook asked each of the brewers their technique.

WELL - the brews that got the highest ratings were the partial mashers and NOT the All grain people.

Thinking about this we all know that All Grain IS better then Partial mash IF the brewer is skilled.

I feel many All Grain brewers (this is ONLY my personal experience) make worse beer then Mini mashers because All Grain is harder. They do not have the experience. They do 3 or 4 mini mashes and say I want to make GOOD beer and move to AG before they are ready.

it's then the technique - it's the brewer.

I've gotten into the bad habit of when someone says they are an all grain brewer I have been lowering my expectations on what I'm about to drink.

 

[Synovia]

because All Grain is harder. T

Honestly, I think all grain is easier than Partial mash. PM, you have to do everything you do in AG, and then you still need to worry about introducing the extract and such.

 

[SavageSteve]

Honestly, I think all grain is easier than Partial mash. PM, you have to do everything you do in AG, and then you still need to worry about introducing the extract and such.

Adding extract to a PM batch is not really much to worry about-- measure, dump, stir.

I think doing a PM is easier than AG, in a way, because you don't need to be excessively concerned about efficiency. You can adjust the wort gravity with extract, as needed, if you are over or under your expected efficiency.

-Steve

 

[SavageSteve]

Oh, and I agree with Grinder12000... all-grain does not equate to beer that is better than extract. I would even go so far as to say that with fresh ingredients and good technique, the difference between AG and extract is small, if any.

-Steve

 

[Grinder12000]

first I should say I am a Partial mash full Boil guy.

When I said "harder" perhaps it is harder to stay focused? I can make a batch in just under 3.5 hours. All grain seems to take longer and I wonder if focus sometimes becomes a factor in the length of time it takes?

 

[Yooper]

first I should say I am a Partial mash full Boil guy.

When I said "harder" perhaps it is harder to stay focused? I can make a batch in just under 3.5 hours. All grain seems to take longer and I wonder if focus sometimes becomes a factor in the length of time it takes?

I don't know. An AG batch takes me 4 hours, and the beer is the best beer I've ever made. Is it because I sucked as a brewer when I did PM? I doubt it- but fresh ingredients are hard to come by unless I ordered online right before a brew day. Now I buy in bulk, and crush my grain while my strike water is heating. That's about as fresh as you can get.

I've had some terrible AG beers, and some excellent extract brews. Overall, though, the good AG beers I've had have been better than the good extract brews.

Nothing wrong with PM if that's what the brewer likes, and has time to do. I just don't see any real advantage to a PM over an AG brew if you already have the equipment.

 

[Synovia]

Adding extract to a PM batch is not really much to worry about-- measure, dump, stir.

And why can't you do that with AG? If I miss my OG I usually don't worry about it, but I'm sure I could just dump in a little DME if I wanted.


You might technically call it a PM at that point, but I think its all semantics at that point.

 

[SavageSteve]

And why can't you do that with AG? If I miss my OG I usually don't worry about it, but I'm sure I could just dump in a little DME if I wanted.

You might technically call it a PM at that point, but I think its all semantics at that point.

Yes, you can adjust the gravity of an AG brew with extract, but that's not what I was debating. Your assertion was that AG is easier than PM because:

PM, you have to do everything you do in AG, and then you still need to worry about introducing the extract and such.​

and I simply countered that:

Adding extract to a PM batch is not really much to worry about-- measure, dump, stir.​

and I still stand by that. I just don't think that's enough of a difference to make AG easier than PM. If you add a little extract to an AG brew to meet a target OG, then that narrows the difference even more.

-Steve

 

[Synovia]

Steve, my whole point is that there are essentially more steps in a PM brew than an AG brew. You're essentially doing AG, and then adding on worries about whether you're doing late addition of extract, or early, worries about burning the extract, etc.

IMO, people do PM instead of AG because of space/equipment needs, not because its easier. I don't really think AG is easier, but I don't think its any harder.

 

[SavageSteve]

Yes, there are more steps to PM than AG, and, in some ways, that makes it easier. Worries about late addition of extract and burning the extract are really tied to technique not related to PM. For me, adding extract is easy because, with my technique, I don't have to worry about timing and burning. I guess "easiness" is subjective.

To tie this back to the OP, just because a beer was made using an AG technique does not make it inherently better than PM or all-extract (AE?). I started doing PM to improve the quality of my beer, but honestly, there were other more important factors that made a much larger contribution to improving my beer than replacing some of my extract with fresh wort from a mash.

-Steve

 

[weirdboy]

The big difference that I can see in AG vs. PM is that with PM the bulk of your gravity is coming from extract, which is going to be pretty consistent in terms of quality and flavor. With an inexperienced brewer, they're not going to hit consistent mash temperatures, they're going to forget to vorlauf, they're going to miss their target volumes and gravities, etc. So the body, flavor, head retention, and so on are going to vary more from batch to batch than with a PM, just because of the larger percent contribution of those characteristics that they have direct control over.

