Mash Schedule for Pilsner-Heavy Lager?

[Clint Yeastwood]

I'm making a lager with lots of pilsner malt (10#) and some crystal (1.75#) {CORRECTION: 0.75#}. In the past, this stuff was not eager to attenuate all the way. I think maybe I mashed it too hot. I was told the pilsner malt I used was not all that highly modified.

Can someone give me advice on a schedule that will get this stuff fermented but still leave a little body? It looks like I mashed at 158, but 153 has been suggested to me.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Also, I recall having a big bag of amylase for some reason. Is this a good tool to have on hand?

 

[AlexKay]

You actually need to go to rather a lot of trouble to find malt that’s so undermodified that you can’t use a single infusion mash. Chances are very high the modification of your malt was not the problem.

158 is pretty hot.

You could use less crystal. Crystal attenuates less and leaves sweetness, which makes the beer taste underattenuated.

And if you want any body left at all, step away from the amylase.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I don't know how much, if at all, the malt picture has changed since I last made this in 2006.

 

[dmtaylor]

Way too much crystal. Traditional lagers use very little or no crystal. Keep it less than 1/2 lb, and mash not at 158(!) or 153 F, but at 149 F. That'll fix your issue for certain.

Save your amylase for a tsunami or when hell freezes over, whichever comes first.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Thanks, but it's not intended to be traditional. i just want to get it to ferment out.

 

[Immocles]

Well, thats the thing. If you want it to ferment out, you'll have to do one or the other, or both. The crystal malt and the high mash temp are going to leave you with a higher FG. You seem to like crystal and seem to brew quite often, so maybe keep the crystal this brew, or even just lower it slightly while mashing lower in the high 140s. Maybe itll give you a happy medium.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I appreciate the help. I'm going to lower the temperature.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I'm looking up Dingeman's Belgian Pilsen MD, which appears to be what I have. Dingeman's claims it's ideal for one-step mashes, so maybe I don't have to get complicated.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Okay, I decided to get complicated. How does this look?

144 degrees - 30 minutes
152 degrees - 30 minutes
170 degrees - 15 minutes

 

[Bassman2003]

What I have learned about mashing and attenuation is that time does more for attenuation than temperature to some extent. So if you want a fully attenuated light color beer, stay in beta and alpha for at least 45 minutes. So I would try:

148F - 45 minutes
161F - 30-45 minutes
172F - 10-15 minutes

Also, throw in some distiller's malt (1/4 pound) to bump up the enzyme amount for beta.

As a side note, in a podcast, Mitch Steele said when he worked at Anheuser-Busch, they mashed Bud Light for 5 hours at ~148F!

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Well, let's see. I want it to get down past 1.015, but I want some body, too. If I had to think of a factory beer which is not too far from the goal, I would pick Warsteiner.

 

[camonick]

If I had to think of a factory beer which is not too far from the goal, I would pick Warsteiner.

I can just about guarantee that Warsteiner uses 0% crystal malt.

Edit: spelling

 

[Miraculix]

If you want the crystal for flavour reasons, go ahead, otherwise reduce the amount or leave it out entirely.

Crystal will drive up the fg a bit, but it doesn't have to be that much with the right mashing regime. Google hochkurz mash, that's what you want to do. 30 minutes at 62c followed by 30 minutes at 72c plus short mashout at 77c. If you want, you can try to squeeze out a little bit more attenuation by prolonging each step by 15-30 minutes. But in my experience, 30 minutes each is already plenty.

You do not want to use your enzymes. And you also do not need any distillers malt. Pilsner malt is probably the common base malt with the highest amount of enzymes available. I have successfully brewed beer with 30% Pilsner and the rest wheat flour wich does not contain any enzymes at all.

You are all good regarding enzymes, only question is how to manage temperature to get them to work the most efficient way, which is laid out above.

 

[day_trippr]

I have successfully brewed beer with 30% Pilsner and the rest wheat flour

That sounds like a lautering nightmare

Cheers!

 

[Bassman2003]

Well, let's see. I want it to get down past 1.015, but I want some body, too. If I had to think of a factory beer which is not too far from the goal, I would pick Warsteiner.

It is a learning process but you might need to adjust your view of really good attenuation. The goal should be 80%+ Homebrewers and homebrew yeast companies often are stuck in the 70%'s when the commercial world is 80% and above. 1.015 for a lager would be a dumper You want to shoot for 1.007 or 1.008. (I have found that distillers malt helps in this regard). Do not be led to believe that great attenuation = thin. I know this from personal experience. Good attenuation takes the flabbiness out of your beers.

