Mash enzyme question w descending mash temp

[hopjuice_71]

According the Google machine it is alpha-galactosidase whatever that is.

I have heard of people using Beano and purportedly getting a more fermentable wort. I call BS on that. It is indeed alpha-galactosidase. It acts on complex polysaccharides, such as galactomannans, found in things like, well, beans, among other plant foods. Ingesting the enzyme makes the polysaccharide(s) more accessible to "good" bacteria in our gut microbiota thus reducing the likelihood certain bacteria in the microbiota will convert it to methane and hydrogen gas (as byproducts). Polysaccharides that Beano would be active on are in barley, but they are not there in abundance and certainly not in amounts that would profoundly affect anything brewing related.

 

[VikeMan]

View attachment 774620

AFAIK, that chart was drawn by Jake McWhirter at For the Love of God and Enjoyment of Beer

I have yet to see any explanation of what the numbers actually mean. Like, what does 100% "Enzyme Activity in a 1 Hour Mash" mean? What does 50% mean?

 

[bracconiere]

AFAIK, that chart was drawn by Jake McWhirter at For the Love of God and Enjoyment of Beer

I have yet to see any explanation of what the numbers actually mean. Like, what does 100% "Enzyme Activity in a 1 Hour Mash" mean? What does 50% mean?

i assumed it was how much was denatured? at least the down curve....and the up curve would be how fast the molecules are moving?

edit: i mean i read it as at 170f, beta has been totally denatured after an hour at that temp? like i said i want to use log on the calc to figure it differently....

 

[dmtaylor]

i saw it, and then the forum...

i'm banned from brew science...i was going to post this and try and work on my logarythmic charting skill to see if i could convert all the into percentages for you dland. but i still strugle with a calculator and trig...

View attachment 774620

so at a 155f mash for an hour, you'd still have 30% beta activity left i think.. and as far i know the reason there IS a brewers window is you have to use the alpha to soften the starches up for the 'beta enzyme'?

if i was doin what i think is being proposed...i'd do a step at 149f, then ramp up to 155f? i'd 'guess' slowly cooling with only 30% activity left...

The graphic above is only an approximation for illustrative purposes and not hard science.

 

[bracconiere]

The graphic above is only an approximation for illustrative purposes and not hard science.

isn't brewing in gneneral....? i mean i've seen some chemitry routes that are more scientific ways of making ethanol in a lab?

 

[VikeMan]

i assumed it was how much was denatured? at least the down curve....and the up curve would be how fast the molecules are moving?

A bell curve that means one thing to the left of the top and another thing to the right would be a very unique bell curve, I think. And if the denaturing part were true, the chart would say that at 67C, Beta Amylase would be 50% denatured in an hour. In reality, there would be very little Beta Amylase left.

 

[bracconiere]

A bell curve that means one thing to the left of the top and another thing to the right would be a very unique bell curve, I think. And if the denaturing part were true, the chart says that at 67C, Beta MAylase would be 50% denatured in an hour. In reality, there would be very little Beta Amylase left.

maybe the three sides need to break a fourth wall and have a time side also? instead of a general '1 hour'....

 

[hopjuice_71]

AFAIK, that chart was drawn by Jake McWhirter at For the Love of God and Enjoyment of Beer

I have yet to see any explanation of what the numbers actually mean. Like, what does 100% "Enzyme Activity in a 1 Hour Mash" mean? What does 50% mean?

It is not an usual type of plot in enzyme studies - each enzyme activity curve has been normalized to the condition under which the highest activity has been observed in the experiment (in this case mash). 50% would obviously be 50% of the maximum observed activity, so the entire curve is relative to itself and very specific those particular mash conditions. Changes in activity could be due to anything, including denaturation.

Edit: Jeez, I respond too slow....

 

[dmtaylor]

isn't brewing in gneneral....? i mean i've seen some chemitry routes that are more scientific ways of making ethanol in a lab?

Reality is reality. Graphics like this are not reality, but helpful to some. And maybe not helpful if you want specific details.

 

[bracconiere]

And maybe not helpful if you want specific details.

and then get taken by reasearchgate and reading $100 papers?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Overall I find it much easier to do single infusion, and I'm willing to bet a 6-pack that no one can taste a difference, and the FGs would be within a point of one another anyway, as long as the total mash TIMES are the same... also assuming all reasonable temperatures in standard ranges with enzymes doing what we expect them to do, not doing something wonky where we kill off the beta too early.

That is about where I am. If I had one of the electric recirculating systems I would give step mashing a try. But for now I am very happy with the quality of my beers and I feel like I have enough control over mash temps and attenuation with single infusion mashing and wrapping my kettle in a sleeping bag.

Since then I have always shot for 149.

152F is my generic mash target. I guess I like to lean on the side of a little less attenuation and a little less alcohol. I do vary my mash temps, but I am generally in the camp that mash temps don't have a huge impact on the overall character of the final product.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

As a visual learner, I find graphics like this one help me understand the basic idea of a process.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

The charts could be helpful, but I believe mash pH will have an effect on the denaturing of the enzymes. So it's temperature, time and pH that denature individual enzymes. Long mashes at lower temperatures 145-150F allow the alpha enzyme enough time to work. The closer the enzyme gets to it's denaturing temperature the faster it works. Since alpha breaks up the starch molecule in the middle and beta works on the end, it's helpful that alpha has more time at lower temperatures, since it's slower at lower temps, to produce a starch molecule that beta can work on.

This breakdown occurs fairly quickly and then the amount conversion slows as time goes on. The old saying that the mash was done converting in 20 minutes is kind of true, it's the last 45 minutes that squeezes the last of the fermentable sugars out of the mash. So mashing for 60-90 minutes is a good way to insure you got everything of the grain that you can and what you got was very fermentable.

 

[Dland]

Reporting back, the brew that was mashed in at 154F had a FG of 1.012, from a SG of 1.060. This comes in a little higher than three previous batches in same cone to cone series. All were S-04 fermented at 67-68F. Other batches were; SG 1.054,-FG 1.010, SG 1.059, - FG 1.011, SG 1.060,- FG 1.009. These were all mashed in at between 150 and 151F.

Two of the grain bills probably had somewhat less diastic potential than the batch in question, being made of 50% Pilsner malt and 25% Golden Promiss, as opposed to 75% Pilsner in 154F batch. The batch with FG of 1.009 was also 75% Plisner. All the grain bills contained mostly fermentable malts, with exception being 5% Melodian in one of the other batches. All had some rye malt, in 12.5-25% of bill, not sure how diastic that is, but I think it is mostly fermentable.

This leads me to semi-scientiflcly conclude that the higher mash temp was likely responsible for .002-3 gravity points of unfermented sugars over similar mashes in the 150-151F range.