Medicinal taste with WLP530

[deadwolfbones]

Hi all! I brewed 3 gal of a patersbier a couple weekends ago (all pils, styrian celeja) and pitched a vial of WLP530. Since it was a small batch with a low OG (1.037) I didn't make a starter. The use by date on the yeast was Oct '18.

It took about 2 full days to get airlock activity in my SS BrewBucket (good seal, so I usually get it much sooner than that). After 6 days or so, I tasted it and did a gravity reading. At that point, it was about 75% finished. I got plenty of the Belgian flavors you want, but also a vaguely medicinal note. I wouldn't call it band-aid or hot alcohol... just... not quite right.

Some other notes:
- Used RO water from the machine outside the grocery store.
- Never went above 72F, and mostly 68-71F.
- Added ~5oz sugar dissolved in a cup of water on day 7. Water was filtered tap.
- Reached FG a couple days ago (~1.006) and the medicinal taste is still there but seems to be maybe diminishing a little bit?

I have a couple questions:
1. Do I have any hope of this taste ever completely going away with aging?
2. If I reuse the yeast, will the off-flavor transfer to a new beer?
3. What is the most likely cause?

 

[specharka]

I’m willing to bet it’s not the yeast. The Westmalle strain will throw off a little pear (ethyl acetate) depending on the yeast health, but it usually diminishes for me by the time the beer is finished fermenting. It’s possible you didn’t pitch enough yeast for it to clean up its own mess, but I’d wager there’s something else at play here.

Chlorinated tap water will usually dissipate given time or temperature, but if that chlorine binds to polyphenols in the wort you can get bio transformation reactions and medicinal flavors. Did you boil the sugar infusion? Give it some more time, maybe feed it a little more sugar (dissolved in boiling water), and see what happens.

 

[TooManyTacos]

There might be some chlorine/chloramine that is making your yeast produce phenols, or you could have some left over PBW (or any other cleaner) that is making the yeast produce the off flavors.

 

[Kwitty]

If you're using RO water and not buildng it back up. I used to use bottled water in 5 gallon jugs. Turns out they cut the water 50/50 spring and RO water. It diluted the minerals so much it stressed the yeast and created a medicinal taste. The yeast need the minerals. I switched to filtered tap with potassium metabisulphite added for chlorine/chloromine and the problem was gone. It was on the suggestion of a local pro brewer. He was spot on. Good luck!

 

[deadwolfbones]

I’m willing to bet it’s not the yeast. The Westmalle strain will throw off a little pear (ethyl acetate) depending on the yeast health, but it usually diminishes for me by the time the beer is finished fermenting. It’s possible you didn’t pitch enough yeast for it to clean up its own mess, but I’d wager there’s something else at play here.

Chlorinated tap water will usually dissipate given time or temperature, but if that chlorine binds to polyphenols in the wort you can get bio transformation reactions and medicinal flavors. Did you boil the sugar infusion? Give it some more time, maybe feed it a little more sugar (dissolved in boiling water), and see what happens.

Unless the RO water machine was acting up or poorly serviced, there shouldn't be any chlorine in there. I've used the same machine for 10 batches in a row before that without off-flavor issues.

For the sugar, I boiled the water in the microwave (in a pyrex measuring cup), then poured the sugar in and stirred until dissolved, covered with foil, and let cool to ferm temp before adding. But the sugar was also added after the off-taste developed/was first noted.

There might be some chlorine/chloramine that is making your yeast produce phenols, or you could have some left over PBW (or any other cleaner) that is making the yeast produce the off flavors.

As I mentioned above, I don't know where chlorine could have entered the equation. The water source is reliable and the only cleaner I use is soap/water. I sanitize with Star San. No contamination issues in any previous batch, but I suppose some wild yeast could have gotten into this one?

If you're using RO water and not buildng it back up. I used to use bottled water in 5 gallon jugs. Turns out they cut the water 50/50 spring and RO water. It diluted the minerals so much it stressed the yeast and created a medicinal taste. The yeast need the minerals. I switched to filtered tap with potassium metabisulphite added for chlorine/chloromine and the problem was gone. It was on the suggestion of a local pro brewer. He was spot on. Good luck!

Ah, good suggestion but I forgot to mention that I added salts (1.5g of both gypsum and CaCl) to the mash, which is in line with what I've done for many previous batches.