 

[Brooothru]

If you want the crystal for flavour reasons, go ahead, otherwise reduce the amount or leave it out entirely.

Crystal will drive up the fg a bit, but it doesn't have to be that much with the right mashing regime. Google hochkurz mash, that's what you want to do. 30 minutes at 62c followed by 30 minutes at 72c plus short mashout at 77c. If you want, you can try to squeeze out a little bit more attenuation by prolonging each step by 15-30 minutes. But in my experience, 30 minutes each is already plenty.

You do not want to use your enzymes. And you also do not need any distillers malt. Pilsner malt is probably the common base malt with the highest amount of enzymes available. I have successfully brewed beer with 30% Pilsner and the rest wheat flour wich does not contain any enzymes at all.

You are all good regarding enzymes, only question is how to manage temperature to get them to work the most efficient way, which is laid out above.

Definitely, re: Hoch-Kurz mashing.

I do what I call my Modified Hoch-Kurz (Dough-in @ 60C, Beta @ 62C for 25 min, Alpha @ 70C for 45 min, Mash out @ 76C) (140F-144F-158F-170F). I now do it on all my beers, not just lagers. Since I mash in at near optimum for Beta amylase, the times for Alpha vs. Beta end up nearly the same, especially considering the time it takes to increase the temperature from Beta to Alpha. The total mash time works out to 1:30 ~1:45 hours, which seems long (it is) but gives plenty of time for a more complete conversion while hitting all the optimum temperatures. I end up with very good efficiency and fermentability without sacrificing body and mouthfeel. I also have a very light hand when it comes to crystal malts, if I even use them in a recipe, substituting Vienna or Munich instead.

 

[Miraculix]

That sounds like a lautering nightmare

Cheers!

BIAB but even this way, it was not very pleasant.

But the beer was grrrreat!

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I didn't say I was copying Warsteiner. I can drive to the store and buy that. I'm making a lager which has a little body and sweetness in addition to a load of hops. I haven't had a Warsteiner in years, but I remember it as a lager that had some body and sweetness, so that's what I compared it to. I guess I could just as easily have said Harp.

I'm not looking for advice on the grain bill. Sorry if it seemed that way. This is an old recipe, and I'm happy with the grain. I just want to be sure I'm mashing the existing bill as well as I can. I already have a schedule that produces beer, but I want to keep learning and improving.

By the way, I made a typo. It's 0.75# crystal. A little different.

Things are changing so fast. A lot of information that was considered scripture 10 years ago is now considered garbage and mythology. I want to keep throwing out the trash and gathering new knowledge.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

It looks like no matter what I do, I should move saccharification to around 158. When I was doing one-step mashes, I was told I would be better off down around 152, but I suppose everything changes when you throw in a maltose rest.

 

[Bassman2003]

I think it is better to think in terms of the enzyme activity when mash rests are involved. "Saccharification rests" are from my understanding in-between beta and alpha rests mainly used in single infusion mash regimes. In this scenario, 148F-152F would be the most used temperatures for a single rest.

Mash schedules are about what you want to accomplish. Skewing towards Beta or Alpha determines the fermentability of your finished wort. So a single step at 158F would pretty much skip over beta which would leave a lot of sugars left unconverted. You could call this "more body" but it really will decrease the attenuation of the final beer.

Step mashing is an attempt to hit all of the major temperatures to create a well rounded wort.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Right now, the machine is set for 144/158/170, 30/30/15. Then after I make the wort, I have to deal with my second pressure fermentation.

 

[Bassman2003]

Should be a winner.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I started ordering Torpedo kegs for fermentation 14 days ago, and the first one arrived last night. That supply chain is some chain.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Google hochkurz mash, that's what you want to do. 30 minutes at 62c followed by 30 minutes at 72c plus short mashout at 77c

Definitely, re: Hoch-Kurz mashing.

Yes, definitely yes.

I now do it on all my beers, not just lagers

Now that's an idea...

 

[Miraculix]

Yes, definitely yes.


Now that's an idea...

I also do it with almost every beer I brew. Works pretty well in all situations.

 

[Brooothru]

I also do it with almost every beer I brew. Works pretty well in all situations.

Since I use an all-in-one system (Braumeister) the mash is fully automated and requires me to only fill it and program it, then do ‘something else’ for an hour or two.

