Mash pH clarification

[sondriven]

Hey guys,

I'm just getting into adjusting my water pH. In Beersmith, my recipe calls for a mash pH of 5.2 Is this pH measured with the grains added? Or is this the pH of the mash water before grains are added?

Thanks,

 

[bajaedition]

with grains added and mixed well with water

adjusting before will result in low reading as the grains will help lower the PH

 

[dmtaylor]

Mix grains and water together, then wait at least 5-10 minutes, then measure.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I wonder why Beersmith shoots for a mash pH target of 5.2? Nigh on all other sourced advice is to target a mash pH of 5.4, with an acceptable range of 5.2 at the low end and 5.6 at the high end.

The pH of your water before grain addition is irrelevant. Your waters alkalinity is highly relevant, and you must know this value.

 

[RM-MN]

Mix grains and water together, then wait at least 5-10 minutes, then measure.

That works if you want to make adjustments.....to the next batch. By 10 minutes a lot of the conversion has already happened so if your pH is off it's too late to correct for this batch. Unless you repeat the same grain bill you won't know for sure what the pH will turn out like.

 

[bajaedition]

I wonder why Beersmith shoots for a mash pH target of 5.2? Nigh on all other sourced advice is to target a mash pH of 5.4, with an acceptable range of 5.2 at the low end and 5.6 at the high end.

The pH of your water before grain addition is irrelevant. Your waters alkalinity is highly relevant, and you must know this value.

I target 5.2 to 5.4, depending on the source either is correct.
I will d\say, with my water profile, slightly hard to medium hard, 5.4 gives me the best conversion

 

[premington]

How does one know what to strike with and anticipate that drop in pH when the sugars are converted? For example, if I add my strike water, which has been set at a pH of 5.4, and the mash drops the pH to 5.1, then perhaps I should set the strike water temperature to 5.6 anticipating the drop in pH to be 5.3 in the mash.

The tricky part I'm confused about is what to set my strike pH at. For my next American Ale, I'm interested in a mash pH of 5.4. How do I get there? Should I set the strike water at 5.6? And what should I set my sparge water pH at?

 

[snowveil]

How does one know what to strike with and anticipate that drop in pH when the sugars are converted? For example, if I add my strike water, which has been set at a pH of 5.4, and the mash drops the pH to 5.1, then perhaps I should set the strike water temperature to 5.6 anticipating the drop in pH to be 5.3 in the mash.

The tricky part I'm confused about is what to set my strike pH at. For my next American Ale, I'm interested in a mash pH of 5.4. How do I get there? Should I set the strike water at 5.6? And what should I set my sparge water pH at?

"Strike water pH" is irrelevant. pH is basically a measure of positive vs negative ions in your water...it's a balance. Knowing the mineral content and Alkalinity of your water is much more important than knowing the water pH. Soft water pH will be easily swayed away from it's existing pH whereas hard water will not.

Really the best way to hit your desired mash pH is to do a test mash and use a reliable and accurate pH meter. Without a pH meter you're completely guessing.

This is an excellent thread to get you pointed in the right direction for basic water adjustments:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

 

[bajaedition]

How does one know what to strike with and anticipate that drop in pH when the sugars are converted? For example, if I add my strike water, which has been set at a pH of 5.4, and the mash drops the pH to 5.1, then perhaps I should set the strike water temperature to 5.6 anticipating the drop in pH to be 5.3 in the mash.

The tricky part I'm confused about is what to set my strike pH at. For my next American Ale, I'm interested in a mash pH of 5.4. How do I get there? Should I set the strike water at 5.6? And what should I set my sparge water pH at?

experience with a certain recipe, and taking very accurate notes

One of the best ways to improve your brewing is to take very accurate notes every time you brew. refer back top them before brewing the same recipe and see where they can help. make new notes of the recipe. each time you will see the beer get better if you use the old notes.

 

[day_trippr]

I wouldn't recommend using BS's pH calculator.
I use Bru'n Water and it's as accurate as the data I input.
I rarely miss mash pH (or sparge water pH) and if I do it's barely by a tenth...

