mash/sparge is the bane of my existence

[jamessh]

I am currently on my third AG so I am still relatively new w/r/t this whole process.

I brewed an IPA today. 13 lbs crushed grain from LHBS including: 10 2-row pale, 2 munich and 1 crystal. I heated the strike water to about 195-200F and let it sit in my mash tun (an insulated igloo cooler) until it hit roughly 180F. After dough in (at 180F) my temperature was still a bit high so I left the lid open and let it drop to 160F then closed the lid. The temperature had dropped about 10F during the 60 minute mash so I will assume that I was within the acceptable range during this time. I mashed with 3.5 gallons of liquid.

I heated sparge water in the BK to about 195 and added some of this water, essentially enough to get the temperature up to 170ish (which it was) and began to drain the mash tun (the cooler functions dually as a mash and lautering tun) -- I have a subQuestion at this point: is it bad to oxygenate the beer at this point, in the Joy of home brewing it says avoid bubbles, and introducing oxygen -- I used a couple grain bags and so I did not vorlauf. This whole time I had someone pressing the grain bags with a large spoon, almost flattening them out and mixing the water in thoroughly. The sparge water was introduced through a metal strainer sitting on top of the grain bag (probably more important if one is not using bags so that the grain bed remains intact).

A) I collected all of the runnings together and then about 15 minutes later I took a small amount of the liquid from the MLT and tested its SG. It was almost 1.060.

B) after decoction (i.e. boiling to five gallons) I checked the starting gravity and it was around 1.040. My target was 1.066 so I thought for sure after checking it at 120F and measuring 1.060 that I would be able to nail it, if not go higher

What went wrong?

This observation could suggest several things:
1) There was the potential for higher alcohol as per the observation in (A)
or
2) This liquid was the stuff sitting around in the cooler, pressed against the grains the longest, the "dregs" if you will thus it would imply that some runnings may be stronger than others

Now I did not get my temperature up to 170 and then close the lid, stir (or in my case press/agitate) and let it sit for 10 minutes so maybe this was my problem but I still don't think that would be responsible for such a discrepancy.

pointers w/r/t this whole process would be greatly appreciated

Thank you.

 

[Yooper]

A) I collected all of the runnings together and then about 15 minutes later I took a small amount of the liquid from the MLT and tested its SG. It was almost 1.060.

B) after decoction (i.e. boiling to five gallons) I checked the starting gravity and it was around 1.040. My target was 1.066 so I thought for sure after checking it at 120F and measuring 1.060 that I would be able to nail it, if not go higher

What went wrong?

This observation could suggest several things:
1) There was the potential for higher alcohol as per the observation in (A)
or
2) This liquid was the stuff sitting around in the cooler, pressed against the grains the longest, the "dregs" if you will thus it would imply that some runnings may be stronger than others

Now I did not get my temperature up to 170 and then close the lid, stir (or in my case press/agitate) and let it sit for 10 minutes so maybe this was my problem but I still don't think that would be responsible for such a discrepancy.

pointers w/r/t this whole process would be greatly appreciated

Thank you.

Doughing in when the strike water is 180 is too hot. You want to dough in when your strike water is about 10 degrees warmer than your desired mash temperature. Mashing in the 160s is too hot.

Next time, preheat your MLT with 180 degree water and let it drop to about 165 before adding your grain.

As far as sparging, you may find it easier to "batch sparge" when using grainbags.

I don't think you did a decoction. I'm not sure what you mean by using that term here, though. You just brought the runnings up to a boil? That's fine.

I'm not sure I understand what you did, though. You mentioned adding the runnings together and getting a reading of 1.060, but all the runnings were in the MLT and not the boil kettle? Normally, you run off from the MLT into the boil kettle and that is where the second runnings mix with the first runnings.

If you could list your steps more simply, in order, maybe we could figure out exactly what you did so we can help point you in a more efficient direction. Like:

1. Mixed 10 pounds of grain in cooler with a false bottom. Held at 160 for an hour.

2. Drained.

Etc.

