Mashout and Sparging temp questions

[Yourrealdad]

So after looking at other posts and blogs I think I might not be mashing correctly. My steps are as follows:

1. Preheat my round Igloo cooler
2. Mash in with water temp usually in the 160 range to give me my mash temps (determined by Beersmith). Stir well and make sure the temp in on point.
3. Mash for 60-90min depending on grain type
4. Start vorlaufing. Usually takes about 12-16 qts to get clear wort, then drain into brew kettle with a wide open valve. I get bubbles/foam in the kettle doing this.
5. Pour in sparge water which always seems to be 168 degrees according to Beersmith. Stir and wait for 15mins.
6. Vorlauf as I did for the mash. Drain with a wide open valve

Most of the time pre-boil gravity and volume are spot on and efficiency is around 75%

Here are my questions:

1. Is the bubbling wort into the kettle an issue? Hot side aeration? I have hear that is not really an issue with homebrewers, I don't have a stale flvor to my beer, but it would be easy to just buy a longer piece of tubing.

2. Should I be mashing out? Once again I have read some people say they do it and others that they don't. Will it help with mash ph or not extracting tannins?
Is the easiest way to just add boiling water and do I need to worry about the new water to grist ratio?

3. Should my sparge water be a high temp? It seems like I want my grain to be at 168 degrees and therefor my sparge water hotter?

Here is a screen shot of one of my Beersmith recipes.

Thanks again,
Kevin

 

[Sideways]

You are correct that you want to bring the grain temp to 168 with your "batch sparge". I dont know your grain bill but usually 180 to 185 is necessary. Dont worry about mashing out when batch sparging. Hot side aeration? Who knows.. just by a longer hose.

 

[aryoung1980]

Your process seems fine. I believe hot side aeration is an issue post-boil. The act of boiling will remove the oxygen in your wort.

I never mash out when I batch sparge. I take my first runnings and add my sparge water which is around 170F.

If you're hitting 75% efficiency regularly and do not have off flavors, I see no reason to alter your process. This is of course just my opinion.


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[moreb33rplz]

Vorlaufing with 12-16 qts? I must not understand this. When I start to drain my mash I collect 1-2 qts of the first runnings that are cloudy, and then dump them back in. I repeat this with each of my sparges.

Have I been doing that wrong? Isn't 12-16 quarts more than what you would use in the mash for a typical 5 gal batch?

 

[aryoung1980]

Vorlaufing with 12-16 qts?

Have I been doing that wrong?

I vorlauf 2-3 liters. You can vorlauf your a** off if you wanted to but once the grain bed is set, it's set. I would think 12-16qts is excessive but I don't know his system or how fine of a crush he is using.


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[Yourrealdad]

Sorry don't know what I was thinking 6-8 qts. I know that still seems like a lot to some of you, but that is what it takes.

I am having some off flavors and in my darker (porters, stouts) a little tannic off flavors, just seeing if it might have to do with not mashing out or too low of sparge temps.

 

[Sideways]

Those dont sound like the culprit. You may want to look into your water chemistry.

 

[aryoung1980]

I'm thinking it's your mash pH if it's only with your dark grains


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[cease]

Agreed, if your other brews are coming out ok and it's just your dark beers with the off flavors it may be your mash PH which could be related to your brewing water chemistry.

Get some cheap PH strips to test. Your process looks good though.




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[Yourrealdad]

Thanks. I think there is an off flavor in all of my beers but it is fainter in say an IPA and no one else I give them too seems to think that there is an issue. Starting to work on figuring out my ph and water chemistry stuff.

And I guess I have gotten two answers for sparge water temp. One person has said around 180 degress and the other has said around 170. Which do I go with?

 

[cease]

I use a 10G beverage cooler MLT. My normal strike water is at around 168 depending on what I am going for. I normally transfer the water from my kettle to the MLT at around 170, put the lid on and let it settle for a few minutes then dough in. I shoot for around 152 but may go to 148-150 for a nice dry IPA.

180 could be ok if you are losing a lot of heat in the transfer from kettle to MLT. Take sample temps of your mash at various points and shoot for 152 mash rest temp and see what happens. I hope that help!




