Mash Temperature Would this technique work

[byronyasgur]

I brew stovetop BIAB in a standard cookpot. If I'm doing a beer where the recipe calls for say 152 like many do, then I am typically putting in a lot of work to hit the correct temp strike water, then the correct mashing temp and then to keep it there for the duration of the mash. Given that mash temperatures are effective from 148 through 158, then, notwithstanding the effect it will have on fermentatbilty and body, would it be OK for me to aim for a mash temperature of 158 and let it cool however much it cools ( prob 5 or 6 degrees I guess if I didn't intervene with a bit of heat) and as long as it didn't go lower than 148 it should be all fine. I know this is a long way from advanced brewing and the typical goals of an all grain brewer as far as determining the fermentability and body of the beer is concerned, but I'm really only starting out and my equipment is pretty modest at this point, and I'm pretty busy and trying to make life easy on myself.
If this would work then would I be likely to get a full bodied or a drier beer or would that be possible to determine.

 

[madscientist451]

I am typically putting in a lot of work to hit the correct temp strike water

The method you are suggesting might work but then again it might not.
Use an on line strike water calculator to get your strike temp. What work is involved in that? When it comes to within 10 degrees keep an eye on it.
When you hit the temp, slide the pot off the burner if you are using electric.
Add your grain, take the temp, lay a piece of foil right on the grain/water, add the pot lid and wrap it up in a blanket and don't fuss with it for an hour.
After an hour, check the temp, it should be pretty close.
I got tired of temperature swings with BIAB in a pot and got a cheapo round cooler at Walmart, ($20) added a spigot and put my BIAB bag in there. No temp swings, and no mess when you pull the bag out.

 

[ed007]

Homebrewing is not an exact science. In my experience, a few degrees here and there are not noticeable in the final product. You will probably make a full bodied beer (more unfermentable sugars known as dextrins) but it will be fine. It does not matter for an ale, but if you make a lager, you would have to start your mash at around 150-152 and let it drop into upper 140's where beta amylase is more active for more fermentable and crisp dry beer.
We are really talking about a temperature range and not exact temperatures in homebrew world. For exact temperature control you need recirculation and mixing the mash to make the temperature uniform. There is also the accuracy of measuring equipment.
All else equal, I don't think that anybody can taste a difference between a beer mashed at 154 and 150. Guys at Brulosophy have done many experiments to dispel homebrewing dogmas.
Mash and brew away. You will probably end up with good beer. Even if you start at 158 and drop to 148 over 1 hour (unlikely) you will likely end up with a balanced beer (your mash would have covered a range of activity of alpha and beta amylase enzyme).

 

[ed007]

Here it is

View attachment 1485387282696.jpg

 

[byronyasgur]

What work is involved in that? When it comes to within 10 degrees keep an eye on it.
When you hit the temp, slide the pot off the burner if you are using electric.
Add your grain, take the temp, lay a piece of foil right on the grain/water, add the pot lid and wrap it up in a blanket and don't fuss with it for an hour.

yes that's pretty much exactly what I was suggesting - and no of course it wasn't calculating the strike water that was the work beersmith does that for me, the work I meant is getting the strike water to the exact temp and then keeping the mash at 152 or whatever for the duration of the mash, usually opening it every 10 to 20 and applying heat, stirring and standing there with a thermometer to keep it +/- 1 or 2 degrees within the mash temp.

I got tired of temperature swings with BIAB in a pot and got a cheapo round cooler at Walmart, ($20) added a spigot and put my BIAB bag in there. No temp swings, and no mess when you pull the bag out.

funny I was just wondering if that would work not 2 hours ago - might try it

Homebrewing is not an exact science. ...For exact temperature control you need recirculation and mixing the mash to make the temperature uniform. There is also the accuracy of measuring equipment.
All else equal, I don't think that anybody can taste a difference between a beer mashed at 154 and 150. Guys at Brulosophy have done many experiments to dispel homebrewing dogmas.
Mash and brew away. You will probably end up with good beer. Even if you start at 158 and drop to 148 over 1 hour (unlikely) you will likely end up with a balanced beer (your mash would have covered a range of activity of alpha and beta amylase enzyme).

sounds like I'll give it a go, thanks

 

[TomVA]

I pre-heat my oven to its minimum temperature of 170°F then, after adding my grains to the strike water, I shut off the oven, open the door for two minutes to cool it into the 150s and place my mash pot in the oven. Holds the temperature very well.