 

[Kwitty]

That's a great start but the yeast need more than gypsum and calcium chloride. Nitrogen comes to mind right now but I know there's more to it. I know a lot of nutrients come from the grain too but it still wasn't enough for my 50/50 water. I'm not a water expert by any stretch, just suggesting maybe you explore it further. Also I didn't see what temp you fermented at or if you temp control. I found Belgian yeast sometimes has a lot going on and takes an extended fermentation to clean up all the little off flavors. I often let it sit at 68f for a couple weeks after primary ferment to clean itself up. Not that I transfer, I just let it sit in the primary fermenter after activity settled down. Sometimes a little extra time can clean up a lot!

 

[Kwitty]

Sorry! Just saw your temp for ferment. I'm blind!

 

[specharka]

That's a great start but the yeast need more than gypsum and calcium chloride. Nitrogen comes to mind right now but I know there's more to it. I know a lot of nutrients come from the grain too but it still wasn't enough for my 50/50 water. I'm not a water expert by any stretch, just suggesting maybe you explore it further. Also I didn't see what temp you fermented at or if you temp control. I found Belgian yeast sometimes has a lot going on and takes an extended fermentation to clean up all the little off flavors. I often let it sit at 68f for a couple weeks after primary ferment to clean itself up. Not that I transfer, I just let it sit in the primary fermenter after activity settled down. Sometimes a little extra time can clean up a lot!

There’s enough FAN and magnesium in malt to sustain yeast health. Insufficient calcium from the brewing water can contribute to poor yeast health, but the salt additions would have more than made up for that issue.

OP, the only other thing I can think of is using an inappropriate solvent for cleaning your FV. What kind of soap did you use?

 

[deadwolfbones]

There’s enough FAN and magnesium in malt to sustain yeast health. Insufficient calcium from the brewing water can contribute to poor yeast health, but the salt additions would have more than made up for that issue.

OP, the only other thing I can think of is using an inappropriate solvent for cleaning your FV. What kind of soap did you use?

I think it was just typical dish soap (Dawn?), but that's nothing unusual in my process. I do it after every use. I suppose I could have rinsed insufficiently.

 

[specharka]

I think it was just typical dish soap (Dawn?), but that's nothing unusual in my process. I do it after every use. I suppose I could have rinsed insufficiently.

Even if it didn’t contribute to the medicinal flavor you’re experiencing, I would strongly recommend avoiding any and all dish soap for cleaning anything that touches wort / beer. The smallest amount of residual soap is enough to substantially degrade head-retaining proteins.

I soak my carboys and brewing gear in PBW, rinse with hot water, and sanitize my cold side equipment with StarSan. Unless I’m repurposing a carboy used for Brettanomyces fermentation, that’s it.

 

[chickypad]

Are we sure these aren't phenols from the yeast? I get some with 530 typically. Water treatment sounds fine if the pH was in range.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Are we sure these aren't phenols from the yeast? I get some with 530 typically. Water treatment sounds fine if the pH was in range.

I dunno, man. I've tasted a lot of Belgian/Abbey beers in my life and I've never tasted this particular flavor in them. I suppose it's possible.

 

[chickypad]

Just a thought with the medicinal description. I am particularly sensitive to phenols, and while I think 530 may produce less than other Belgian yeasts I do often pick up some. I just brewed a patersbier myself with 3787 and it's definitely got a slight phenolic taste.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Tasted it again tonight and I feel like the off-taste is gradually fading. Maybe the yeast just had to clean up a bit. I'm going to let it sit in primary another week before bottling and hope for the best.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

If memory serves me well I had these kinds of flavors when I brewed a tripel with that yeast. Early on it kinda tasted like basil. I gave it about 6 months in the bottle and its hands down one of the best beers I've ever made.

 

[deadwolfbones]

So, an update: I bottled this a couple weeks ago and just sampled it.

The aroma is still slightly chemical/medicinal, and the taste has elements of apple/apple cider, which I guess would point to acetaldehyde? Makes sense given the slow start/probably unhealthy yeast pitch. The beer is VERY dry, but also has a weirdly slick mouthfeel. Leaves a sort of astringent dryness on the tongue. I think it's also giving me a headache almost immediately (I drank about 1/4 of a 12oz bottle).

Gonna keep a 6er around to see how age affects it, but I guess I'll chalk this up to unhealthy yeast causing acetaldehyde and possibly wild yeast contamination.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Hmmmm, slick mouthfeel, green apple, headaches, sounds like the yeast didn't get to clean up after themselves.