I just can't quite figure out how much wort you had, preboil or post boil, and when you took the OG and if it was with the grain in it, and so on.

 

[jhamilt]

The answer to your question about oxygenation is yes, its a bad thing to oxygenate your wort during the sparge. Its usually referred to as hot side aeration and should be avoided until the wort is chilled. I don't think I've ever had a problem with it myself but I've read that it can lead to stale flavors in your beer, like wet cardboard. If you're picking up on any those flavors in your finished product I'd recommend being gentler with your wort.

 

[doublehaul]

The answer to your question about oxygenation is yes, its a bad thing to oxygenate your wort during the sparge. Its usually referred to as hot side aeration and should be avoided until the wort is chilled. I don't think I've ever had a problem with it myself but I've read that it can lead to stale flavors in your beer, like wet cardboard. If you're picking up on any those flavors in your finished product I'd recommend being gentler with your wort.

I am new to this too, and have a hard time not aerating when adding the sparge water. My mash tun is the 10 gallon round cooler, and it's akward to pour water into from a pitcher into it. Today I dumped in 2 gallons at once before remembering aerating at this point was bad. How do you make this step easier? I was thinking another 5 gallon round cooler with a valve and a hose would be good but are there any better or cheaper ways to go?

 

[Darwin18]

The answer to your question about oxygenation is yes, its a bad thing to oxygenate your wort during the sparge. Its usually referred to as hot side aeration and should be avoided until the wort is chilled. I don't think I've ever had a problem with it myself but I've read that it can lead to stale flavors in your beer, like wet cardboard. If you're picking up on any those flavors in your finished product I'd recommend being gentler with your wort.

First of all, hot side aeration is arguably a myth.

Secondly, you're going to boil your wort after the sparge. The boil is going to remove a significant amount of oxygen from the wort, which is why it is recommended to aerate after the wort has been chilled. If you're going to worry about hot side aeration, it's AFTER the boil, not before.

 

[periwinkle1239]

Don't worry about hot side aeration. It is not your problem.

Your post is a bit confusing, but sounds like the temps were off. If you're mashing for 13 lbs of grain at 1.25 qts/lb for a target of 152 degrees, the you should've had 4 gal of water at 165 degrees. Check this page out, it's classic http://www.brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php Sorry to say but you way over-shot your mash temp if what you say is indeed accurate.

It's all good, again hot side aeration has nothing to do with efficiency. I hope this doesn't deter you, but there are lots of good threads on this forum that can help you with AG brewing. Good luck!

 

[Wingy]

I am currently on my third AG so I am still relatively new w/r/t this whole process.

I brewed an IPA today. 13 lbs crushed grain from LHBS including: 10 2-row pale, 2 munich and 1 crystal. I heated the strike water to about 195-200F and let it sit in my mash tun (an insulated igloo cooler) until it hit roughly 180F. After dough in (at 180F) my temperature was still a bit high so I left the lid open and let it drop to 160F then closed the lid. The temperature had dropped about 10F during the 60 minute mash so I will assume that I was within the acceptable range during this time. I mashed with 3.5 gallons of liquid.

I heated sparge water in the BK to about 195 and added some of this water, essentially enough to get the temperature up to 170ish (which it was) and began to drain the mash tun (the cooler functions dually as a mash and lautering tun) -- I have a subQuestion at this point: is it bad to oxygenate the beer at this point, in the Joy of home brewing it says avoid bubbles, and introducing oxygen -- I used a couple grain bags and so I did not vorlauf. This whole time I had someone pressing the grain bags with a large spoon, almost flattening them out and mixing the water in thoroughly. The sparge water was introduced through a metal strainer sitting on top of the grain bag (probably more important if one is not using bags so that the grain bed remains intact).

A) I collected all of the runnings together and then about 15 minutes later I took a small amount of the liquid from the MLT and tested its SG. It was almost 1.060.