 

[Joos]

OP AG is really easy.It can be complicated if you want it to be.So can extract,But a single infusion mash and batch sparge is easy.3-4 hours including clean up.And makes way better beer,IMO anyway.Like yooper said.Maybe I just wasnt as skilled when I did extract/PM,but I doubt that is the case.Just my .02

 

[Grinder12000]

I would like to see a break down in time on these 3.5 hour all grain batches.

This is NOT an all grain bash or anything like that it's just a personal experience in the All Grain batches I have tasted.

NOW REMEMBER - I consider most people that brew on this forum better then the normal brewer. I would think that if you take the average AG batch from an HBT forum member and and an average AG from a NON HBT you would see a large difference.

(I am really curious on the 3.5 hours AG batches though).

 

[flyangler18]

I would like to see a break down in time on these 3.5 hour all grain batches.

3.5 - 4 hours is a standard brewday for me, so I can spell this out fairly quickly from experience.

1) Crush grain while heating sparge and strike water, the volume of which is determined by the total poundage of the grainbill less .10-.12 absorption factor during the mash. 30 minutes
2) Conduct hour-long mash 60 minutes
3) Vorlauf for clarity and to set the grainbed, then drain MLT. 15-20 minutes
4)After total boil volume is collected, begin heating for the boil. 30 minutes (During this time, multi-task! Clean the MLT, sanitize and cap your fermenter, prep hop additions, etc)
5) 60 minute boil
6) Chill, 10 minutes.
7) Transfer to fermenter and pitch yeast.

It's not a race, but just an efficient use of downtime to keep cleanup to a minimum.

 

[Yooper]

Most of my "regular" batches are 3.5-4 hours, with decoction/step mashes being longer.

I generally am a very organized person, so it really goes like clockwork. I start heating the strike water, and then go downstairs to crush the grain. By then, I have the equipment all ready and then mash in. I usually do a 60 minute mash. The sparge water is heating during the mash, so as soon as the mash is done, I vorlauf and run it off. Then, I put the first runnings on to boil while I batch sparge. That takes just a few minutes, and by then the wort is already simmering and on its way to boiling. I do a 60 minute boil, chill, put into the fermenter and finish cleaning up. I do multiple things at a time- while the boil is starting, I measure all the hops. After I add the first hops, I clean the MLT and put things away. I also start sanitizing my equipment doing the boil/chilling, so it's ready. For a time line, it would look like this:

20 minutes: Measure, heat strike water. Set up thermometer and MLT.
1 Hour: Mash in. After all set, gather up the rest of equipment (wort chiller, etc) which is all together in the basement.
15 minutes: Drain first runnings, set on to boil. Vorlauf, then batch sparge.
75 minutes: Bring the wort to a boil and boil for 60 minutes.
20 minutes: Chill wort, while sanitizing and cleaning up.

So, about 3.25 hours of actually doing something. There is still a little leeway in timing. Somedays, I do a shorter or longer mash. Sometimes I FWH or I might fly sparge. It just depends on what I'm doing that day.

I think that PM wouldn't be faster- I mean, a mash is a mash no matter how big it is. It still takes an hour to convert, for example. The only "quicker" part would be if you did a partial boil, so you could get it boiling faster.

I'm not disagreeing with you that PM beer can be very good- I just don't think it's a time savings over AG since you're doing essentially the same thing for the same length of time.

 

[Rottnme]

Grinder12000 - Clean out your PM's man I can't get anything to you.

 

[david_42]

WELL - the brews that got the highest ratings were the partial mashers and NOT the All grain people.
Thinking about this we all know that All Grain IS better then Partial mash IF the brewer is skilled.

I suspect many people start brewing all-grain before they have enough experience to brew consistently and before they have a strong grasp of the characteristics of various grains and styles. I've also observed an unfortunate tendency to brew beyond the capacity of their equipment, undersized mash tuns, kettles, etc.

Good beer is simple, great beer takes skill, talent and experience.

I can do a PM in 2.5 hours. It's all a matter of exact timing.

 

[Grinder12000]

Rottnme - Sorry dude - I cleaned out incoming but not outgoing and then I guess my subscription ran out! OOPS!

Cleaned!

 

[Grinder12000]

I can do a PM in 2.5 hours. It's all a matter of exact timing.

What? How - do you use a micro wave?

You have 2 hours for mashing and boiling and 1/2 for everything else? Does your water heat instantly?

Do you get 5 gallons to cool from 212 to 75 in like 5 minutes?

 

[david_42]

I cheat. While the mash is on, I bring the sparge water to a boil and toss in the bittering hops. When the mash is done, I drain to the kettle and put it on the burner. The bitter water (with pH 5.2) goes in the mash tun. Stir, drain, add the rest, (Stir extract into kettle) stir, drain. Bring it to a boil. Make the flavor and aroma adds. Chilling takes 15-25 minutes depending on the time of year.

Got the ideas from a pro who worked it out as a way to get two mash runs in a day. He doesn't sparge as hot, but has an instantaneous heater between the mash tun and the kettle.

