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Mash adjustments for body in lagers

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BugAC

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I've been brewing lagers with the hochkurz decoction mash step (https://beerandbrewing.com/short-and-high-the-hochkurz-mash/). My first step is usually around 144-146, and the 2nd step is typically around 158-160. The beers finish out very dry (1.006 - 1.008) but have a lot of body to them. This is great for czech style lagers, but i find that for german style pilsners, it's a bit too much body for the style. I've tried different water profiles, eliminating any carapils, etc... and the one constant is the beer still has good body to it, which leads me to believe it's the hochkurz decoction. I've also brewed this with a similar hochkurz infusion (no decoction step) and i get the same result.

What is a recommended mash procedure for lagers to make them slightly thinner in body to get more of the "crisp" mouthfeel and drinkability? Would a simple infusion mash at a lower temp (148?) produce a thinner beer?

FWIW, i have an infusion setup, so multiple step mashes are doable, but a pain in the ass, and i'm limited in how many steps and how high i can go towards the end of the mash. I've done several turbid mash lambics and can never hit my last 2 step temps.
 
Hmm... this is a challenging question. There seems to be more factors that can cause perception of body than management of specific gravity and mash steps. Have you tried adjusting carbonation up or down? Could also be an excess of chloride in the water, perhaps eliminate chloride additions or increase sulfate? You might also be your own worst critic and no one else might notice what you believe you are noticing yourself. Which if any of these factors are at play, it's impossible for me to say, but hopefully this gives you a few ideas to explore.
 
I'm looking at some of my german pils water profiles, looks like i'm more balanced in terms of chloraide:sulfate ratio. My german pils water profile is:
Ca - 53 ppm
Mg - 5 ppm
Na - 9 ppm
SO4 - 56 ppm
Cl - 57 ppm
 
If you're hitting 1.008 and under and still think it's too thick, maybe try different malt. You could do a glucan rest if you really want to go there.

Carbonation per dmtaylor. You might also up IBUs a bit to see if it's a perception issue. A shift from Cl to SO4 a little might help.
 
Writing from the Mid-Atlantic and as a native of the Pacific Northwest that gets murdered by the humidity each year, my beers get really, really dry during July and August. The humidity whips my butt and my beers show it.

Here are some techniques that I've learned for my July and August lagers:

1) Extend your primary saccharification step. In my case, I mash in at 148F for 90min. I then follow this with a 30min step at 158F with the recirculation running. It takes a while, but the extra time is validated by the FG. It works.

2) Give some thought to your yeast strain. I used to like Diamond Lager for my July and August beers because it really sucked a beer dry. Then, about three-four years ago, it seemed to become a lot fatter. The numbers were as expected, it just felt fatter on the tongue. I'm back to using 34/70 for my spring and summer lagers and S-189 for my fall and winter lagers.

3) Rice is nice. Prior to Bismark's German Reunification efforts, some German brewers were thrilled by rice because it really does help to make a dry, pale, sprightly lager. Unfortunately, in addition to laying the groundwork for two world wars, Bismark also caved to the Bavarians and their silly purity law that was never about purity, so rice was verboten--and generations of beer drinkers suffered. Adjuncts are a tool, like any other, in your brewing toolbox. What matters is whether you're satisfied with what's in your glass. Are the guys that write polemics against adjuncts and look down their noses at beers that aren't triple decocted drinking your beer? Then #(%*% them. You don't need those clowns and you certainly don't need them in your glass. Drink what you enjoy, and if what you enjoy includes rice, drink it with pride!

Corn is also great, it's just less transparent than rice. I rarely brew a Summer lager without corn, it tastes like summer.

4) Use gypsum with measured abandon. Even in cold weather, I like my lagers dry and gypsum is an important part in getting them dry. I keep trying to make lagers with the softest, cleanest water and they always seem to come up fat, round, and fatiguing to drink. Gypsum sorts that out, but if you go too far with it, you start to get aspirin-y notes on your finish. For my 7-gal batches with DC water, I like to hit my mash with 4g of gypsum at strike, backed up by a further 1g pre-boil to reinforce what I lost in the tun. I don't use calcium chloride. I have a preference for non-iodized salt to amp the malt a bit.