B) after decoction (i.e. boiling to five gallons) I checked the starting gravity and it was around 1.040. My target was 1.066 so I thought for sure after checking it at 120F and measuring 1.060 that I would be able to nail it, if not go higher

What went wrong?

This observation could suggest several things:
1) There was the potential for higher alcohol as per the observation in (A)
or
2) This liquid was the stuff sitting around in the cooler, pressed against the grains the longest, the "dregs" if you will thus it would imply that some runnings may be stronger than others

Now I did not get my temperature up to 170 and then close the lid, stir (or in my case press/agitate) and let it sit for 10 minutes so maybe this was my problem but I still don't think that would be responsible for such a discrepancy.

pointers w/r/t this whole process would be greatly appreciated

Thank you.

This may be a silly question, but what was the temperature of the wort when you took your gravity sample? If the sample was at around 100 deg F when you measured it, you would be seriously underestimating the gravity. This site has a handy calculator to correct for the that - I've checked the conversion by starting a sample at 120 deg F, taking a reading, calculating what the true gravity is after temperature correction, and then taking another reading at 60 deg F (what the hydrometer is calibrated for) and the numbers match up perfectly.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/hydrometer-temp/

I had problems hitting my OG on first AG too - extending the mash time to 75 minutes will help ensure complete conversion if you can't test with iodine, and the other trick which helped boost me from ~60% efficiency to 78% was a double batch sparge. When you add each sparge addition, stir well and let sit for 10 minutes, this will help to solubilize any remaining sugars and improve extraction. Good luck! It gets easier every time.

You're right about the runnings getting "thinner" each time you lauter. Each time you lauter there is less total sugar so there's less gravity potential you're pulling out in each step. It's kind of cool watching the color change from dark to light with each progressive lauter step.

 

[Pie_Man]

A) I collected all of the runnings together and then about 15 minutes later I took a small amount of the liquid from the MLT and tested its SG. It was almost 1.060.

B) after decoction (i.e. boiling to five gallons) I checked the starting gravity and it was around 1.040. My target was 1.066 so I thought for sure after checking it at 120F and measuring 1.060 that I would be able to nail it, if not go higher

Something is off with your gravity reading(s), your ending gravity will be higher than your pre-boil gravity because the wort is more concentrated after boiling. Did you account for the wort's temperature at the time of the readings?

On a side note, a decoction is a type of mash where part of the grains are boiled and then returned to the main mash. It seems like you're referring to boiling the wort. No big deal, just thought I'd mention it.

 

[jhamilt]

I am new to this too, and have a hard time not aerating when adding the sparge water. My mash tun is the 10 gallon round cooler, and it's akward to pour water into from a pitcher into it. Today I dumped in 2 gallons at once before remembering aerating at this point was bad. How do you make this step easier? I was thinking another 5 gallon round cooler with a valve and a hose would be good but are there any better or cheaper ways to go?

From the sound of it I'd think efficiency would be the bigger concern with your setup than hot side aeration. If you're doing a continuous sparge you want to slowly and evenly rinse the grains, over the course of an hour or so. That way you maximize the amount of sugars making it into your wort. That's a real pain to accomplish by pouring water from a pitcher. The cooler with a valve is probably a pretty good option and fairly cheap. For my hot liquor tank I took a 6.5 gallon plastic fermenting bucket and put in a 1500W heating element for a water heater. ($12 at home depot) The whole thing cost about 30$ minus the valve, hose, and sprinkler, and it works pretty well. I sprinkle the water on the grains through a pvc manifold I made with a bunch of 1/16" holes drilled in it. (Pretty cheap, less than 10$).

You could also try batch sparging, which would probably eliminate the need for you to get more equipment.

 

[erikhild59]

Strike water of 166F works for me , doughing in at 180 will give you much too high a mash temp, which can denature all the enzymes you need for conversion. The previously mentioned calculator on the brew365.com website is a good one.

