Mash and PH

[Methose]

I've been AG brewing for a while now, but not paid much attention to my PH of the actual mash itself. I checked the water, but not while a mash was happening. Just to start off, I want to go ahead and say that this has been the most confusing piece to the brewing puzzle that I've encountered yet. I've read tons of articles on the web about it, tried reading a number of forum posts as well, but I think I have confused myself even further.

I've purchased a PH meter and taken water samples in the brew I just did over the weekend, with these results:
- water PH 7.7
- water with additions (1.5 tsp Gypsum, 1 tsp Calcium Chloride) PH 7.5
- mash PH 4.8
All these were measured at 80-85 deg F

grain bill single infusion mashed at 154 deg F:
8# Marris Otter
2# Munich (9 L)
1# 8 oz Flaked Oats
12 oz Carapils
4 oz Crystal 40L
2 oz Crystal 120L

The reason why I started looking at PH of my mash, is because the horrible efficiency I have been getting (60% and below extraction rate). I'm really thrown for a loop now, because I reached the best efficiencies I've had in a while on this brew, with the PH lower than the numbers I see as recommended 5.1-5.3

Beersmith shows my efficiency at 79.1% with my OG being 1.062 on 6 gal.

confused...

 

[mabrungard]

Its possible that you drove the pH that low with the calcium salt additions, but I don't know what those additions equate to in terms of ppm in the water. Assuming your meter was freshly calibrated, it is possible to produce a pH that low, but I wouldn't expect it.

 

[Methose]

Its possible that you drove the pH that low with the calcium salt additions, but I don't know what those additions equate to in terms of ppm in the water. Assuming your meter was freshly calibrated, it is possible to produce a pH that low, but I wouldn't expect it.

I was understanding that lower than 5.1 PH makes conversion harder, but I got the best conversion I've seen in a while. Does this mean that my normal, un-modified water, brew days are even worse possibly because the PH could have been even lower than 4.8 -and the Gypsum was actually bringing it up?
Are there other factors that I'm missing here?

 

[Methose]

/bump for trying to understand Mash PH

 

[Gavin C]

If your efficiencies are that low the more imprortant things to look at are
1. Grain Crush
2. Mash thickness (go thinner)
3. Mash temperature control (accuracy and stability)
4. Sparging efficacy (this is a very broad topic)

pH is important but of much less importance from an efficiency standpoint.

Once you get all the other bits right you should have mash efficiencies over 80+ to 90+ %. Controlling mash pH can be the icing on the cake but accurate management of it is more related to refining or brightening the flavors in the beer.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

If beersmith is giving you numbers that differ from your results you need to change the data you are feeding it. It's a simple G.I.G.O scenario.

 

[chickypad]

I think Martins' point was that the 4.8 reading looks suspect with that grainbill. What meter do you have and how are you calibrating it? What water are you starting with, and what volume mash?

 

[rwing7486]

I've been AG brewing for a while now, but not paid much attention to my PH of the actual mash itself. I checked the water, but not while a mash was happening. Just to start off, I want to go ahead and say that this has been the most confusing piece to the brewing puzzle that I've encountered yet. I've read tons of articles on the web about it, tried reading a number of forum posts as well, but I think I have confused myself even further.

I've purchased a PH meter and taken water samples in the brew I just did over the weekend, with these results:
- water PH 7.7
- water with additions (1.5 tsp Gypsum, 1 tsp Calcium Chloride) PH 7.5
- mash PH 4.8
All these were measured at 80-85 deg F

grain bill single infusion mashed at 154 deg F:
8# Marris Otter
2# Munich (9 L)
1# 8 oz Flaked Oats
12 oz Carapils
4 oz Crystal 40L
2 oz Crystal 120L

The reason why I started looking at PH of my mash, is because the horrible efficiency I have been getting (60% and below extraction rate). I'm really thrown for a loop now, because I reached the best efficiencies I've had in a while on this brew, with the PH lower than the numbers I see as recommended 5.1-5.3

Beersmith shows my efficiency at 79.1% with my OG being 1.062 on 6 gal.

confused...

Are you using your tap water or 100%RO water before adding the gypsum calcium, and chloride additions? Either way you should determine what minerals your water has before adding those additions. If you are using your tap water you can submit water for testing to Ward Labs- they have a pretty quick turnaround for issuing you a report. I posted the link for the sticky below on how to go about doing that.

After you know the mineral content of your starting water I would then insert your water profile and recipe in the Bru n' water spreadsheet and see what your estimated mash pH is and then comapre that to what you get with your pH meter. Just some advice on using the pH meter is make sure you calibrate it prior to every time you brew.

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=129581

 

[rmyurick]

My questions would be:
1. How sure are you about the volume (6 gallons)? 79% is pretty high, although not ridiculously so.
2. Is the pH meter recently calibrated?

Time also helps--mashing time, and sparge time (you get a more efficient sparge if you sparge slowly, because of less mixing in the direction of flow and less maldistribution).