5) Carbonation matters. I do not use a manifold for all my kegs, nor do I run a constant serving pressure for all my kegs. Instead, I prefer to move my CO2 line from keg to keg, providing bursts as needed to maintain an ideal (in my case, very low) serving pressure. That allows me to keep my UK ales barely carbonated, my US and German stuff lightly carbonated, and my July and August fizzy yellow swills highly carbonated. That extra Co2 bite really means something.

6) Try Bestmalz Heidelberg malt. As much as I adore my Barke, Heidelberg makes a fantastic fizzy yellow high summer beer.

7) Get serious about your pH. Mash in at 5.4, then over-acidify your sparge water to arrive at a pre-boil pH of 5.25-ish. Pull a sample at 20min and crash cool it in the freezer to ensure your wort is hitting the fermenter at pH 5.0-5.1. You'll likely need to add at least 1-2ml of 8x% lactic/phosphoric at 10min to hit this objective. It makes a world of difference and it's the main thing that I'm currently struggling with in my brewery.

That's what I currently "know," for what it's worth. What I know is always slowly changing. I hope you find this glimpse at what I currently know useful.
 
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I brew lots of light bodied lagers in summer.

As per the above excellent reply, i use an extended low temp rest, rice and a light base malt ( Love BEST heidelberg ). Light enough to disappear fast on humid summers day
 
You did not mention your original gravity, but I'm most certain you should decrease it by a couple of points.
At 11° Plato, the beer should come out nice and crisp.
 
Thanks Bramling Cross, excellent post and exactly what i'm looking for. I think i'm going to print this out and keep it around for future brews.
Just some data points from my last 2 german pils (one was an italian pils):

Italian pils
Hochkurz decoction. first step @ 144 for 40 minutes, Decocted 1.8 gallons of mash -, 2nd step 156-158.
OG 1.048
FG 1.007
Yeast - WY 2124
Water profile (distilled water):
Ca - 50
Mg - .6
Na - 6.6
SO4 - 57.1
Cl - 58.5

German Pils (Fresh hopped)
Double Infusion Mash - Protein rest @ 122 for 30 min., Sachh @ 149 for 30 min, no mash out
OG 1.048
FG 1.009
Yeast - 34/70
Water Profile (distilled): same as italian pils
Ca - 50
Mg - .6
Na - 6.6
SO4 - 57.1
Cl - 58.5

I think my changes for my next german pils will be to extend the primary sach rest, and adjust my water profile to favor more sulfates than chlorides. Rice may be the last thing i add in if the first 2 don't do the trick.

7) Get serious about your pH. Mash in at 5.4, then over-acidify your sparge water to arrive at a pre-boil pH of 5.25-ish. Pull a sample at 20min and crash cool it in the freezer to ensure your wort is hitting the fermenter at pH 5.0-5.1. You'll likely need to add at least 1-2ml of 8x% lactic/phosphoric at 10min to hit this objective. It makes a world of difference and it's the main thing that I'm currently struggling with in my brewery.
And i've been wanting to start getting into this. I've been brewing for about 14 years now, but my ph measurements start and stop at recipe development and adjustments are done with the mash usually with acidulated malt. However, i've been wanting to really nail down my processes and start utilizing my ph meter and measure at each step. At recipe development, my goal for mash ph is usually around 5.3
 
At recipe development, my goal for mash ph is usually around 5.3

That's a great target for lagers, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I've learned to aim at pH 5.4 because my records suggest that my rig returns better efficiency at 5.4, so I'm happy to mash higher knowing that I'll bring the pH down later in the process. If I had to fly blind w/o a pH meter, I'd likely target pH 5.3.
 
Lagers can have “body”? Usually they’re just head. And maybe some legs.

What I mean is, I thought they were a bit thin by design. I’m trying to imagine one with more… viscosity?
 
Lagers can have “body”? Usually they’re just head. And maybe some legs.

What I mean is, I thought they were a bit thin by design. I’m trying to imagine one with more… viscosity?
Try a doppelbock sometime. They're not supposed to have a super thick body, but... they often do, or it's noticeably more than other lagers. And there are tons of other examples of lagers with at least a moderate body. Maibock is another. Bocks in general.
 