Cheers!

 

[premington]

"Strike water pH" is irrelevant. pH is basically a measure of positive vs negative ions in your water...it's a balance. Knowing the mineral content and Alkalinity of your water is much more important than knowing the water pH. Soft water pH will be easily swayed away from it's existing pH whereas hard water will not.

Really the best way to hit your desired mash pH is to do a test mash and use a reliable and accurate pH meter. Without a pH meter you're completely guessing.

This is an excellent thread to get you pointed in the right direction for basic water adjustments:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

This is very helpful--thank you. I did read this post in the past, but it's always good to read it again. Good information in there.

AJ does recommend a pH of 5.3. John Palmer states in his water book, "Acid additions are generally not needed for mash pH, but sparge acidification may be helpful, depending on the recipe grain bill and sparge water alkalinity." (p. 161) He's also stated that you want to ensure the pH is between 5.2 and 5.6 and it should not exceed 6.0. So it seems some sort of control needs to be in place for water that exceeds 6.0.

My water is local surface water run through a three-stage filter that includes a carbon block and hit with UV. I have the numbers from Ward Labs and the pH is 7.7. Alkalinity is 66 ppm and RA is 41 ppm. I have a pH meter, which I'll use on my first all-grain brew in a few weeks. I've calculated all the additions to balance the ions and set pH at 5.4.

Will the grains drop this 7.7 to somewhere between 5.2 and 5.6 without water adjustments? My understanding was I need to add either some malt-reducing grain (acidulated malt--sauermaltz) or acidify some other way. To compliment the other additions to the water, I planned on a mild lactic acid addition in both the strike water and sparge to maintain a level of 5.4.

Is this the wrong approach?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I have the numbers from Ward Labs and the pH is 7.7. Alkalinity is 66 ppm and RA is 41 ppm.

Again, the pH is irrelevant. Your alkalinity is moderate to low, which is good.

Will the grains drop this 7.7 to somewhere between 5.2 and 5.6 without water adjustments? My understanding was I need to add either some malt-reducing grain (acidulated malt--sauermaltz) or acidify some other way. to compliment the other additions to the water, I planned on a mild lactic acid addition in both the strike water and sparge to maintain a level of 5.4.

Is this the wrong approach?

With your water, the grains for some brews will drop the pH into the desired range without acid (it will depend what grains you are using though; you'll still need acid for something like a pilsner). For dark beers you'll need something to raise the pH. You could, and probably should, add a tiny amount of lactic to the sparge water.
Your options when dealing with your water are:
1. Follow the instructions in the sticky - they are simple and don't require calculating pH's and ion concentrations.
2. Use a water calculator (I use Bru'n water) - this is the option most brewers use once they want to really nail the water side of things.
3. Do the calculations yourself. Look back over posts from AJ DeLange - he has posted all the information you need. Most people find the maths side a bit daunting though.

 

[premington]

Again, the pH is irrelevant. Your alkalinity is moderate to low, which is good.



With your water, the grains for some brews will drop the pH into the desired range without acid (it will depend what grains you are using though; you'll still need acid for something like a pilsner). For dark beers you'll need something to raise the pH. You could, and probably should, add a tiny amount of lactic to the sparge water.
Your options when dealing with your water are:
1. Follow the instructions in the sticky - they are simple and don't require calculating pH's and ion concentrations.
2. Use a water calculator (I use Bru'n water) - this is the option most brewers use once they want to really nail the water side of things.
3. Do the calculations yourself. Look back over posts from AJ DeLange - he has posted all the information you need. Most people find the maths side a bit daunting though.

Thank you for the reply. I use both Bru'n Water and BeerSmith. They are my guide in ionic balance and constructing additions. I've also been consulting various resources, with a lot of focus on Palmer's online lectures, brews, and his water book.

I'm trying to wrap my head around accepting the pH is irrelevant. Be patient with me, as I'm learning... I'm just trying to understand the big picture of information I'm digesting from many sources, all of which emphasize the importance of a proper mash pH level.