 

[RussPDX]

A few thoughts. First off what temp is your PH meter calibrated to? 80-85 sounds high and the PH will change based on temp. Also, my understanding from reading Water, and lots of Martin's and other posts and my own experience is that the starting PH of the water is really not that relevant. It is the water composition and the mash PH that are relevant. You need to figure out the Residual Alkalinity and work from there. If you want to really geek out on it I suggest reading Water (twice). I didn't understand most of the formula's but once I got my head around the general concepts it made it alot easier for me to understand the Bru'n water spreadsheet which is what I use now for all my brews. I am usually within .1 of the predicted PH from the spreadsheet. I have used all of my local water values in setting the sheet up. It isa bit to do the first time, but then I just have a saved copy that I can simply adjust for my next batch and that only takes a few minutes.

I will say that before I made any water adjustments I just started measuring the PH of different batches to get a sense of what my water and different grain bills was going to do. Martin states that the PH generated from the Bru'n water sheets is measured 20 minutes into the mash at room temp, so try to take all your readings at the same times. I am typically doing 2 readings right now. At 20 min in, and then at end of mash. I will want to start taking readings when I go into the fermenter and then post fermentation as well just to really plot the ph journey and get a better understanding.

 

[hanuswalrus]

+1 to making sure you are measuring all of your volumes accurately

 

[mabrungard]

I agree with Gavin that pH has only minor influence on efficiency. I find that the crush gradation and the time taken to runoff and sparge are the factors that have big impact on efficiency. Crush as fine as your system will allow and make sure that your runoff and sparging period are long. I think I'm between 30 and 45 minutes for my runoff and sparge.

 

[dmcman73]

Also, my understanding is that you want to measure your pH after you started a mash. In other words, mix grains with water, let it sit for about 10 min then pull a sample from the valve and test. The grains themselves will affect the pH of the water so adjusting it BEFORE the mash can really drive it even lower, you want to adjust directly in the mash.

Also, when you measure you SG for efficiency, are you waiting for the mash to fully drain out into your brew kettle or while it's still draining? I have made the mistake (so have others) of drawing a sample for pre-boil SG prematurely. If you don't wait until you've drained to your targeted volume before measurng, chances are you haven't extracted all of the sugars from the grain which will throw your efficiency numbers all of out of whack.

Grain crush as other have mentioned is also a very important factor as well. If the grain is not fully "cracked" then it's harder to extract the sugars from it.

 

[Methose]

Thanks guys for all the replies, I will be back with you on specific replies in a while. Work is holding me hostage at the moment.

 

[Roundhouse]

I use the Gordon Strong technique and it works wonderful. I started using it about 3 years ago and I've never made better beer. It takes all the guess work out of water and ph.

I start with RO water and treat it with a small amount of phosphoric acid to 5.5 ph. Yes, you can get a ph reading on RO water just fine. I have a temperature compensating ph meter and have found that it's actually pretty accurate with temperature but saying that, I still do everything around whatever ambient temperature is. It's close enough.

I use that water to mash only the grains that need to be mashed. Any grains that can be steeped are not mashed at this time. I add 1/2 tsp of Calcium Chloride to the mash and mix in well. Doing things this way always brings the mash ph in right around 5.2 regardless of what beer style I'm making. When the main mash is done, I do a recirculation and mashout at 168°. I always add the specialty grains to the mash at the conclusion of the main mash so they get soaked during recirc and mashout. That leaves them soaking for around a half hour or more. Yes they'll pull ph down a bit but at this point conversion is done so it doesn't matter.

I then sparge with 5.5 ph water since I treat all of my brewing water up front. I sparge until the desired volume is reached according to my efficiency calculations. There is no need to stop at a certain gravity level since you can not extract tannins with this method. Ph never rises above 6 and temperature never exceeds 170°. I add either more calcium chloride or gypsum to the kettle only depending on beer style.

I like this technique because it allows for consistency of technique across all beer styles. It completely takes the guess work out of calculations. Every single beer I brew, regardless of style, is done the exact same way all the way up through the main mash, right down to how the water is prepared. I also don't believe that starting with just any water that has many things in it and then adding yet more things to it to cancel out the things you don't want is a very logical way of doing things. That stuff is all still there. I'd rather start with almost nothing and then add only what is necessary. The only time I need to slightly change things is with my Brown Porter recipe. Brown malt is 1/3 of the grain bill and needs to be mashed. It pulls ph down. I still do everything the same right down to the 1/2 tsp CaCl in the mash but I have to add the slightest little amount of baking soda back to the mash to get to 5.2 ph. The amount is so tiny you'll never taste it so don't be scared of it. I'm talking like not even 1/8 of a tsp. It's a powerful buffer.

It's a different way of doing things but it's simple and easily repeatable.

 

[RussPDX]

I think the RO path is great if you have bad water like Gordon talks about in his writings, but if like me you are starting with water that is good but needs adjustment for style then RO is both a pain and incredibly wasteful. The RO membranes are not vert efficient so alot of water goes to waste during the process. From an environmental standpoint it is not very good considering all of the water issues we are having.