TomVA

 

[RM-MN]

I mill my grains very fine and don't worry about the temperature drop in an hour long mash because the conversion is done in less than 10 minutes. Hit the strike temp, stir in the grains, put a lid on and walk away. I don't bother to stir. Once the conversion it done it does no good nor does adding heat.

Make sure to leave the grains in the mash long enough to extract the color and flavor from the other grains. 30 minutes seems to be long enough. If your conversion isn't done by then, adjust the mill finer. You can use iodine to test for full conversion. Make sure your sample for that contains the grain particles as that is where the unconverted starches will be.

 

[Kent88]

I mill my grains very fine and don't worry about the temperature drop in an hour long mash because the conversion is done in less than 10 minutes. Hit the strike temp, stir in the grains, put a lid on and walk away. I don't bother to stir.

10 minutes???

Check out this link and then part two here. These podcasts are some pretty good discussions into mash theory. They would likely disagree with your idea that conversion takes 10 minutes. I am curious what base malt you use that it finishes so quickly.

I find when I don't stir my grains in as I add them I get clumps of grain where the water doesn't seem to permeate into the center. Edit: You do stir in your grain. I should make sure I read what I quote.

@ed007 I think that so far there are only 2 brulosophy experiments on mash temperature, here and here. While neither experiment made for beers that were different enough for the taste testers to give statistically significant results, there was a difference in FG with the 147F vs 161F experiment.

 

[RM-MN]

10 minutes???

Check out this link and then part two here. These podcasts are some pretty good discussions into mash theory. They would likely disagree with your idea that conversion takes 10 minutes. I am curious what base malt you use that it finishes so quickly.

I find when I don't stir my grains in as I add them I get clumps of grain where the water doesn't seem to permeate into the center. Edit: You do stir in your grain. I should make sure I read what I quote.

@ed007 I think that so far there are only 2 brulosophy experiments on mash temperature, here and here. While neither experiment made for beers that were different enough for the taste testers to give statistically significant results, there was a difference in FG with the 147F vs 161F experiment.

I would disagree with me too because in my experimentation I found that with very finely milled grains the conversion was done (using iodine to test for presence of starch) in less than 2 minutes. Conversion doesn't take long. Gelatinizing the starches so they can convert takes the time. If you were to grind your base malt to flour the conversion is nearly instantaneous.

 

[dmtaylor]

Conversion of starches into dextrins is indeed fast. But, if only mashed for 5-10 minutes you probably wouldn't enjoy the beer as much as if you mash for >40 minutes because it does in fact take more time to break down a very dextrinous wort into simpler sugars that are more fermentable. The whole reason we mash for so long is to ensure our beer will taste like beer and not some kind of near-beer soup.

Getting back to the OP, I do pretty much exactly the same thing that you propose, except that instead of going from 158 to 148 F, which would kill most of the beta amylase, I start closer to 153-154 F and allow to fall to the mid 140s. Also, to save time, I only mash for 40-45 minutes instead of the typical 60-90. I've done this for almost 100 batches over the past 11 years. This process usually makes a pretty darn good beer, with reasonable attenuation. If I want really good attenuation, then I'll go up to the full 60 or 75. I never mash for 90 except for saisons.

Cheers.

 

[OddBrew]

Hit the strike temp, stir in the grains, put a lid on and walk away. I don't bother to stir. Once the conversion it done it does no good nor does adding heat.

I have been wondering about this recently. Primarily, is stirring mid-mash adding any benefit?

On one hand, without stirring you would loose less heat during the mash, but on the other hand, wouldn't the mash be a more uniform temperature if stirred occasionally? Or maybe that's where the discussion in this thread is going... it ultimately doesn't matter if the mash is at a uniform temp for the entire mash?

