mash ph

[vwwvgolf]

hello everyone!

so my next brew day i plan on making my beer better by controlling the mash ph.
ive used the EZ water calculator and entered the numbers from the bottled water i will be using, and my grain bill from the recipe i will be following.
it recons my mash ph will be at 5.92, and from reading i want to aim for 5.2?

can i use lactic acid from the HBS in the right amount to bring it down, without using minerals and salts?

ive tried to figure out what salts ect. i need to use but then it starts saying its nowhere near balanced. ( although it is already balanced more toward biterness and not in the recommend range of sulphate)

just a bit confused at it all still. do i need to bring the sulphates up into range? or will that be how its meant to be as ive followed a recipe?

or am i looking into to much now and the correct amount of lactic acid, as told to me by the calculator, will be enough to change the ph and hopefully improve the beer without using salts ect?

hopefully that makes sense to someone ha

thanks

 

[Banjorium]

Yep you can use a little acid, I know you say you don't want to use salts, but I would say don't worry so much about the water profile and just throw in a pinch of gypsum since it helps the pH in the mash. If you do use acid, add a VERY small amount at a time, you'll be surprised how much a little changes the pH.

 

[Yooper]

Lactic acid works well, but with bringing the pH down that much you may have a flavor issue. It brings a "tart" or sour flavor to the beer when you use too much.

What kind of beer are you making? I'd recommend a more modest 5.4-5.5 mash pH for most kinds, unless you're making a dry stout.

EZ water always estimates my mash pH high, so I've been using bru'n water and brewer's friend (both free) to get a better estimate and those have been working very well.

 

[vwwvgolf]

the acid from my store is at 80% and according to the calculator i only need 11ml.
or i could add 100g of acid malt?

also according to the calculator adding about 2 grams (about a pinch i guess) of gypsum wont bring the ph down much but will also make the beer less balanced and make it more bitter.

 

[vwwvgolf]

im trying a clone of brewdogs punk ipa.
do you think i should aim for around 5.4 then? if so then i only need 6ml. would that be enough to add off flvaor?
the recipe is very fruity, hops are simcoe, chinook, ahtanum, nelson sauvin and 2oz dry hop of nelson so maybe the tartiness may add to it? or iam i thinking to positive there haha

 

[Yooper]

the acid from my store is at 80% and according to the calculator i only need 11ml.
or i could add 100g of acid malt?

also according to the calculator adding about 2 grams (about a pinch i guess) of gypsum wont bring the ph down much but will also make the beer less balanced and make it more bitter.

Adding gypsum is for flavor- it's not for pH control. Without knowing what else you've got in there, and the levels you already have, and what type of beer you are making, we can't really give you any advice on that.

11 ml of lactic acid may very well give you a flavor impact. I can use 5 ml in 5 gallons, and not taste it, but 11 ml is quite a bit, depending on batch size and recipe.

You can use up to about 3% acid malt in your recipe before there is a flavor impact, although you might be able to taste it in very light beers in that amount.

 

[Banjorium]

Adding gypsum is for flavor- it's not for pH control. Without knowing what else you've got in there, and the levels you already have, and what type of beer you are making, we can't really give you any advice on that.

11 ml of lactic acid may very well give you a flavor impact. I can use 5 ml in 5 gallons, and not taste it, but 11 ml is quite a bit, depending on batch size and recipe.

You can use up to about 3% acid malt in your recipe before there is a flavor impact, although you might be able to taste it in very light beers in that amount.

Right, it is primarily used for flavor control but I remember reading (BYO?) that the Calcium ions and Sulfate ions combine and add calcium which aids in acidifying the mash. Either way, I make sure to add a little in my mash if my pH is running a little high and it seems to make a bit of a difference.

 

[vwwvgolf]

its for 5 gallons, so hopefully the 6ml should be safe. i guess it should be okay.
only one way to find out i suppose!

i thought i was getting somewhere and learning, but its just never ending!

 

[ajdelange]

There is a lot of groping in the dark here. We don't know anything about your water nor what kind of beer is being brewed. The article at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/ is for neophytes who wish to undertake water adjustment but to use its guidelines you must know something about the water.

You can, in fact, add acid to mash to correct its pH and should do so for all but dark beers (and sometimes then). The amount to add is best determined by experiment on a small test mash. Spreadsheets and calculators can be used for guidance here but require knowledge of the water properties and something about the individual grains used. Accuracy depends on how well you know the grains properties and this is where the calculators fall down as they are often based on color or even empirical observations. They are good for getting into the ballpark in most cases nevertheless.

Obviously, determining the amount of acid to add on a test mash requires that you have a means to measure pH and know how to use it. That's a new discussion. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ph-meter-calibration-302256/ may be of some help.