It's more a question of perception. Given a measured final gravity, say "objectively" in the dry area for a lager, say 1.008. If you don't hop it at all, 0 IBU, that beer will taste sweet and thick. If you hop it to 40 IBUS, it will taste bitter and thin. Mouthfeel is therefore more than just gravity.
 
I'm with Bobby that your beer is plenty dry at 1.008 and this is not a mashing issue unless your pils malt is somehow much higher in protein than other pils malts. What temperature are you fermenting at with 34/70 and are you spunding?

Glycerol production increases with increased fermentation temperature. Glycercol imparts body and a slight sweetness - it is the main way a lot of tasters are able to distinguish beers fermented with Kveik at high temperatures. One of my main suspicions as to why S-189 leaves my beers feeling heavier, maltier, and sweeter than 34/70 despite finishing at the same final gravity is that S-189 produces more - I have absolutely nothing to back this up, it's just a guess.

You might prefer a 1.5:1 SO4:Cl ratio. It's not that extreme a change but it would enhance dryness and hop very slightly.

How many IBU's are you targeting? Are you correcting for the fact that you are using whole cones rather than pellets, which impart slightly less bitterness? Are you correcting for hop age, loss of alpha-acids due to time? I wonder if you are just low on IBU's. Low IBU's can make even a German Pils seem flabby.
 
I'm with Bobby that your beer is plenty dry at 1.008 and this is not a mashing issue unless your pils malt is somehow much higher in protein than other pils malts. What temperature are you fermenting at with 34/70 and are you spunding?

Glycerol production increases with increased fermentation temperature. Glycercol imparts body and a slight sweetness - it is the main way a lot of tasters are able to distinguish beers fermented with Kveik at high temperatures. One of my main suspicions as to why S-189 leaves my beers feeling heavier, maltier, and sweeter than 34/70 despite finishing at the same final gravity is that S-189 produces more - I have absolutely nothing to back this up, it's just a guess.

You might prefer a 1.5:1 SO4:Cl ratio. It's not that extreme a change but it would enhance dryness and hop very slightly.

How many IBU's are you targeting? Are you correcting for the fact that you are using whole cones rather than pellets, which impart slightly less bitterness? Are you correcting for hop age, loss of alpha-acids due to time? I wonder if you are just low on IBU's. Low IBU's can make even a German Pils seem flabby.
Thanks VT. I am fermenting around 50-52, but i do perform a diacetyl rest around 60-64 for a few days before lagering. I'm wondering if this may be part of the culprit.

For the fresh hop, they are used at the whirlpool only. All of my IBU's are with pellet hops until i'm able to harvest enough to make a 100% fresh hop pilsner. As i understand it, i need to use 6-8 times the amount of wet hops compared to pellets.

I was also thinking of a 1.25-1.5:1 ratio as well.

Thanks for the informaiton!
 
This is an interesting thread as usually, the issue is the other way around - too little attenuation resulting in a thick beer. Your numbers and mash procedure seem right in line yet your outcome is not as expected. Something seems a bit off? Could there be a chance for a measurement error?

How about your beer compared to fresh commercial examples for the same style? The commercial examples would be in the same range of OG/FG but how do you taste them? Do they seem thin or thick?
 
This is an interesting thread as usually, the issue is the other way around - too little attenuation resulting in a thick beer. Your numbers and mash procedure seem right in line yet your outcome is not as expected. Something seems a bit off? Could there be a chance for a measurement error?

How about your beer compared to fresh commercial examples for the same style? The commercial examples would be in the same range of OG/FG but how do you taste them? Do they seem thin or thick?
I don't think it's a measurement issue. Other beers have been pretty accurate using multiple different hydrometers. As compared to commercial examples, that's why i think my beer has more body to it. We have some good examples down in New Orleans of great german pils, and they are more snappy than the ones i'm making. Thanks to this thread, and just looking at my past recipes, i have an idea it's simple water chemistry, and i need to adjust my sulfate to chloride ratio more.
 
Sorry to bring this up but any time a seasoned brewer is in a thread about lagers I think if bringing in low oxygen practices. These really clear up a beer's flavor and make them brighter with no mud. Have you come across any of these techniques? How about trub separation? Is your mash runoff clear going into the boil kettle?