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Enzymes don't work this way! As long as you are in the range where both alpha and beta are active you should be OK, but the higher the initial strike temp the more beta will be denatured and the less fermentable the wort. You can start low and increase temp so you get the benefit of the most active enzymes in each temp range, but if you start too high you will denature enzymes that you would prefer to have active. Just my 2 cents. And I absolutely taste a difference in a beer mashed at 154-156 and a beer mashed at 148 which is why we shoot for different mash temps for different styles

 

[dmtaylor]

Stir really well at the beginning of the mash, and then yes, just leave it alone. You lose too much heat everytime you stir, and no, perfectly uniform temperature is not necessary. Just stir really really well for 5-10 minutes at the beginning of the mash, and you're good to go.

 

[RM-MN]

Conversion of starches into dextrins is indeed fast. But, if only mashed for 5-10 minutes you probably wouldn't enjoy the beer as much as if you mash for >40 minutes because it does in fact take more time to break down a very dextrinous wort into simpler sugars that are more fermentable. The whole reason we mash for so long is to ensure our beer will taste like beer and not some kind of near-beer soup.

Getting back to the OP, I do pretty much exactly the same thing that you propose, except that instead of going from 158 to 148 F, which would kill most of the beta amylase, I start closer to 153-154 F and allow to fall to the mid 140s. Also, to save time, I only mash for 40-45 minutes instead of the typical 60-90. I've done this for almost 100 batches over the past 11 years. This process usually makes a pretty darn good beer, with reasonable attenuation. If I want really good attenuation, then I'll go up to the full 60 or 75. I never mash for 90 except for saisons.

Cheers.

The experimental beer that I mashed for only 10 minutes attenuated as well as the ones I did for 30 or 60. If it were primarily dextrines it would not have.

 

[dmtaylor]

The experimental beer that I mashed for only 10 minutes attenuated as well as the ones I did for 30 or 60. If it were primarily dextrines it would not have.

I believe it. One of the Basic Brewing Radio experiments found the same thing and Kai Troester surmised that it must be due to prevalence of beta amylase which doesn't last long in a typical mash but in less than 10 minutes there is plenty of it working quickly. And...... Efficiency was pretty rotten, like less than 50%. So that is another reason to mash longer. Even if most of the beta denatures in a few more minutes, there is enough of it left that a little longer mashing time is worthwhile for efficiency if nothing else. But yeah, I do see your point as well. Cheers.

 

[RM-MN]

I believe it. One of the Basic Brewing Radio experiments found the same thing and Kai Troester surmised that it must be due to prevalence of beta amylase which doesn't last long in a typical mash but in less than 10 minutes there is plenty of it working quickly. And...... Efficiency was pretty rotten, like less than 50%. So that is another reason to mash longer. Even if most of the beta denatures in a few more minutes, there is enough of it left that a little longer mashing time is worthwhile for efficiency if nothing else. But yeah, I do see your point as well. Cheers.

The quality of the milling makes a huge difference. If you read my posts I regularly mention that when low efficiency is a problem and someone wants to fix it by changing mash pH or using 6-row malt that the 3 most important factors are:
1. The crush
2. The crush
3. The crush.

With the fine milling that I use, I get high efficiency even with a very short mash. If Kai got only 50%, the crush is the problem, not the short mash.

I still don't advocate mashing for less than 30 minutes because it takes longer to extract the flavor even if the conversion is done in less than 10.

 

[dmtaylor]

The quality of the milling makes a huge difference. If you read my posts I regularly mention that when low efficiency is a problem and someone wants to fix it by changing mash pH or using 6-row malt that the 3 most important factors are:
1. The crush
2. The crush
3. The crush.

With the fine milling that I use, I get high efficiency even with a very short mash. If Kai got only 50%, the crush is the problem, not the short mash.

I still don't advocate mashing for less than 30 minutes because it takes longer to extract the flavor even if the conversion is done in less than 10.

I totally 100% agree with this.