 

[wozzer]

Wort S.G. cannot be lower after the boil - it will always be higher. This is because some water has boiled off, but there has been no change in sugars, so the wort becomes more and more concentrated the longer you boil it. So your problem is with the readings.

The two things that gave me trouble initially were not adjusting for temperature, and not mixing the wort after sparging before taking a reading (if you float the hydrometer in your wort immediately after sparging, you will get a low reading, but if you draw a little off from the bottom, you will get a high reading. The wort has to be thoroughly stirred if you want an accurate reading).

 

[Franco]

Something is off with your gravity reading(s), your ending gravity will be higher than your pre-boil gravity because the wort is more concentrated after boiling.

This stood out to me too - did you boil more than 5 gallons down to 5 gallons, or add water to make your volume 5 gallons?

Also, until now I didn't fully understand the whole "don't worry, relax, have a homebrew" until my first all grain. I overshot my mash temps by about 10* came in WAY low on my sparge water volume, AND accidentally doubled the bittering hops. Still made an excellent beer!

 

[BrewKnurd]

If you checked the gravity of what was left in the MLT, which is what it sounded like, then yes, there is a potential that is higher than the gravity of your total runnings depending on how you did your sparge. I batch sparge, and stir the hell out of everything, so what's left at the bottom of my MLT will be lower gravity than my total runnings. But I'm guessing in your case, the sample you ended up with was from the dead space below your spigot, and therefore that was basically first runnings material that never got watered down with sparge water.

In the future, I would recommend just taking the gravity of your total runnings (i usually wait until after the boil starts, so its well mixed), vs trying to approximate off of what's left in the MLT. What's left in the MLT will almost guaranteedly not be equal to the gravity in your kettle.

Also, you shouldn't be losing 10 degrees in an hour in a cooler MLT. Sounds like maybe your mash tun wasn't fully pre-heated.

 

[jamessh]

Wow I really appreciate all of the comments.

I will post some additional information. My initial post was slightly erratic as I was frustrated.

I did account for temperature and I know that there is an adjustment, albeit a minor one, that must be made for temperatures above 60F. This was not a concern or a problem.

I had about 6-ish gallons of undiluted wort and then boiled to concentrate the wort and attain 5 gallons of fermentable, hopped wort.

The two gravities that I reported A) 1.058 and B) 1.040 were both adjusted for the temperature. Sample A) was something that was left in the MLT (cooler) following sparging, maybe 10-15 minutes after the runnings were collected and the BK was fired up and sample B) was drained out of the spigot of my fermentation bucket after transferring the wort, prior to yeast inoculation, from the BK.

A more reasonable question might now be: Why the discrepancy? I assure you that all of my measurements were absolutely accurate. What seems important to me from these posts-

1) strike water must be accurate volume (1.00-1.25 qt / 1.0 lb grain)
2) strike water must be heated to a higher temperature than the dough-in temperature, the excess heat can be used to heat the MLT, and then dough in closer to 165-167F (I did see the website, thanks)
3) when sparging, mix in the sparge water thoroughly, let temperature hit 170F-ish and let stand for 10 minutes and then begin to collect runnings

Is this a fair assessment?

I now have one additional question. If I am using grain bags and using a single vessel for mashing and lautering do I drain all of the liquid from the MLT during the first batch sparge or do I leave some residual liquid prior to the introduction of the second batch of hot water.

 

[jamessh]

One more question:

Could anyone give me some information regarding false bottom installation w/r/t an insulated cooler. What has worked, materials, cost, etc.?

 

[Darwin18]

1) strike water must be accurate volume (1.00-1.25 qt / 1.0 lb grain)
2) strike water must be heated to a higher temperature than the dough-in temperature, the excess heat can be used to heat the MLT, and then dough in closer to 165-167F (I did see the website, thanks)
3) when sparging, mix in the sparge water thoroughly, let temperature hit 170F-ish and let stand for 10 minutes and then begin to collect runnings.