My confusion is coming from my inability to find an answer to how pH changes from strike water to and through the entire mash. Somehow I need to know what to set my strike water pH to ensure a mash pH of ~5.4.

Or is it more appropriate to just get my ion concentrations set properly and forget about the pH.

My intent was to use my filtered water source, not dilute.

This is an American Ale, so my grains are:

 

[Sadu]

I'm trying to wrap my head around accepting the pH is irrelevant. Be patient with me, as I'm learning... I'm just trying to understand the big picture of information I'm digesting from many sources, all of which emphasize the importance of a proper mash pH level.

The reason for this, as I understand it (and I'm not a scientist so bear with me) is that pH is not a linear scale.

Think of it like playing RPG computer games where your character go from level 1 to level 2 in the first 10 mins, and then going to level 3 takes a bit longer, but you might get to level 5 in an evening of gaming. But later on to go from level 19 to level 20 takes all weekend. Ie, the amount of experience points / time to go to the next level increases each time. So whether your character starts on level 1 or level 4 doesn't make a lot of difference and both characters will reach level 20 at about the same time.

It's the same with pH. Whether you are starting at pH 8 or pH 7.3 doesn't matter much in the scheme of things because it only takes a tiny amount of acid adjustment to make up that difference.

What does matter is the alkalinity which is the amount of acid required to initiate a drop in pH.

What I would recommend is calculating your mash acid additions as best you can via Brunwater, then measure the pH after 20 mins at room temperature. If it's different to what Brunwater says and you trust the reading is accurate then make adjustments for next time. I don't bother taking readings anymore since Brunwater gets me close enough.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I'm trying to wrap my head around accepting the pH is irrelevant.

Think about having a liter of 100% pure water with nothing else dissolved in it....If you add 4 grams of Sodium hydroxide, the pH of the solution will be 13, if you instead add 40 grams of Sodium hydroxide, the pH will only reach 14. The concentration of the base (molarity) changes a lot, but the pH doesn't change much - it mostly measures the 'completeness' of supply of OH- ions (this is a simplification, but basically that's how it works). Clearly it would take less acid to neutralise the 4 grams of Sodium hydroxide than it would the 40 grams. The same with brewing water - the actual pH doesn't matter, it's the concentration of ions (bicarbonate) that need to be neutralised/acidified that matters.

Somehow I need to know what to set my strike water pH to ensure a mash pH of ~5.4.

That will only work if you brew the same beer repeatedly and take measurements. It's not the most effective way.

My confusion is coming from my inability to find an answer to how pH changes from strike water to and through the entire mash.

To keep it simple, grain is acidic. Roasted and crystal malts are far more acidic than base malts. Adding pale malt to pure water will give a pH of (depending on the particular batch) about 5.8 to 6.0. Calcium and Magnesium act as mild acids in the mash pH range, Carbonate/Bicarbonate acts as a base.

 

[premington]

Again, the pH is irrelevant. Your alkalinity is moderate to low, which is good.

With your water, the grains for some brews will drop the pH into the desired range without acid (it will depend what grains you are using though; you'll still need acid for something like a pilsner). For dark beers you'll need something to raise the pH. You could, and probably should, add a tiny amount of lactic to the sparge water.
Your options when dealing with your water are:


1. Follow the instructions in the sticky - they are simple and don't require calculating pH's and ion concentrations.
2. Use a water calculator (I use Bru'n water) - this is the option most brewers use once they want to really nail the water side of things.
3. Do the calculations yourself. Look back over posts from AJ DeLange - he has posted all the information you need. Most people find the maths side a bit daunting though.

Thanks for the reply. I use both Bru'n Water and BeerSmith. They're my guides in ionic balance and water adjustments. I've also been consulting various resources, with a lot of focus on Palmer's online lectures, brews, and his water book.