I get everything ready for brewing the night before, then get up an hour earlier the next morning to dough-in. So I finish the brew day at about the same time as I would with a regular 1 hour single temperature mash. No muss, no fuss.

 

[Jack Arandir]

You should be able to get an excellent beer with a single infusion in the 148-154 range. If you find you're disappointed with a thin body, you can build body with a decoction mash and/or step mash. German brewers swear by it, and the results speak for themselves.

As far as crystal malt, I've moved away from crystal altogether in German-style lagers. You don't need it, and the sweetness can detract from the experience. German lagers are meant to be drunk by the liter, not the shot glass.

Crystal malt is excellent for building up an otherwise thin beer such as a session beer. For taxation/economic reasons, English brewers mastered the 3.0-4.5% ABV beers using crystal malt to push up FG and bulk up body. This may be controversial, but my thumbrule is crystal in anything under 4.5%, generally not in anything above except in specific cases.

Good luck!

 

[Brooothru]

You should be able to get an excellent beer with a single infusion in the 148-154 range. If you find you're disappointed with a thin body, you can build body with a decoction mash and/or step mash. German brewers swear by it, and the results speak for themselves.

As far as crystal malt, I've moved away from crystal altogether in German-style lagers. You don't need it, and the sweetness can detract from the experience. German lagers are meant to be drunk by the liter, not the shot glass.

Crystal malt is excellent for building up an otherwise thin beer such as a session beer. For taxation/economic reasons, English brewers mastered the 3.0-4.5% ABV beers using crystal malt to push up FG and bulk up body. This may be controversial, but my thumbrule is crystal in anything under 4.5%, generally not in anything above except in specific cases.

Good luck!

Agree totally. The only use I have for crystal malts these days would be American Pale Ales and American IPAs. Even British beers I will brew with adjuncts such as Lyle's syrup or an occasional CaraRed in Irish ales. Virtually everything else, especially German lagers (and also Kolsch and Alt) as well as all other Continental lagers receive only traditional base malts with lesser amounts of Munich or Vienna malts.

Occasionally I might play with times and temperatures for Alpha and Beta amylase rests, depending on whether I wish to enhance fermentability or body, still doughing in @ 60C and mashing out @ 76C. I seldom do single infusion mashes since my equipment does all the hard work for me. Likewise I avoid the complexity of detoction mashes since my beers present sufficient maltiness as is. If I feel the need for greater maltiness, I use the standard "cheat" of a small addition of melanoidin malt to the grist bill, sacrificing authenticity for convenience.

But my "every-day, go-to" mash profile is the modified Hoch-Kurz step mash I mentioned earlier. Overall it gives me reliable and repeatedly consistent results for both fermentability and mouthfeel. It must be working since my last competition entry (non-BJCP sanctioned, but judged by a panel of professional brewers) won a Blue Ribbon for Czech Lager and took overall Best of Show. Also winning Blue in the same comp were my Helles Maibock and Vienna lager, none of which were detoction mashes. Were any of them equal to the Paulaner or Weihenstephaner export beers in my beer fridge? Of course not, but they are more than adequate stand-ins for everyday enjoyment!

 

[Yesfan]

I got a few (many) questions about Hock-Kurz mashing, but don't want to booger up this thread. So, I'll start a new topic.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

It's not really German-style, but all the information is appreciated.

 

[Dland]

I've brewed a few batches with 100% Dingleman's pilsner, it makes for some tasty beer. What I generally do is mash in at 150F, let it sit for 50-60 minutes, vorlauf (recirculate) 10 minutes and sparge. At rate of 20#s grain for 10-11 gallon batch, it makes for a full and flavorful lager despite being all pilsner malt. Works down to around 1.010 with a 6+%ABV.

 

[kevin58]

I would try a Hochkurz mash for a Czech pilsner. 144° 30+ minutes and 160° for another 30+ minutes then mashout at 170°. However a Brulosophy exbeeriment did a side by side test making a Helles with one getting a single infusion mash and the other using the Hochkurz mash schedule. Out of 26 taste testers only 7 could distinguish between the two. I still do the Hochkurz method just because I like doing it even though it might not make any difference at all.

 

[SanPancho]

Agree totally. The only use I have for crystal malts these days would be American Pale Ales and American IPAs. Even British beers I will brew with adjuncts such as Lyle's syrup or an occasional CaraRed in Irish ales. Virtually everything else, especially German lagers (and also Kolsch and Alt) as well as all other Continental lagers receive only traditional base malts with lesser amounts of Munich or Vienna malts.