Why are you mashing so thick? You can increase the mash thickness. I usually do 1.5 - 2.0 qt/lb. Increasing your water volume increases the solubility of sugars into the water - although you do need to watch your pH.

How thoroughly are you stirring the mash? You need to stir the hell out of the mash, and the sparge. Make sure you don't have any doughballs and everything is thoroughly mixed.

I would really recommend getting a version of Beersmith. It would calculate the temperatures and volumes you will need with your equipment profile. Really invaluable tool IMO.

 

[BrewThruYou]

I think you could really use a brewing software program. It takes all the guesswork out of strike/sparge water temps and volumes.

 

[Pie_Man]

The two gravities that I reported A) 1.058 and B) 1.040 were both adjusted for the temperature. Sample A) was something that was left in the MLT (cooler) following sparging, maybe 10-15 minutes after the runnings were collected and the BK was fired up and sample B) was drained out of the spigot of my fermentation bucket after transferring the wort, prior to yeast inoculation, from the BK.

A more reasonable question might now be: Why the discrepancy? I assure you that all of my measurements were absolutely accurate. What seems important to me from these posts-

1) strike water must be accurate volume (1.00-1.25 qt / 1.0 lb grain)
2) strike water must be heated to a higher temperature than the dough-in temperature, the excess heat can be used to heat the MLT, and then dough in closer to 165-167F (I did see the website, thanks)
3) when sparging, mix in the sparge water thoroughly, let temperature hit 170F-ish and let stand for 10 minutes and then begin to collect runnings

Is this a fair assessment?

Yes, that's a pretty accurate assessment. I'd also advise that brewing software like Beersmith ($20), or BrewTarget (free), are your friends and will help take the guess work out of mash volumes and temperature.

As far as the gravity issue, as others having suggested, taking the gravity reading from what was left at the bottom of the mash tun and not from well mixed wort seems to have skewed your initial reading. If you didn't add any additional water, it's impossible for the post-boil gravity to be lower than the pre-boil gravity as the sugars remain, but the water volume decreases with boiling thus leaving a more concentrated solution of sugar per volume of water. The pre-boil gravity must have been less than 1.040, this lower than anticipated gravity was probably due to using 180 degree water and denaturing some of your grains. I hope this helps.

 

[Wingy]

Wow I really appreciate all of the comments.

I will post some additional information. My initial post was slightly erratic as I was frustrated.

I did account for temperature and I know that there is an adjustment, albeit a minor one, that must be made for temperatures above 60F. This was not a concern or a problem.

I had about 6-ish gallons of undiluted wort and then boiled to concentrate the wort and attain 5 gallons of fermentable, hopped wort.

The two gravities that I reported A) 1.058 and B) 1.040 were both adjusted for the temperature. Sample A) was something that was left in the MLT (cooler) following sparging, maybe 10-15 minutes after the runnings were collected and the BK was fired up and sample B) was drained out of the spigot of my fermentation bucket after transferring the wort, prior to yeast inoculation, from the BK.

A more reasonable question might now be: Why the discrepancy? I assure you that all of my measurements were absolutely accurate. What seems important to me from these posts-

1) strike water must be accurate volume (1.00-1.25 qt / 1.0 lb grain)
2) strike water must be heated to a higher temperature than the dough-in temperature, the excess heat can be used to heat the MLT, and then dough in closer to 165-167F (I did see the website, thanks)
3) when sparging, mix in the sparge water thoroughly, let temperature hit 170F-ish and let stand for 10 minutes and then begin to collect runnings

Is this a fair assessment?

I now have one additional question. If I am using grain bags and using a single vessel for mashing and lautering do I drain all of the liquid from the MLT during the first batch sparge or do I leave some residual liquid prior to the introduction of the second batch of hot water.