I'm trying to wrap my head around accepting the pH is irrelevant. Be patient with me, as I'm learning... I'm just trying to understand the big picture of information I'm digesting from many sources, all of which emphasize the importance of a proper mash pH level.

My confusion is coming from an inability to find an answer to how pH changes from strike water to and through the entire mash. I have no understand how much a mash will drop the pH. I thought you don't want a strike water pH of over ~6.0 to ever come in contact with the grain. Somehow I need to know what to set my strike water pH to ensure a mash pH of ~5.4. I guess my question is, what is "5.4". If I understand you correctly, it's the mash pH, not the water. And the water, regardless of its pH at dough-in, will result in a proper mash pH?

If pH is irrelevant in terms of strike water adjustment, then is it more appropriate to just get my ion concentrations set properly and forget about the pH?

My intent was to use my filtered water source, not dilute.

This is an American Ale (6 gallons in primary), so my grain bill contains:

- 8 lbs. of 2 row
- 1 1/2 lbs. Vienna malt
- 1 lb. Crystal 20
- 1 lb. of rice
- 1/2 lb. of wheat

Great to have this forum here. I appreciate the advice. It helps me understand things more completely. I, like everyone here, just want to make an awesome beer to share with family and friends.

 

[premington]

Sorry, something went wrong. My last message was posted to the forum before I was done writing it. Gnomebrewer and Sadu: you both crafted your reply while I was finalizing the post, which is why it appears here twice. Oyyyy!

Your replies give me more to chew on. Thanks for explaining it.

 

[premington]

What I would recommend is calculating your mash acid additions as best you can via Brunwater, then measure the pH after 20 mins at room temperature. If it's different to what Brunwater says and you trust the reading is accurate then make adjustments for next time. I don't bother taking readings anymore since Brunwater gets me close enough.

Okay... The important thing I need to consider is, whatever approach I take, it's not gonna destroy the beer. Bru'n Water is what I rely on for water adjustments, and that's directing me to acidification in both strike water and sparge water to achieve 5.4. Perhaps I should go with whatever it suggests and, as you said, just take really good notes, then make adjustments on the next batch.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Okay... The important thing I need to consider is, whatever approach I take, it's not gonna destroy the beer. Bru'n Water is what I rely on for water adjustments, and that's directing me to acidification in both strike water and sparge water to achieve 5.4. Perhaps I should go with whatever it suggests and, as you said, just take really good notes, then make adjustments on the next batch.

Maybe start a new thread, post your recipe and water profile to get suggestions for how to brew with it - it can help to have other look at your water calculations.

 

[Sadu]

Okay... The important thing I need to consider is, whatever approach I take, it's not gonna destroy the beer. Bru'n Water is what I rely on for water adjustments, and that's directing me to acidification in both strike water and sparge water to achieve 5.4. Perhaps I should go with whatever it suggests and, as you said, just take really good notes, then make adjustments on the next batch.

The core problem that everyone has is that it takes 10-20 mins for the mash pH to stabilise so you can take a reading. By the time you have that reading the bulk of the conversion is done and it's too late to make meaningful pH adjustments for this batch.

So either you do a small test mash before doing your main brew, or you estimate as best you can, measure the pH and take notes for the next batch.

Way I see it, if you do your estimates properly using the spreadsheets you will get way closer than if you did nothing, and that is going to get you better beer. After a few batches and a bit of experience you should be able to hit your target within a margin of 0.1 pH each time. If you are brewing the same recipe over again you might be able to get closer than that even.

 

[premington]

Thanks Gnomebrewer for the idea... I'll check what forum topic area would be appropriate and post details. I agree, getting other's opinions can only help.

Sadu: That's an excellent point I'm learning, that there's really no reliable way to know what your final mash pH is until it's too late to change it. With that in mind, all I can do is make my best calculated guestimate, document everything, and use that information for future brews.

 

[snowveil]

Thanks for the reply. I use both Bru'n Water and BeerSmith. They're my guides in ionic balance and water adjustments. I've also been consulting various resources, with a lot of focus on Palmer's online lectures, brews, and his water book.