 

[Roundhouse]

I buy my water. I don't have an RO system. If your water is good and without any flavors, don't waste your time with spreadsheets and computer software to calculate what you need to add to get where you want. Just pull the ph down with phosphoric acid. Only add back CaCl or gypsum in the kettle for flavor. You can brew any style this way. Water is actually one of the simplest aspects of brewing that everyone has made way too hard.

 

[Spyk'd]

I buy my water. I don't have an RO system. If your water is good and without any flavors, don't waste your time with spreadsheets and computer software to calculate what you need to add to get where you want. Just pull the ph down with phosphoric acid. Only add back CaCl or gypsum in the kettle for flavor. You can brew any style this way. Water is actually one of the simplest aspects of brewing that everyone has made way too hard.

I don't think you're wrong in your approach and from a commercial standpoint, you do make some good, cost efficiency points, however...


...You take A LOT of the magic out of the process that is a HOBBY for many home brew fanatics...


Just say'n....

 

[funnelweb]

I agree with Gavin that pH has only minor influence on efficiency. I find that the crush gradation and the time taken to runoff and sparge are the factors that have big impact on efficiency. Crush as fine as your system will allow and make sure that your runoff and sparging period are long. I think I'm between 30 and 45 minutes for my runoff and sparge.

I'm puzzeled and a bit cofused, cause in "Mr. Palmer's newest publication "Water: A comp..." this is stated:

"The pH of the mash is important because it is a significant factor for enzyme activity and it influences the final pH of the beer. Perhaps
David Taylor said it best in The Importance of pH
Control During Brewing1: “The key point for control of
pH throughout the brewing process is during mashing. This
is due to the major influence that can be exerted at this
stage on the content and format of the buffer systems that
will operate subsequently in the wort and beer.”

What's up and what's down?

 

[Gavin C]

I'm puzzeled and a bit cofused, cause in "Mr. Palmer's newest publication "Water: A comp..." this is stated:

"The pH of the mash is important because it is a significant factor for enzyme activity and it influences the final pH of the beer. Perhaps
David Taylor said it best in The Importance of pH
Control During Brewing1: “The key point for control of
pH throughout the brewing process is during mashing. This
is due to the major influence that can be exerted at this
stage on the content and format of the buffer systems that
will operate subsequently in the wort and beer.”

What's up and what's down?

It is important but is analogous to fine tuning an engine to optimize its performance. Tweaking it here and there for more horsepower, torque or rpm.

The fine tuning will be worthless if the engine hasn't had oil put in it, or is badly designed from the get go.

The crush, consistency, temperature and effective sparge are the major players in a mash from an efficiency standpoint. Getting these right puts you in position to tinker and tweak the pH to meet your requirements for the final beer's favor, mouthfeel, head retention etc and yes, to a lesser degree, mash efficiency.

You'd have to make a concerted and deliberate effort to push the mash pH so out of range as to get low efficiency if all the other big factors are right. Pay no heed to pH but optimize the other mash mechanics and you will see consistent and adequate efficiency.

Not all will share my view but I believe it is consistent with what I have learned in theory and experienced first hand in my own limited experiences over the course of my short homebrewing hobby.

 

[mabrungard]

Yes, I'm familiar with that book. If you look at the back cover of that book, you may note my name.

Mash pH is very important in establishing the quality and taste of beer. However, it has only minor effect on efficiency. Enhancing enzymatic action has to do with the conversion of starches to sugars. Efficiency has more to do with getting those starches out of the kernels and into the wort.

 

[RM-MN]

Yes, I'm familiar with that book. If you look at the back cover of that book, you may note my name.

Mash pH is very important in establishing the quality and taste of beer. However, it has only minor effect on efficiency. Enhancing enzymatic action has to do with the conversion of starches to sugars. Efficiency has more to do with getting those starches out of the kernels and into the wort.

To me this is where BIAB shines because we can use a finely milled grain so our particle size is small and it doesn't take so long to get the conversion and getting the sugars extracted is so easy.

 

[Roundhouse]

I don't think you're wrong in your approach and from a commercial standpoint, you do make some good, cost efficiency points, however...


...You take A LOT of the magic out of the process that is a HOBBY for many home brew fanatics...


Just say'n....

It's a hobby for me too. I'm a fan of decoction mashes and will have 12 hour brew days. I just want consistency and simplifying water allows me to get that on a scale that many said wasn't possible in small batches of home brew. It has also greatly improved the flavor to the point that I'll put my beer up against anything else.

 

[Methose]

I learned a lot from this post. I currently have the Water book by my bed table, and it's great but very technical. I like to learn for the sake of learning as well as knowing more about the whole beer making process, but I do take everything with a grain of salt (pun intended) when it comes to my actual homebrewing technique and processes. I will continue to take what readings I can and document the processes I take on my often 12hour brew days, with hopes that one day I will make sense of it all

Thanks all!

Cheers!