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[Yooper]

Thanks. I think there is an off flavor in all of my beers but it is fainter in say an IPA and no one else I give them too seems to think that there is an issue. Starting to work on figuring out my ph and water chemistry stuff.

And I guess I have gotten two answers for sparge water temp. One person has said around 180 degress and the other has said around 170. Which do I go with?

Add whatever temperature water you need to use to get/keep the grainbed at 168 or so. For me, when I batch sparge, I will use water that is about 185-190 degrees to bring the 152 degree grainbed up to 168. It's ok if it's cooler than that.

 

[stpug]

1. Is the bubbling wort into the kettle an issue? Hot side aeration? I have hear that is not really an issue with homebrewers, I don't have a stale flvor to my beer, but it would be easy to just buy a longer piece of tubing.

2. Should I be mashing out? Once again I have read some people say they do it and others that they don't. Will it help with mash ph or not extracting tannins?
Is the easiest way to just add boiling water and do I need to worry about the new water to grist ratio?

3. Should my sparge water be a high temp? It seems like I want my grain to be at 168 degrees and therefor my sparge water hotter?

1) Hot side aeration is still highly debated. There's no clear cut answer on this BUT it's pretty easy to keep splashing to a minimum and avoid the potential anyway.

2) No mashing out is needed in batch sparging unless you have your 140-160 wort sitting around for a long time before getting on a heat source. If you're draining quickly and getting on a burner quickly then you're good. If you drain slowly and it takes 45-60 minutes to get on a burner then a mash out might be helpful to "freeze" your malt profile, otherwise the enzymes will continue to work over the course of the next hour effectively changing the body/mouthfeel you mashed for.

2) Mash out will not help with mash pH or tannin extraction; in fact, it may lead to increased potential of tannin extraction of your water chemistry (pH, alkalinity) is screwy. Reason being that it will increase your grain temp to the point that tannin extraction will start occuring (~170F) and then you'll be sparging with even hotter water thereby extracting the tannins that cause the usual astringency.

2) Yes, boiling water is easiest and no need to worry about new water:grist ratio as long as you know what preboil volume you're aiming for. BUT, this doesn't mean that you need to do a mash out - just that boiling water is fine and the ratio is irrelevant.

3) Your sparge water can be from cold to boiling, or anywhere inbetween. Water chemistry may dictate that you keep things on the moderate side, otherwise your choice of sparge water temperature is up to you. A recommended range is 170-185F to help with rinsing the sugars (debatable) and keep your wort hot so achieving your boil comes quicker.

 

[stpug]

I am having some off flavors and in my darker (porters, stouts) a little tannic off flavors, just seeing if it might have to do with not mashing out or too low of sparge temps.

As others have said, alkalinity of your sparge water, and to some extent the pH, is a key factor in tannin extraction during the sparge. Read the following for good information from a pro on the topic:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19007.msg242204#msg242204

 

[jbaysurfer]

Thanks. I think there is an off flavor in all of my beers but it is fainter in say an IPA and no one else I give them too seems to think that there is an issue. Starting to work on figuring out my ph and water chemistry stuff.

And I guess I have gotten two answers for sparge water temp. One person has said around 180 degress and the other has said around 170. Which do I go with?

I batch sparge, and when I'm using my cooler system I go w/ 185 on the sparge water temp. The warmer the batch sparge, the more the residuals sugars in the grain bed will dissolve into solution and the better extraction you'll get. By the time I'm done I'm still not at 168, but I'm getting good results. Mashing out has multiple purposes, but one reason it's done in fly sparge systems is because fly sparging takes longer then batch sparging and brewers want to lock in the starch profiles of their beers. If they don't mash out, the long chain starches will breakdown in the kettle creating a more fermentable wort then they intended. The effect can be subtle, but in a hobby where people want the ultimate control, mashing out gives them one more tool.

In a batch sparge scenario the sparge is done much more quickly and the starch profile of the wort sitting in the kettle doesn't have as much time to break down prior to the boil. Another way to combat this phenomenon is to put your kettle on the burner after the first runnings and fire it up. By the time you're done sparging, the first runnings will be near boil point and you won't have as long to wait until your full volume comes up to a boil.