I'm trying to wrap my head around accepting the pH is irrelevant. Be patient with me, as I'm learning... I'm just trying to understand the big picture of information I'm digesting from many sources, all of which emphasize the importance of a proper mash pH level.

My confusion is coming from an inability to find an answer to how pH changes from strike water to and through the entire mash. I have no understand how much a mash will drop the pH. I thought you don't want a strike water pH of over ~6.0 to ever come in contact with the grain. Somehow I need to know what to set my strike water pH to ensure a mash pH of ~5.4. I guess my question is, what is "5.4". If I understand you correctly, it's the mash pH, not the water. And the water, regardless of its pH at dough-in, will result in a proper mash pH?

Do you have a pH meter you can use to measure the pH of your mash? Unless you are *actually* measuring it, I wouldn't put all of my stock in online calculators. It's like trusting the mash temperature calculators without using a thermometer to actually measure your mash temperature.

Water with a low RA (which you have) will tend to settle, in my experience, to around 5.6-5.8 pH with a 100% base grain grist (that is, no crystal, roast, etc). This is why the 2% sauermalz recommendation is there...it will drop you into a desireable range. Crystal/Caramel malts, roasted malts, etc, will all lower your mash pH as well...However, unless you're actually measuring this mash pH you are really shooting in the dark. Yes, calculators will give you a general idea but variations in the natural, agricultural product we're working with, as well as variations between maltsters, will not be accounted for (and really, *can't* be accounted for) in the brewing software.

If pH is irrelevant in terms of strike water adjustment, then is it more appropriate to just get my ion concentrations set properly and forget about the pH?

No. The pH of the water going into the mash is irrelevant. The pH that the mash settles at, however, is exactly WHY you make adjustments. Personally, I wouldn't focus on any of this unless you're actually measuring your pH. Start with the water chemistry primer, and if the beer turns out great I wouldn't worry about it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Most professional brewers nowadays will tell you that any water adjustments they're making are primarily to get the mash pH right. Certain styles will be loaded up with chloride or sulfates for flavor...but they're not going to make those adjustments unless the mash pH is correct.

I also wouldn't worry about sparge water acidification until, again, you are measuring it. Conduct a normal mash, and when you're sparging, take a small sample of the wort being collected into the kettle and measure the pH with a reliable meter. If the pH of the WORT (not sparge water itself) is in danger of climbing above 5.8, then you may need to consider acidifying the sparge water. In my experience this has not been necessary. YMMV, but don't just make adjustments because a spreadsheet told you to.

 

[premington]

Hi Snowveil... Thanks for sharing all that. I learn things from replies like this.

I have a pH meter and plan on using it at key times during the mash process. Without it, as you said, I'll have no real idea of what's going on. I planned on using Bru'n Water's numbers as a guide, but not a law. Depending what numbers I get, that'll help me make decisions about adjustments at sparge. So your point's well taken.

 

[sondriven]

Wow, such great information. I just wanted to thank you all for posting and sharing. It's seriously appreciated!

 

[eric19312]

I do suggest the small test batch mash if you are this into thinking about your water chemistry. It is a fun pre-brewday exercise. You can scale your mash 1/100 of a batch, grind the grain in a coffee grinder and mix with strike water in a pot. Doesnt matter if you hit the exact mash temp or hold it long, you are just looking for ph at 10 min. Make sure you cool the ph sample to room temp before measuring.

 

[Ki-ri-n]

Another thing to keep in mind...I see your base malt is two-row.

If it's Rahr Two-row, you'll probably have to raise the SRM in the spreadsheet for Bru'n Water to about 5 rather than 2 (it's mentioned in the spreadsheet notes but it's possible to miss it). It took me a while to get the spreadsheet to coincide with my measured results. It wasn't until I raised the SRM for the two-row before my numbers came in line with the spreadsheet. Don't always assume that your variance between what you have measured & a water calculator is "fixed" by solely changing acidity. Double and triple check that what you are entering is correct. Don't be discouraged if you are way off the first couple of times. As long as you can account for the changes you make to improve your desired outcome, you're on the right track.