When I batch sparge, I vorlauf/recirculate and drain the mash water completely, add in half my sparge volume at around 178, stir, let sit for ten minutes, and drain completely. I then add in the other half of the sparge water at 175(ish), stir, let sit for 10 minutes, and drain completely (remember to vorlauf/recirculate on both sparge steps!).

Beersmith helped a TON when I was trying to figure out mash temps/volumes. You can get a free trial for 20 days, so might as well see how you like it.

What are you using as a manifold/screen? It's fairly simple to build a manifold out of a copper tube or you could use the stainless braid conversion. Are grain bags serving as your filter? I built a manifold out of copper tubing (even with 0 mechanical skills it only took a few hours) and that helps to get almost all the wort out of the MLT so there's not much sitting in the bottom of the cooler when you're done.

 

[rinhaak]

One more question:

Could anyone give me some information regarding false bottom installation w/r/t an insulated cooler. What has worked, materials, cost, etc.?

I love the false bottom. I have a 10 gallon tun without the false bottom, and a 5 gallon tub with the false bottom. The 5 gallon tub is tremendously more reliable, much more efficient, and has never (yet!!) let to a stuck sparge. Well worth the investment.

Check out Northern Brewer for supplies:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/all-grain-system-mash-tun-5-gallons.html

And no one has mentioned it yet, but I use hopville for all of my calculations. It's free, and has been really really great. I highly recommend it.

 

[malevolent]

I love the false bottom. I have a 10 gallon tun without the false bottom, and a 5 gallon tub with the false bottom. The 5 gallon tub is tremendously more reliable, much more efficient, and has never (yet!!) let to a stuck sparge. Well worth the investment.

Check out Northern Brewer for supplies:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/all-grain-system-mash-tun-5-gallons.html

And no one has mentioned it yet, but I use hopville for all of my calculations. It's free, and has been really really great. I highly recommend it.

I have to agree. I have a false bottom in my 10 gallon cooler and I was seriously expecting a stuck sparge yesterday on my first AG brew. I used 3lb of flaked barley. How it didn't get stuck is amazing to me.

 

[Denny]

First of all, hot side aeration is arguably a myth.

Secondly, you're going to boil your wort after the sparge. The boil is going to remove a significant amount of oxygen from the wort, which is why it is recommended to aerate after the wort has been chilled. If you're going to worry about hot side aeration, it's after the boil, not before.

this^^^^^^

 

[Denny]

Wow I really appreciate all of the comments.

I will post some additional information. My initial post was slightly erratic as I was frustrated.

I did account for temperature and I know that there is an adjustment, albeit a minor one, that must be made for temperatures above 60F. This was not a concern or a problem.

I had about 6-ish gallons of undiluted wort and then boiled to concentrate the wort and attain 5 gallons of fermentable, hopped wort.

The two gravities that I reported A) 1.058 and B) 1.040 were both adjusted for the temperature. Sample A) was something that was left in the MLT (cooler) following sparging, maybe 10-15 minutes after the runnings were collected and the BK was fired up and sample B) was drained out of the spigot of my fermentation bucket after transferring the wort, prior to yeast inoculation, from the BK.

A more reasonable question might now be: Why the discrepancy? I assure you that all of my measurements were absolutely accurate. What seems important to me from these posts-

1) strike water must be accurate volume (1.00-1.25 qt / 1.0 lb grain)
2) strike water must be heated to a higher temperature than the dough-in temperature, the excess heat can be used to heat the MLT, and then dough in closer to 165-167F (I did see the website, thanks)
3) when sparging, mix in the sparge water thoroughly, let temperature hit 170F-ish and let stand for 10 minutes and then begin to collect runnings

Is this a fair assessment?

I now have one additional question. If I am using grain bags and using a single vessel for mashing and lautering do I drain all of the liquid from the MLT during the first batch sparge or do I leave some residual liquid prior to the introduction of the second batch of hot water.

Rather than try to correct everything here, I'd suggest you read www.dennybrew.com.