 

[BioBeing]

Palmer in Designing Great Beer (IIRC) mentioned that many medal winning beers contain some proportion of extract in them. So it is definitely possible to make great beer using a mini or partial mash.

That said, I also wonder about the number of partial-mash brewers vs the number of all-grain guys. If there are 10 X more PMers than AGers, then there is a bigger pool of talent to draw from too, making them more likely to be represented better at competitions. [Not saying either is better or worse - just looking at it a different way! I do AG as I enjoy it.]

 

[Grinder12000]

they're going to forget to vorlauf

I don't even know what that is, I'm not sure I have EVER vorlaufed.

BTW - Biobing - LOVE Neil Gaiman.

Back on topic.

I seriously do want to stress this. The people that post on this forum I would have to think are better brewers then your average Joe. If you are into this enough to spend countless hours here you are serious about brewing.

So when I seem to be cutting down AG brewers it is not the HBT brewers beer I'm drinking. It's normally the guys that make a batch every couple months.

 

[Christian]

We can all argue which is easier and tastes better, forever. In my opinion it all comes down to technique of the brewer. You can have good AG and bad AG, good PM bad PM, good AE bad AE. It all depends on the brewer, my personal favorite is PM as to me it is easier and less time consuming and less equipment to sanitize and clean over doing AG. I feel i have tweaked my techniques enough that no one, not even my beer snob friends can tell the difference as 9 times out of ten they think the PM tastes better, but i've had way more experience with extract and PM's from my early years of brewing to perfect em. Personally i think some people jump to AG too fast, they just hear it's supposed to be better but have not yet had enough time to really work on and perfect their other brewing techniques that will help them in doing AG. But like i said it really boils down to the brewer themselves,

 

[Synovia]

I cheat. While the mash is on, I bring the sparge water to a boil and toss in the bittering hops. When the mash is done, I drain to the kettle and put it on the burner. The bitter water (with pH 5.2) goes in the mash tun. Stir, drain, add the rest, (Stir extract into kettle) stir, drain. Bring it to a boil. Make the flavor and aroma adds. Chilling takes 15-25 minutes depending on the time of year.

Got the ideas from a pro who worked it out as a way to get two mash runs in a day. He doesn't sparge as hot, but has an instantaneous heater between the mash tun and the kettle.

You hop your sparge water? Thats crazy, I tell yah. Just plain crazy



How's it work out? I would think you'd get lower utilization simply because the hops are getting strained out by the mash...but then again, you're boiling in 1.000, so higher utilization from that...hrm.

 

[redraider629]

I switched to AG after only 5 or 6 batches of PM. I think mine is very good, as do others. i think it is better than my AGs. So I do not think that jumping to AG to quick is a bad thing. Sure for some people that have brewed one PM months ago, it may not be that good of an idea. Though if you have a few PMs under your belt, and care anough to put your time into AG, plus you have a good idea on what you are doing through this site, and other research. But than again most people that brew do not spend their times on this site or do extensive research before they start.

 

[carbon111]

While the mash is on, I bring the sparge water to a boil and toss in the bittering hops. When the mash is done, I drain to the kettle and put it on the burner. The bitter water (with pH 5.2) goes in the mash tun. Stir, drain, add the rest, (Stir extract into kettle) stir, drain. Bring it to a boil. Make the flavor and aroma adds. Chilling takes 15-25 minutes depending on the time of year.

Interesting! Have you posted on the forum about this before? (link please)

I'm curious to hear more about how this is working out for you.

...sorry for being

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

david42, how do you calculate your IBUs doing it that way? Do you just consider your sparge-hops an 'X' minute addition?

FWIW, it's rare for me to have an AG brew session last less than 4.5 hours. But I often have >60 min. boils, I fly-sparge, and my IC is not very efficient (at least 30 min. chill time).

 

[The Pol]

This is like saying that one guy running in Nikes is running faster than ANOTHER runner who is wearing Asics because he is wearing Nikes... but they are different runners!

Bottom line, crappy brewers with crappy technique can make ANYTHING taste bad.

By the same token, a great brewer with great technique can make anything taste awesome.

Now, how "hard" it is to get to that outcome is a matter of opinion, though we do love to piggeon hole people here.

Also, AG is not as long of a process as some make it. I complete 100 minute boils, fly sparging and STILL finish with a 4:30 brew day... reduce the boil to 60 minutes like most use and you are UNDER 4 hours.

Sure I could turn it into a 6 hour thing, but then again Id be wasting a lot of time too... again, it comes down to the individual and what he/she is doing.

 

[Bobby_M]

I take all day to brew because it's my day to chill out and enjoy the process. If I were trying to sprint, I'd just go buy the beer.

 

[TheH2]

I get more enjoyment out of all grain. I'm sure at this point I could have made one of my beers I made all grain better as a partial mash but I'm learning a lot while doing all grain and having more fun doing it.

Also, some styles are likely a bit more difficult to brew to style with partial mash, pale ale because of color, and I'd imagine belgian beers as well. That nice low mash temperature really helps the final product of a belgian beer and I'm not aware of any high attenuation extracts, although I wouldn't be surprised if they existed.