It took me 5 brews before I got my predicted Ph to match my actual Ph. And so far, I've hit just once. Still have yet to see how repeatable I have become. The only thing I changed in Bru'n water was the SRM of the Rahr Two-row I use (that's the base malt I mostly use). I tired "offsetting" my Ph "error" by other means and it never got me any closer to my actual mash Ph.

 

[ajdelange]

A lot of the confusion in this thread stems from statements that the pH of the strike water is irrelevant. It most certainly is not irrelevant for this is the pH at which the water's alkalinity is 0 WRT mash pH. Every alkalinity is WRT to some pH. The pH associated with the alkalinity in your water report is 4.5 (if the lab uses the ISO standard method of measuring alkalinity) and, knowing this we don't care so much about the water sample pH because whatever it is within the normal range of potable waters it won't have much influence on the amount of acid we need to cancel the alkalinity to mash pH: about 90% of the alkalinity. But if sample pH is out of the normal range or we want a complete characterization of the water we do care about the sample pH.

Each mash has a composite titration curve which is a plot of mEq acid added on the vertical axis vs pH on the horizontal axis. This curve is monotonicaly decreasing. The more acid you add the lower the pH. With 0 acid added the pH is likely to be higher than desired at least for pale beers. I can't believe Palmer says most beers don't require acid. Kunze in his book points out that most do. As you add acid the pH marches up the curve to lower pH value. At some point along the curve you will have added enough acid to bring the pH of the water alone to the desired mash pH. On the titration curve of the water alone you would be at the desired pH but on the composite curve you would be at a higher pH because of grain alkalinity. More acid would be required to get far enough to the left on the composite curve.

 

[premington]

Another thing to keep in mind...I see your base malt is two-row.

If it's Rahr Two-row, you'll probably have to raise the SRM in the spreadsheet for Bru'n Water to about 5 rather than 2 (it's mentioned in the spreadsheet notes but it's possible to miss it). It took me a while to get the spreadsheet to coincide with my measured results. It wasn't until I raised the SRM for the two-row before my numbers came in line with the spreadsheet. Don't always assume that your variance between what you have measured & a water calculator is "fixed" by solely changing acidity. Double and triple check that what you are entering is correct. Don't be discouraged if you are way off the first couple of times. As long as you can account for the changes you make to improve your desired outcome, you're on the right track.

It took me 5 brews before I got my predicted Ph to match my actual Ph. And so far, I've hit just once. Still have yet to see how repeatable I have become. The only thing I changed in Bru'n water was the SRM of the Rahr Two-row I use (that's the base malt I mostly use). I tired "offsetting" my Ph "error" by other means and it never got me any closer to my actual mash Ph.

Nice point... I didn't know that about Rahr 2-row SRM. That's very helpful--thank you. I was, in fact, looking at Rahr. Also nice to read your shared experience. As long as I'm within reasonable range of key numbers, I'll be happy. I'm prepared for mistakes though, but not planning on them. Being my "virginal" all-grain brew, I think it'll be a fun brewing experience, regardless of the outcome. In many ways, memorable.

Do you remember your first all-grain brew?

 

[premington]

I do suggest the small test batch mash if you are this into thinking about your water chemistry. It is a fun pre-brewday exercise. You can scale your mash 1/100 of a batch, grind the grain in a coffee grinder and mix with strike water in a pot. Doesnt matter if you hit the exact mash temp or hold it long, you are just looking for ph at 10 min. Make sure you cool the ph sample to room temp before measuring.

Yeah, I'm planning to do this. I haven't purchased the grains yet, but when I do, I'll overbuy and plan on doing a test mash to see what happens.

When I do a test mash, do I include the rice and wheat? Or would I only use the malts? I've never actually done a test mash before.