I also like the conversation about pH. The German texts say to mash at pH 5.6 with a knockout down to pH 5.1 to 5.3 All kinds of little things add up in pils/lager brewing.

How about carbonation? Are you spunding? (natural carbonation) Traditional German brewing practice is to bring active yeast into the lagering phase which is associated with developing the crisp attributes.
 
I've been pretty stringent in my o2 practices for years now. Something i learned while brewing IPA's. I control oxygen suck back at cold crashing, as well as closed transfers to kegs, and purging with CO2 after each gravity reading, which is very minimal.

For trub separation, i use whilfloc tabs. I also use the trubinator in the kettle, as well as 2 other filters before the beer gets into the fermenter.

No spunding, using glass carboys for fermenting. There is some residual CO2 that is captured due to my cold crash guardian process i use, but it's nothing compared to spunding.
 
Very good. I will take it a step farther with what I was mentioning.

1) Low oxygen on the hot side. This is removing oxygen from your strike water and trying to keep the O2 levels low during the mash.

2) Clear mash wort. This is about leaving everything behind in the mash tun and transferring very clear wort into the boil kettle. Brewtan B helps a lot with this when added to the mash.

3) Spunding as in naturally carbonating your kegs. This is done by transferring your fermenting beer with about 3-5 gravity points remaining. So if your beer is to finish at 1.008, you would transfer to your keg at 1.013. You would then let it finish in the closed keg with a sounding valve to keep it at the desired volume of CO2. Not only is this natural carbonation, it totally scrubs any oxygen from the finished beer without needing to transfer again.

A homebrewer can say these three things don't matter and that is anyone's right but if you want to brew great lagers, I would give them a try as they do matter if you care about it.
 
1) Low oxygen on the hot side. This is removing oxygen from your strike water and trying to keep the O2 levels low during the mash.
I don't know how i'd control this from a homebrewer perspective. I am not really concerned with this either. My beers, overall, are pretty good, and not sure if this would make an impact on my styles. I use distilled water and add the grains to the strike water. Don't think i'm picking up any excess O2 in the process.
2) Clear mash wort. This is about leaving everything behind in the mash tun and transferring very clear wort into the boil kettle. Brewtan B helps a lot with this when added to the mash.
As stated earlier, whirlfloc tabs have really made a difference in dropping out the particulate matter, as well as triple filter process. I'm controlling this about as best as one can at the homebrew level. I don't know how much difference filtering even more would do.
3) Spunding as in naturally carbonating your kegs. This is done by transferring your fermenting beer with about 3-5 gravity points remaining. So if your beer is to finish at 1.008, you would transfer to your keg at 1.013. You would then let it finish in the closed keg with a sounding valve to keep it at the desired volume of CO2. Not only is this natural carbonation, it totally scrubs any oxygen from the finished beer without needing to transfer again.
I don't do this. I prefer a diacetyl rest in my lagers, and i let my beers lager for about 2-3 weeks before i transfer to a keg before finishing the lagering process. I like to have most of the yeast settle out in the fermenter before i transfer to keg.

Overall, i'm happy with my lagers, but i'm just trying to dial down each individual style. My latest czech pils on tap is probably my best version of the style, and i have a New Zealand pils in the fermenter right now, and my next lager is probably either an italian pils, or a helles.
 
Just to reiterate - #2 is about the mash, not the boil. Whirlfloc is used in the boil.
My mistake. I vorlauf and don't stop until the mash is pretty clear. No grain particles present. I'll look into Brewtan B for future batches. Thanks!
 
I don't know how i'd control this from a homebrewer perspective.
There's an entire forum devoted to the topic.
I am not really concerned with this either.
Many (most?) homebrewers (myself included) have not adopted hot side O2 mitigation practices. That doesn't mean that hot side oxidation isn't a real thing.
Don't think i'm picking up any excess O2 in the process.
We are. Mash water contains oxygen unless we do something to remove it. A mash exposed to the air picks up oxygen. And apparently things can get oxidized pretty quickly.

None of that means that you or I have to adopt hot side LoDO practices, but we shouldn't be dismissive of what people like @Bassman2003 say.
 

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