 

[broadbill]

Enzymes don't work this way! As long as you are in the range where both alpha and beta are active you should be OK, but the higher the initial strike temp the more beta will be denatured and the less fermentable the wort. You can start low and increase temp so you get the benefit of the most active enzymes in each temp range, but if you start too high you will denature enzymes that you would prefer to have active. Just my 2 cents. And I absolutely taste a difference in a beer mashed at 154-156 and a beer mashed at 148 which is why we shoot for different mash temps for different styles

You should check out the brulosophy experiments linked earlier in the thread...If you are able to tell the difference between beers mashed at 154-156 and 148 you are in the slim minority. I suspect you would not be able to if blinded to the ID of the samples. Just my 0.02, based on those experiments.

 

[byronyasgur]

I do pretty much exactly the same thing that you propose, except that instead of going from 158 to 148 F, which would kill most of the beta amylase, I start closer to 153-154 F and allow to fall to the mid 140s.

that makes sense - very new to all grain - is there no issue with letting the temp fall to the mid 140s?

 

[dmtaylor]

that makes sense - very new to all grain - is there no issue with letting the temp fall to the mid 140s?

None at all that I can think of. The beta amylase will die off a bit but enough remains active to keep on chugging. Meanwhile the alpha amylase will not be quite as active, but I haven't found that to be a problem at all. See ed007's graph on the previous page -- @ed007, that is a very nice graph, thanks.

If you are at all concerned about the best efficiency and attenuation, then mash for 60 minutes. But in my experience, 40-45 minutes is actually good enough for most styles as long as you have a really good fine crush of the grains (which I do). If the LHBS is milling your grains for you, then I'd recommend mashing for the 60 minutes, and/or ask them to double-crush for you.

 

[Kent88]

is there no issue with letting the temp fall to the mid 140s?

The alpha enzyme isn't going to be as active in the mid 140s. If you're working in a kettle on the stove then just heat it back up a few degress. If you mash in an insulated cooler, just add an infusion of a little boiling water.

 

[RM-MN]

None at all that I can think of. The beta amylase will die off a bit but enough remains active to keep on chugging. Meanwhile the alpha amylase will not be quite as active, but I haven't found that to be a problem at all. See ed007's graph on the previous page -- @ed007, that is a very nice graph, thanks.

If you are at all concerned about the best efficiency and attenuation, then mash for 60 minutes. But in my experience, 40-45 minutes is actually good enough for most styles as long as you have a really good fine crush of the grains (which I do). If the LHBS is milling your grains for you, then I'd recommend mashing for the 60 minutes, and/or ask them to double-crush for you.

I'd recommend buying a bottle of iodine (about $10 at the pharmacy) and use that to test for conversion. You will need some grains in the sample because that will be where the unconverted starches remain. If the iodine turns blue, there is still starch so mash longer, perhaps to 90 minutes or longer (limited return on longer mashes) If you still have starches showing at 90 minutes, buy your own mill because the LHBS isn't doing you any favors with their milling.

I've experimented with short mashes and conversion can happen very quickly. Extracting color and flavor takes more time. I don't recommend less than 30 minutes in any case because really short mashes, regardless of conversion, get you a flavorless beer.

 

[Weezy]

The experimental beer that I mashed for only 10 minutes attenuated as well as the ones I did for 30 or 60. If it were primarily dextrines it would not have.

RM-MN and I have been on this same page for years. We cook (mash) our grain to get the starches into solution so that the enzymes can convert them. The time for conversion is practically momentary once the starches are available. The grain size is directly proportional to required mash time. I'm using a new Brutus 20 setup now, with a bag in the MLT, and I mash for about 10 minutes before starting recirculation with the sparge water. I only have two brews with this setup so far and I'm at 78-79% efficiency with no squeeze. I still need to dial it in too. Need more time to brew!

This is just a different way to look at it. I've gone through a handful of different techniques and I have no regrets with any of them... Foil and blanket wrap, cooler, recirculation with direct heat, rims.

 

[Aristotelian]

Another vote for putting it in the oven at your desired mash temp.