 

[rayg]

The only people who have to worry about mash pH are those people who have some bizarrely alkaline water and don't want to spend the money on distilled water, and major breweries that depend on those last percents of conversion for their profit margin. For the Homebrewer, temperature and rate at which it is raised/lowered will have a much greater effect on conversion and fermentable extract. Any non-ideal pH can be compensated by a change in temperature regime, again, assuming the pH is not extreme.

Ray

 

[bajaedition]

The only people who have to worry about mash pH are those people who have some bizarrely alkaline water and don't want to spend the money on distilled water, and major breweries that depend on those last percents of conversion for their profit margin. For the Homebrewer, temperature and rate at which it is raised/lowered will have a much greater effect on conversion and fermentable extract. Any non-ideal pH can be compensated by a change in temperature regime, again, assuming the pH is not extreme.

Ray

that is what is so cool about this hobby, those who do, and those who do not, we all raise to the level we want. After all it is the person brewing the beer that has to drink it.

 

[ajdelange]

Any non-ideal pH can be compensated by a change in temperature regime, again, assuming the pH is not extreme.
Ray

Not true. Don't believe it. pH has as profound an effect on beer flavor, perhaps more than temperature, but one cannot correct a pH error by varying temperature. At the same time it does little good to control pH precisely if one has sloppy temperature control.

 

[Sadu]

that is what is so cool about this hobby, those who do, and those who do not, we all raise to the level we want. After all it is the person brewing the beer that has to drink it.

I agree. You can start out, and not worry about all this water stuff and still get pretty great beer.

Then if/when you do decide to go into the water chemistry rabbit hole there's a whole new world of awesomeness waiting for you.

Personally I think the extra effort in calculating the mash acidification etc is well worth the effort.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Not true. Don't believe it. pH has as profound an effect on beer flavor, perhaps more than temperature, but one cannot correct a pH error by varying temperature. At the same time it does little good to control pH precisely if one has sloppy temperature control.

Across the typically quoted ideal mash pH spectrum of 5.2 to 5.6 pH, what flavor impact changes might the two extremes of the range bring with them? If for instance I'm trying to mellow out my hops flavor impact, or alternately sharpen it up, can I achieve that by mash pH manipulation?

 

[ajdelange]

The description usually given (and is not one that I came up with) by people who start controlling mash pH is something like 'all the flavors become brighter' and that was certainly what I experienced when I started doing it. I had been monitoring mash pH for years but never doing anything about it because sauermalz was not on the LHBS shelves. When it became available and I started using it it was as if someone had turned on the lights.

I think the general opinion is that above 6 the beers' flavors are muddy, flat, uninspiring, that as you drop below 6 they become brighter and as you go below say 5.2 they are too bright, too sharp but this is not a region I have ever explored.

I too would be interested in other brewers' answer to this question.

 

[premington]

I agree. You can start out, and not worry about all this water stuff and still get pretty great beer.

Then if/when you do decide to go into the water chemistry rabbit hole there's a whole new world of awesomeness waiting for you.

Personally I think the extra effort in calculating the mash acidification etc is well worth the effort.

Absolutely agree with you!

I like nuts and bolts. Previously, I made wine. Fermenting grapes, in comparison, seems so simple to that of brewing beer. I find myself willfully diving head first into different rabbit holes with this hobby. There's so much to learn and explore, and with the ability to create your own recipe, it opens up an enormous amount of creativity. I find it masochistically addicting!

The other thing I was quite surprised to find is how large the homebrew community is. It's vibrant and, so far, my experience has been a great one. People are generally very friendly and quite willing to share and help in the learning process.

But I agree with you... If you want to keep this hobby simple, you can do so and get excellent results. If you want to dissect the complexities, you can do that too. If you do it right, you can make a great beer!

 

[premington]

The description usually given (and is not one that I came up with) by people who start controlling mash pH is something like 'all the flavors become brighter' and that was certainly what I experienced when I started doing it. I had been monitoring mash pH for years but never doing anything about it because sauermalz was not on the LHBS shelves. When it became available and I started using it it was as if someone had turned on the lights.