 

[vwwvgolf]

yeh i know the water profile. i entered it into the calculator along with the grain bill.
although, i will now only take its measurements as a guide.
i will get some acid and use a bit under what its recommending as to not go to far.
i wasn't doing anything before so anything will be a small improvement as long as i dont go crazy with it.
im going to look into testing and how to do it properly aswell tho.

thanks for the help guys

 

[MindenMan]

One teaspoon is 5 mL, if that helps.

 

[Hopper5000]

I am in agreement with aj, you are also going to need a pH meter so you aren't just shooting in the dark.

 

[rlmiller10]

5 ml seems like a lot. Remember you are only putting it in your mash water. (sparge water may need it as well but different topic) I was doing a light IPA, Maris Otter and a bit of Carapils, last night and in 3.7 gal of mash water I only added 1.9 ml. That was what brun water spreadsheet recommended and a ph strip showed a 5.3 Ph. I have a very neutral water to start with so add 1 gram/gallon gypsum and 1gram/gallon epsom salt before I add the acid.

Brun water has been very accurate for me.

 

[Hopper5000]

Instead of using acid you could trying using german acidulated malt and see if that helps. Using that for 1-3% of your grain bill usually is a good starting point for lighter colored beers. Starting on the lower end is usually best. Have you been having issues with off flavors in your lighter beers like astringency? That would be an issue if your mash pH is on the higher side.

You could use the acid you have to acidify the sparge water.

 

[ajdelange]

... and a ph strip showed a 5.3 Ph.

If a pH strip showed a pH of 5.3 the actual pH was probably around 5.6.

Brun water has been very accurate for me.

If you are using pH strips readings to compare to Bru'n water's predictions then you really have no idea how accurate Bru'n water is. This is not to say that it isn't accurate much of the time but there is no way you could know that using strips.

 

[billybryson54]

Like most everybody here has already stated, be careful when adding acid of any form. Depending on the beer I'm making, I typically use lactic, but sometimes I have to shoot for a higher-than-ideal mash PH because I HAVE had beers that turned out a bit different than I wanted due to too much acid that was needed to drop my PH. That's not to say they turned out bad, just not what I was looking for. Still very drinkable however. I myself use brun water and it works out quite well 99 times out of 100.


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[vwwvgolf]

okay, i think im going to stay clear of the lactic acid then as i dont want to ruin a batch.
i think i will get acid malt and add 2% of my grain bill. seems a bit more natural too.

 

[mabrungard]

okay, i think im going to stay clear of the lactic acid then as i dont want to ruin a batch.
i think i will get acid malt and add 2% of my grain bill. seems a bit more natural too.

I'm hoping that your 2% addition is based on an appropriate evaluation of the water and the grist. With regard to any advantage of acid malt, I'm not sure that it's more natural, since most liquid lactic acid is produced via a natural fermentation. It is a natural product too. My biggest concern with acid malt is its variability in acid content. Using liquid lactic acid of known strength is going to be a more accurate acidification method. You are less likely to ruin a batch with liquid lactic acid than acid malt, as long as you have the ability to measure the dosage accurately.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm hoping that your 2% addition is based on an appropriate evaluation of the water and the grist.

Without doing an error budget I'll guess that uncertainties in other malts' buffering capacities and DI mash pH's contribute more error than uncertainties in the sauermalz's parameters. Experience tells me that Weyermann's rule of thumb (0.1pH/1% w/w sauermalz content) is pretty good. If you use the 2% sauermalz recommendation, which is based on low alkalinity water, in a low alkalinity water situation, you will be fine. Of course I'd prefer that this be verified with a sound pH reading.

With regard to any advantage of acid malt, I'm not sure that it's more natural, since most liquid lactic acid is produced via a natural fermentation. It is a natural product too.

Purified lactic acid is purified lactic acid whether synthetic or produced by fermentation of sucrose, glucose or lactose. The same can be said, of course for ethanol. What we are after when we use sauermalz or sauergut are the additional nuanced flavor components that fermentation of grain or wort produce (again compare to the alcoholic fermentation). While some say they can't taste these (depends on how good the palate is I suppose) remember that sauermalz is just another specialty malt. You don't use it just for the acid. If it's just the acid you want use bottled.

You are less likely to ruin a batch with liquid lactic acid than acid malt, as long as you have the ability to measure the dosage accurately.

I very much doubt it. Just to put this in some perspective consider a mash made up of base malt and a few percent of some dark and light crystal in 4.5 gal water that has a fair amount of calcium hardness which has a mash pH of 5.56. Adding enough sauermalz to deliver 30 mmol of lactic acid would pull that pH down to 5.45. But suppose this particular batch of lactic acid is really double strength and you wind up delivering 60 mmol. Mash pH will be 5.34. Is that enough to ruin the beer? What are the odds that one batch of sauermalz from the same maltster would be twice the strength of another. The answer to this latter question is, of course, easily answered by titrating some sauermalz samples. Kai did two and the difference in buffering was 14%. That's a very small sample size but a long way from a factor of 2.