Occasionally I might play with times and temperatures for Alpha and Beta amylase rests, depending on whether I wish to enhance fermentability or body, still doughing in @ 60C and mashing out @ 76C. I seldom do single infusion mashes since my equipment does all the hard work for me. Likewise I avoid the complexity of detoction mashes since my beers present sufficient maltiness as is. If I feel the need for greater maltiness, I use the standard "cheat" of a small addition of melanoidin malt to the grist bill, sacrificing authenticity for convenience.

But my "every-day, go-to" mash profile is the modified Hoch-Kurz step mash I mentioned earlier. Overall it gives me reliable and repeatedly consistent results for both fermentability and mouthfeel. It must be working since my last competition entry (non-BJCP sanctioned, but judged by a panel of professional brewers) won a Blue Ribbon for Czech Lager and took overall Best of Show. Also winning Blue in the same comp were my Helles Maibock and Vienna lager, none of which were detoction mashes. Were any of them equal to the Paulaner or Weihenstephaner export beers in my beer fridge? Of course not, but they are more than adequate stand-ins for everyday enjoyment!

if you had to give a TL;DR/ BLUF answer- the reason you stick with hochkurz?

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

That's almost exactly what I did, as described above.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Out of 26 taste testers only 7 could distinguish between the two. I still do the Hochkurz method just because I like doing it even though it might not make any difference at all.

if you had to give a TL;DR/ BLUF answer- the reason you stick with hochkurz?

Not Broothru and I'm interested to hear what they have to say too. Here's how I feel about why I do it, though. I think for some subtle techniques experiments like this aren't necessarily the best way to determine if there is a difference. Tasters come in blind. In some ways that's great and in other ways it's not. They are unbiased but they are also inexperienced. Potentially as a taster. Definitely in terms of familiarity with the beer. Trying to pick out a subtle difference in a scenario like that could be pretty hard.

Then there's also the potential variance across brewhouses and palates. Maybe it has more of an effect for some than for others based on either two variables, or both. I have definitely noticed a difference when I did it and I like that difference. Also, it's not much harder for me to do at all and brewing doesn't feel like work so an extra few minutes is no big deal. It's an easy way for me to make an impact that I notice. If it's the placebo effect then those extra few minutes are worth tricking my mind into enjoying the beer more. I could accept that.

 

[Brooothru]

if you had to give a TL;DR/ BLUF answer- the reason you stick with hochkurz?

To paraphrase Sir Edmund Hilary, "Because I can."

 

[SanPancho]

To paraphrase Sir Edmund Hilary, "Because I can."

I have no words.

Not Broothru and I'm interested to hear what they have to say too. Here's how I feel about why I do it, though. I think for some subtle techniques experiments like this aren't necessarily the best way to determine if there is a difference. Tasters come in blind. In some ways that's great and in other ways it's not. They are unbiased but they are also inexperienced. Potentially as a taster. Definitely in terms of familiarity with the beer. Trying to pick out a subtle difference in a scenario like that could be pretty hard.

Then there's also the potential variance across brewhouses and palates. Maybe it has more of an effect for some than for others based on either two variables, or both. I have definitely noticed a difference when I did it and I like that difference. Also, it's not much harder for me to do at all and brewing doesn't feel like work so an extra few minutes is no big deal. It's an easy way for me to make an impact that I notice. If it's the placebo effect then those extra few minutes are worth tricking my mind into enjoying the beer more. I could accept that.

Ok, but if you had to summarize( few words, one sentence,etc) , what is the “difference” you refer to? What is it you feel you get in the beer that doesn’t happen with a single temp mash?

 

[Yesfan]

I have no words.

Ok, but if you had to summarize( few words, one sentence,etc) , what is the “difference” you refer to? What is it you feel you get in the beer that doesn’t happen with a single temp mash?

Great question.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Ok, but if you had to summarize( few words, one sentence,etc) , what is the “difference” you refer to? What is it you feel you get in the beer that doesn’t happen with a single temp mash?

Great question

Fair question, I see what you mean. To my palate it feels somehow lighter, more malt forward, and drier/cleaner all while still not compromising the body.

One word would be maybe "quenching" or "satisfying" though that second word feels like garbage to me. I would say "German" but that would probably get me some

I'd be curious to see what others that have used it more have to say because I am certainly not the authority on it. Have mostly only used it on my German lagers so far and find it hard to put words to the effect.