I think the general opinion is that above 6 the beers' flavors are muddy, flat, uninspiring, that as you drop below 6 they become brighter and as you go below say 5.2 they are too bright, too sharp but this is not a region I have ever explored.

I too would be interested in other brewers' answer to this question.

I like to equate it to the effect of MSG on Chinese food (my wife's Chinese, so I have a lot of experience with this one!). Without MSG, the food flavor is there, but it's toned down and sometimes a bit flat tasting. With MSG, the flavor pops... I like to say it gets more fluorescent.

While other's here are assisting me in learning about mash pH and water manipulation, from what I'm learning, when you hit the pH and ion concentrations proper for your style beer, it's like adding MSG. The flavors present and express themselves more vibrantly.

 

[eric19312]

Yeah, I'm planning to do this. I haven't purchased the grains yet, but when I do, I'll overbuy and plan on doing a test mash to see what happens.

When I do a test mash, do I include the rice and wheat? Or would I only use the malts? I've never actually done a test mash before.

- 8 lbs. of 2 row
- 1 1/2 lbs. Vienna malt
- 1 lb. Crystal 20
- 1 lb. of rice
- 1/2 lb. of wheat

Honestly with this grain bill unless you have bizarre water I think you will be fine. I believe people run into issues dealing with malt bills that are something like 100% pilsner malt.

Might as well just do the brew, using salt additions recommended by bru'n water. Measure pH at 10-15 min into the mash. Write that value in your brew notes and consider adjusting when you rebrew.

If you really want to play with that pH meter on non-brew day (been there, done that), then yes to do the test right I'd want to include the adjuncts as well as other grains unless for example the rice is syrup you are adding to the kettle.

 

[premington]

- 8 lbs. of 2 row
- 1 1/2 lbs. Vienna malt
- 1 lb. Crystal 20
- 1 lb. of rice
- 1/2 lb. of wheat

Honestly with this grain bill unless you have bizarre water I think you will be fine. I believe people run into issues dealing with malt bills that are something like 100% pilsner malt.

Might as well just do the brew, using salt additions recommended by bru'n water. Measure pH at 10-15 min into the mash. Write that value in your brew notes and consider adjusting when you rebrew.

If you really want to play with that pH meter on non-brew day (been there, done that), then yes to do the test right I'd want to include the adjuncts as well as other grains unless for example the rice is syrup you are adding to the kettle.

Hi Eric,

Yeah, I as toying with whether I should add the adjuncts. I've spec'ed out the 1/100th test mash as containing:

Water: 5.12 oz
2-row: 35.84 g
Crystal 20L: 4.48 g
Vienna: 6.72 g

But do I add the FLAKED rice and FLAKED wheat?

I'd adjust the water at different pH levels. I'll probably, for fun, use my raw filtered water (7.7 pH), then other samples at different levels. Perhaps 6.5, 6.0, 5.5, etc. A pH measurement would be taken at 20 minutes. I suppose I can plot the result. I'm curious to see how this all plays out.

 

[eric19312]

Hi Eric,

Yeah, I as toying with whether I should add the adjuncts. I've spec'ed out the 1/100th test mash as containing:

Water: 5.12 oz
2-row: 35.84 g
Crystal 20L: 4.48 g
Vienna: 6.72 g

But do I add the FLAKED rice and FLAKED wheat?

I'd adjust the water at different pH levels. I'll probably, for fun, use my raw filtered water (7.7 pH), then other samples at different levels. Perhaps 6.5, 6.0, 5.5, etc. A pH measurement would be taken at 20 minutes. I suppose I can plot the result. I'm curious to see how this all plays out.

haha sounds fun. in for a penny in for a pound...add the flaked adjuncts they could make a difference.

ph of your water is really not the issue. it is ph of the mash which includes the water, grist and brewing salts (and acid if using). even if your water ph changes some day to day I don't think that matters, most of the impact comes from the grist. Would be good to model it in Bru'n water or brewers friend first, then see how close the test results come to the predicted results.